shah269 0 #1 September 11, 2012 A few weeks back I was jumping at a new drop zone and it was the last jump of the day so it was just me and a tandem so the DZ utilized their Cessna. We flew up to 10k and due to the tandem being really really tall the tandem went out first. I was told to give a 10 second count. I was wearing just basic ballistic motorcycle pants and a t shirt and wanted to work on doing some back flips front flips and seeing if I could even start a sit fly. I knew I was going to be very squirrelly in the air. I clearly indicated this to the tandem master and he asked me to give him a count of 10. The tandem went out, I slowly counted to 10 looked at the pilot to make sure everything was ok and went out. I did a few flips and tried to sit and ended up on my head...ok then pulled up to a belly track at a little north of 7k ft. I saw the canopy of the tandem deploy. Assuming he was at 5k ft I had a 2k ft separation vertically and they were behind me by say 400ft. I was in a track so I could see them behind me. I tightened up my track and pushed my right shoulder down so as to angle my track away from their perceived direction of movement. Every now and then I would glance over my shoulder to make sure I was in the clear. When I was below at about 4k ft I got stable waved off big and deployed. We both landed just fine and after I profusely apologized to the tandem master. We spoke about it and knew I was above him and was looking out for me. He commended me on tracking away and we spoke more about the situation. In case an odd situation where a tandem goes out first before a belly flopper like me. Should I just give them 20 seconds? And work my way back for a long spot? Or should I forgo the acrobatic training and track perpendicular to the jump run so as to ensure I have the greatest separation from the tandem. However I understand now more than ever why tandems go last.Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay. The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
likestojump 3 #2 September 11, 2012 how about : spot the tandem as they leave and fall away instead of blindly dashing out the door after 10 seconds ? It's kinda like spotting ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shah269 0 #3 September 11, 2012 So spot them till they deploy? Or spot them as to see where they are going and go the other direction? Oh sorry I forgot to state that I started tracking perpendicular to the jump run but my flipping and attempted sit flying was so bad i ended up moving back on to jump run. Or I can just stop being silly and not try sitting or getting too unstable. Just to be on the safe side?Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay. The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #4 September 11, 2012 Quotemy flipping and attempted sit flying was so bad i ended up moving back on to jump run. So you tracked up jump run. What did you need our help figuring out, again?"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shah269 0 #5 September 11, 2012 QuoteQuotemy flipping and attempted sit flying was so bad i ended up moving back on to jump run. So you tracked up jump run. What did you need our help figuring out, again? Well not tracked...flipped and back slid I guess. Just want to make sure I did the right thing? should I have pulled as soon as i saw them under me? Should I have tracked forward? Should I have tried to get behind them? I went right? Was that right? I don't know...I only have 85 jumps and I'm asking how i could have done a better job or if what i did was the right thing?Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay. The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DcloudZ 0 #6 September 11, 2012 One thing of critical importance when starting to freefly, in your case sit fly is to position yourself perpendicular to the jump run when attempting. This is because you will likely be moving forward or backward without realizing it and it is harder to tell since you don't have a point of reference in the sky. I'm not saying this may have helped avoid this particular situation but it is something that my instructors taught me and it is something I never would have thought of otherwise. Glad nothing happened and it doesn't seem like you passed too close to the tandem either. Blue skies "Better to have a short life that is full of what you like doing than a long life spent in a miserable way." -Alan Watts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grimmie 173 #7 September 11, 2012 Go first the next time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yoink 321 #8 September 11, 2012 Any time you're exiting out of the usual sequence, in this case AFTER a tandem, you need to keep in mind that it's an unusual skydive and increase your paranoia levels a couple of notches. Start THINKING. Give a good long count, and make sure you're watching the tandem when they go. Try and keep them (or at the very least their general area) in vision during your skydive - if you're doing maneuvers that are likely to have you moving all over the place, or likely to lose orientation, save them to another jump. Tandems have a BIG 'don't fuck around' zone of airspace around them. Get some basic coaching for freefly BEFORE you start trying to figure it out on your own - even just a few jumps. It'll help in the long run as you won't have to unlearn a shitty position. It'll also be the quickest way to get all the sliding under control. