Saturday BOD in Minneapolis

[mjosparky 3]

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"Before you shoot your mouth off get your facts straight. Mike is not on the BOD or work for USPA.

You might want to apologize for you remarks.

Sparky"

I've no idea what MikeT's actual role within USPA is. I really don't care, TBH. He tried to defend stealing, w/a BS excuse. Don't hold your breath waiting for that apology, Sparky. It isn't coming. I'll be damned if I'll apologize to a thief, or those who cover for them...

You been around 3 years and think you have this all firgured out. You haven't seen the ball since kick off.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[PiLFy 0]

"You been around 3 years and think you have this all firgured out."

I never said that. Don't put words in my mouth. I know what I know...

[ufk22 32]

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"If you have a real license, I can verify it at USPA website in a minute. If you have a signed card I have no way to be sure it's valid if I don't know the person who signed it."

The USPA license will show that a card was filled out properly.

But just a stamp on the card tells me nothing. I don't even know if the person who signed it has a current rating, let alone any rating, or if it was just filled out by the jumper themselves. Also, mistakes are made. I just dealt with one a couple of weeks age, an I-E signed off on a card for an Instructor rating but forgot to sign one line. This is just a papaerwork thing, the guy had done everything, but it happens.


If presented w/a signed A card. I'd say a quick phone call will tell you more about the jumper's abilities.

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So, on a busy day at the DZ, I'm supposed to take the time to find a phone number and call the instructor who signed off the card (assuming I can even read the signature), and that person will not also be busy but sitting around waiting for my call. And if that person isn't available, you would have no trouble sitting until I can reach them?


Skydiving is a small world. Don't most of you Instructor guys N gals already know each other, more or less?

Yup, all the wuffo's think we all know each other. I actually DO know every skydiver in the world.


Either by card or license, a certified instructor has aid the jumper meets the requirements. Are you saying you don't trust some of the instructors? Or, you just don't trust their penmanship?

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I'm saying I don't trust every jumper or jumper wanna-be.

I don't have a clue? I know BS when I hear it. I know a money-grab when I see one...

No, you don't have a clue. And I also know BS when I hear it, and most of what you are saying is BS.

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[robinheid 0]

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"You been around 3 years and think you have this all firgured out."

I never said that. Don't put words in my mouth. I know what I know...

LOL...

But you don't yet know what you don't know.*

44



* Like, fer instance, the fact that I've been to more funerals than you have jumps, many of them for guys who knew what they knew right up until impact.

SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

[PiLFy 0]

"But just a stamp on the card tells me nothing. I don't even know if the person who signed it has a current rating, let alone any rating, or if it was just filled out by the jumper themselves."

First question I'm always asked at a new DZ is: Who signed you off? A quick phone call made by one of the girls in manifest verifies I trained/graduated @XYZ DZ. Problem solved. You say it doesn't work, but it has for me at three different DZs.

"Also, mistakes are made. I just dealt with one a couple of weeks age, an I-E signed off on a card for an Instructor rating but forgot to sign one line. This is just a papaerwork thing, the guy had done everything, but it happens."

Not my problem. USPA certifies an instructor. USPA can clean up his or her paperwork. No need or logic in penalizing students for that.

"So, on a busy day at the DZ, I'm supposed to take the time to find a phone number and call the instructor who signed off the card (assuming I can even read the signature), and that person will not also be busy but sitting around waiting for my call. And if that person isn't available, you would have no trouble sitting until I can reach them?"

See above. It's worked just fine for me.

"Yup, all the wuffo's think we all know each other. I actually DO know every skydiver in the world."

You're very funny... Sarcasm is counter-productive. All the instructors in my area know one another. They also know peeps from around the country. You knew perfectly well what I meant. The DZs I go to keep records on students. You needn't get the specific instructor on the phone for verification. You don't have to personally know an instructor, anyway. If he/she is rated? They signed off on the student. You don't blanket trust all instructors? Take it up w/USPA.

"I'm saying I don't trust every jumper or jumper wanna-be."

So, make a call. Or, have someone else do it for you.

"No, you don't have a clue. And I also know BS when I hear it, and most of what you are saying is BS."

There's your second bit of sarcasm, & hostility. I was hoping for a useful dialogue to develop in this thread. Looks like it won't be w/you. I didn't come here to argue. We're done.

[PiLFy 0]

"LOL... But you don't yet know what you don't know.*"


* "Like, fer instance, the fact that I've been to more funerals than you have jumps, many of them for guys who knew what they knew right up until impact."

Anything better to add? Or, you just wanted to use that same tired, old adage again? Never said I knew it all. I said I know BS when I hear it. I don't need mad skills or a rating to see this for the money-grab that it is.

[robinheid 0]

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"LOL... But you don't yet know what you don't know.*"


* "Like, fer instance, the fact that I've been to more funerals than you have jumps, many of them for guys who knew what they knew right up until impact."

Anything better to add? Or, you just wanted to use that same tired, old adage again? Never said I knew it all. I said I know BS when I hear it. I don't need mad skills or a rating to see this for the money-grab that it is.

LOL... one of the things you don't know that you don't know is that you should never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity.

Seeking to have the prospective licensee pay for the sloppiness of the people responsible for signing them off is just a dumb way to handle it.

Jan can speak more to this because I'm not privy to the details, but I suspect that this dumb proposal is essentially revenue-neutral -- they're looking for a bandaid, not a solution, and definitely not a revenue stream.

In the meantime, it's very curious to see somebody get his panties in such a wad over a few one-time $$$. Given your... passion, it seems to me that you would serve both yourself and the sport better by reserving that... passion for something a bit more consequential.

But hey, what do I know?

44


P.S. Just so you know, it's mad skillz, you know.

SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

[PiLFy 0]

"Seeking to have the prospective licensee pay for the sloppiness of the people responsible for signing them off is just a dumb way to handle it."

If you agree. Why are you breaking my chops?

"Jan can speak more to this because I'm not privy to the details, but I suspect that this dumb proposal is essentially revenue-neutral -- they're looking for a bandaid, not a solution, and definitely not a revenue stream."

Dunno about that. Don't most jumpers fade away from the sport after five-ish years? What percentage of those jumpers never get any higher license than their A? A large percentage of such revolving door A licenses might add up to a significant piece of change. Grabbing more money while letting the problems continue unaddressed, isn't helping the sport grow & prosper.

"In the meantime, it's very curious to see somebody get his panties in such a wad over a few one-time $$$. Given your... passion, it seems to me that you would serve both yourself and the sport better by reserving that... passion for something a bit more consequential."

It's not the amount of money. It's the principle. We all face a bunch of weasels in our lives who try to steal $50 here, $100 there... USPA is joining the weasels w/this latest policy. I'll take a more active interest in learning about USPA's politics. But, not if it's controlled by thieves. Oh, & they're Hanes briefs, BTW...

[ParaHog 0]

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Mike Turoff

Expertise

expert/master parachutist and an Instructor Examiner in the sport of Skydiving. Mike is a licensed (jump) pilot and parachute rigger, who is an analytical chemist in the "regular working world." As a dedicated instructor, Mike has made over 3,400 jumps since 1977. Mike has contributed to many of the training materials and exams used by USPA and the sport. He has authored numerous articles dealing with safety and training practices that have appeared in both Parachutist and Skydiving magazines. Mike participates as an evaluator at AFF Training Camps and Certification Courses and is a rated to perform Tandem instruction using both the Relative Workshop and Strong Enterprises gear. Mike is co-author of "Parachuting, The Skydiver`s Handbook and the CD-ROM text for "Skydiving, A Multimedia Reference."

Now ask him how long it has been since he actually exercised any of those jumping, rigging, instructing or jump pilot skills.

Mike Turoff is now running for the BOD, since they changed the rules and he's no longer required to gather a certain number of signatures to qualify. He's always wanted to be on the board before, but he's never been widely liked locally, and he could never get enough signatures to qualify to be on the ballot.

Now he's promoting that great-sounding resume of experience, but what he's not telling anyone is that he hasn't done any skydiving related activities in about 10 years now. No jumping. No rigging. No jump-piloting. No instructing.

And I think if you don't stay active as an instructor, or other rating, fulfilling those duties a certain number of times per year, then your rating lapses and you're no longer considered qualified. And yet he's still claiming to be an instructor and more.

Since the new rules will now allow him to be on the ballot, he's counting on the ignorance of nationwide voters who don't realize he's not actually an active skydiver any more. You certainly wouldn't know that from the above resume. They'll vote for him based upon his given resume of experience, which doesn't actually apply any more - he's not current, not by a long shot.

Are those the actions of someone who is being straight-forward and honest? Is that the kind of person you want running the USPA?

He'll probably get away with it and get elected anyway... His long term plan to take over the world is at hand!

[mjosparky 3]

“If you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.” Will Rogers

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[PiLFy 0]

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“If you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.” Will Rogers

Would you like me to unblock you from sending me more of those profane, personal attack-laden PMs, Spark? Too bad. You were managing your online anger so well for a while...

Disagreeing w/you doesn't put me in a hole. Neither of us will change our views on this. We've nothing more to say to each other.

[ufk22 32]

Ignorance can be cured. Stupidity can't.

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[PiLFy 0]

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Ignorance can be cured. Stupidity can't.

Right back atchya, Bill.

[skyjumpenfool 2]

Each of us needs to be politically active to earn the right to have an opinion. Where USPA is concerned, I like to talk to my RD from time to time and discuss my opinions and “point of view”. I also vote for the people I think will do a good job, then I like to keep an eye on how they perform. If I’m unhappy, I’ll vote another way next election. The other option I believe I have is to run for office myself if I feel I can do a better job.

The point of this is, quit your bi+(#ing and vote. Or, run for office and see how hard making these decisions can be.

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[PiLFy 0]

Hello,

"I also vote for the people I think will do a good job, then I like to keep an eye on how they perform. If I’m unhappy, I’ll vote another way next election."

Yet, USPA continues to push that demo team funded by our monies. None of the outraged posters I read in that thread voted for that. It's still going on, though. It would appear significant others weren't happy w/this A license money-grab, either. Yet, it still occurred... What about Parahog's accusations? Did one of MikeT's buddies clear the way to help get him on the dole? I don't think I ever saw an opportunity to vote on that one, either.

You better believe I'll vote on issues when they come up. If the board is going to have a closed meeting, & screw us, anyway? I'd say that's a problem. That's not bitching.

[hillson 0]

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I know a money-grab when I see one...

If someone is spending $3-4k to go from zero to 25 jump hero what is an extra $30? I mean honestly...one spends 25 bucks per jump and then walks around with a balled up piece of shit piece of paper for a license?

At a certain point I'd wonder why someone has a couple of hundred jumps in a log book and a ratty A card held together with scotch tape.

[PiLFy 0]

"If someone is spending $3-4k to go from zero to 25 jump hero what is an extra $30?"

Again, it's the principle. $30 X how many jumpers? This latest policy change isn't even going to fix the problem. It is going to give them another revenue stream to spend however they want. Dunno about you. I'm thoroughly sick of various organizations hitting me up for only another $30. We have to put up w/it from state & federal agencies, for now. We shouldn't be getting the same treatment from our own...

[mjosparky 3]

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“If you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.” Will Rogers

Would you like me to unblock you from sending me more of those profane, personal attack-laden PMs, Spark? Too bad. You were managing your online anger so well for a while...

Disagreeing w/you doesn't put me in a hole. Neither of us will change our views on this. We've nothing more to say to each other.

Quit responding like a grade school kid. If you look around I am not the only one you are disagreeing with.
I like your style, if you can’t be right you are wrong with conviction.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[PiLFy 0]

"If you look around I am not the only one you are disagreeing with."

I'm not the only one in this thread who disagrees w/USPA's policy change. The usual DZ.com peanut gallery attacking a Newbie, isn't any surprise... Where's MikeT? Where are the other board members we know frequent this site? Awful quiet in here w/just the few of you slinging mud.

[popsjumper 2]

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Canopy proficiency card: some minor changes will be made to include changing the order of items in the card. Practice flairs with open and closed eyes will not be removed. Front riser turns will be removed from jump #2. Jumps 3 & 4 will be switched. Practicing stalls should be practiced before brake turns are practiced. Cross wind landings will remain in jump #4. The card may suggest an order of performing these actions but the order will not be mandatory.

So why in the hell bother with the time and expense of making changes?????

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A-stamped license card: There will be a 60 day limit to the use of the card as a current license. After that period, there must be an officially issued license (the card must be submitted to USPA HQ for authentication and issuance of a valid A-license) with the appropriate license fee.

Personally, I don't understand why USPA ever agreed to letting the completed proficiency card stand for a license in the first place. Simple solution is to make the card just what it is - an application form. You complete the application form as it stands and send it in to be reviewed for accuracy and completion and wait for your license to arrive. You're still a student until it arrives.

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Safety and Training:
Instructional rating course pre-requisites: No action resulted for any change to those pre-requisites.

The one place where, IMO, changes are most needed....*SIGH*

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Wind Tunnel survey results: No wind tunnel time will be allowed to be considered as freefall time for the purpose of obtaining a USPA rating.

Well, they got something right this time around.

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Age requirement: The previous motion referencing the age requirements for jumping requested by the equipment manufacturers’ representative was deleted and as such, no reference to the age requirements for use of a manufacturer’s equipment will be referenced in the USPA’s documentation.

Ummmmm...why?

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Randy Schroeder’s request for waiving the jump requirements to renew his ratings of record was approved. This is because Randy is capable of conducting first jump courses and evaluations as a course examiner but is physically medically unable to jump anymore at this time.

This is good. I'll probably be needing that waiver myself next year.

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Group membership:
A new group membership designation of a “Foreign Affiliate” member is being created for all non-US based dropzones.

Ummmmmmm....and just how is that going to mesh with current USPA GM requirements when other countries play by entirely different rules?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[MikeTJumps 4]

MikeT was right there contributing to the discussion but he (me) is not a voting member! I'm running for a National Director slot this time. There will be a significant change in the upcoming BOD this time. Get the people to vote!

Mike Turoff
Instructor Examiner, USPA
Co-author of Parachuting, The Skydiver's Handbook

[MikeTJumps 4]

Just for the record, your alleged facts are terribly wrong. I have been to busy running a Civil Air Patrol squadron these past four years to be current as an instructor and I voluntarily allowed my ratings and jumping activity to lapse. As to not being well liked locally, well, such is life. I had plenty of signatures to get on the ballot but the last time, several were ruled ineligible due to lapses in those members' memberships. As to flying, I fly Cessnas regularly and as to rigging, I am a current rigger. Just because I don't do other peoples' rigs doesn't mean I'm not current in that profession.

Before you get all riled up and try to condemn me, learn more about me personally! You may be surprised to learn that I've been to the USPA BOD meetings almost continuously since 1997 and I've been an advisor to the Safety and Training Committee for most of those years. I am also the PIA's official representative to the USPA BOD. I don't get paid by anyone to attend those meetings.

Question to the original complaining poster: What is it that you feel I have stolen? I know nothing about what you are talking about.

Become part of the solution instead of being in the peanut gallery as part of the problem!

Mike Turoff
Instructor Examiner, USPA
Co-author of Parachuting, The Skydiver's Handbook

[PiLFy 0]

"MikeT was right there contributing to the discussion but he (me) is not a voting member! I'm running for a National Director slot this time. There will be a significant change in the upcoming BOD this time."

Yet, your original post declared you would've voted as they did. That's not change. Why do you support taking more monies from members, for a problem that won't be fixed by the change? It's an asinine position. Defend it.

[PiLFy 0]

"Question to the original complaining poster: What is it that you feel I have stolen? I know nothing about what you are talking about."

You want to get elected to the BoD, but display such poor reading comprehension? It's all right here in the thread.

"Become part of the solution instead of being in the peanut gallery as part of the problem!"

I am. While you're at it. Explain how the USPA-backed demo team is good for the members' teams it undercuts w/USPA membership monies...

[MikeTJumps 4]

Beats me! I have nothing to do with that decision.

Mike Turoff
Instructor Examiner, USPA
Co-author of Parachuting, The Skydiver's Handbook