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #9 September 12, 2012 QuoteShould I just give them 20 seconds? No, what you should do is inform yourself of the upper level winds and the speed of the aircraft on jumprun. Provided the plane is flying into the wind on jumprun, subtract the wind speed of the uppers from the airspeed of the aircraft, and you'll end up with the ground speed of the plane. Use this number to determine the exit seperation between groups. If you're planning on a dive where you anticipate sliding around the sky, factor that into your determination of exit timing. There's no guesswork invovled, just math and science. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DBCOOPER 1 #10 September 12, 2012 How does one inform themselves of the actual upper level winds? From the 12 hour forecast? The only way I know of is a GPS or Aspen. Do a math calculation base on indicated airspeed and wind speed? With 85 jumps? How about suggesting something practical. It was him and a tandem in a 182...How about something like the runway is 2500 feet long or so, so give them half a runway lenght or something... Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #11 September 12, 2012 QuoteHow does one inform themselves of the actual upper level winds? Ask the pilot. Ditto for how fast the plane will be flying. The truth is that these are just 'reference' numbers. If the uppers are anything from 10 to 20 knots, you can use a shorter time between groups. 20 to 30 knots, you need to start adding time, even more so for 30 to 40, and so on. The speed of the aircraft can also be approximated, with a 182 doing 'about 70 or 75 knots', and a Caravan or Otter doing 'about 85 or 90 knots'. None of these calculations have to be that exact, as the task doesn't require that type of precision. The idea is to get him to understand the concept, and then apply it to the current situation. Using 'half a runway length' only applies to a DZ with a runway twice as long as your desired seperation, and if the winds are blowing at all that day, you might be a mile + away from your 'reference point' (the runway). Again, it's just simple math and science, with basic estimates being good enough. Since there is a way to 'calulate' the exit seperation, and it applies to every load he'll ever be on, we might as well tell him the right way to proceed. It's the old, 'Teach a man to fish....' routine. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DBCOOPER 1 #12 September 12, 2012 I got to tell you a pilot in a non GPS equiped 182 has no idea what the actual winds or his actual ground speed are.Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #13 September 12, 2012 QuoteI got to tell you a pilot in a non GPS equiped 182 has no idea what the actual winds or his actual ground speed are. I would venture to say that it would depend on the pilot, and even then, the vast majority of planes will have some sort of GPS available. A basic GPS can be had for very little money, and while they might not help you fly an approach in actual IFR, they certainly can give you distance to a point, direction of flight, and ground speed. I'm pretty sure there are jumpers currently equipped with similar (or better) technology for the purposes of tracking wingsuit flights. I'll stand by my method of teaching the guy to fish. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shah269 0 #14 September 12, 2012 Thank you everone, i greatly appreciate the info! Though it was safe and I was far enough away it was still too close for me. Thank youLife through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay. The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hchunter614 0 #15 September 12, 2012 Also, be sure you know which direction jump run is by using landmarks on the ground (ie, jumprun is parallel to that road and going towards the hills). Then you can check your heading against that and adjust so you're not going up/down jump run, especially before you start tracking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
5.samadhi 0 #16 September 12, 2012 QuoteQuoteShould I just give them 20 seconds? No, what you should do is inform yourself of the upper level winds and the speed of the aircraft on jumprun. Provided the plane is flying into the wind on jumprun, subtract the wind speed of the uppers from the airspeed of the aircraft, and you'll end up with the ground speed of the plane. Use this number to determine the exit seperation between groups. If you're planning on a dive where you anticipate sliding around the sky, factor that into your determination of exit timing. There's no guesswork invovled, just math and science. hey dave, why do you have to use math and science when you can use "looking and common sense" - ie looking at the ground to determine how fast you are moving. Crawling along, that means strong wind and you need longer separation maybe 20+ even. Really booking it, probably enough time for a climbout maybe 5 seconds. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #17 September 12, 2012 Quotehey dave, why do you have to use math and science when you can use "looking and common sense" - ie looking at the ground to determine how fast you are moving. Looking down at the ground from 10k to 14k AGL while sticking your head out of a moving aricraft is not going to produce reliable results from different jumpers. Clouds, haze, and jumper perception will all conspire to produce different results for each jumper. Also, that's a 'reactive' plan, in that you have to be in the plane on jumprun (with your head out of the door) to make the determination. Using the uopper winds and aircraft speed is a 'proactive' plan in that you can gather that info before you board the plane, and thus have a plan in place before take off. In this case, sticking your head out of the door and making a SWAG might have been OK, being that he was the sole jumper left in the plane. In most other cases, there are more people/groups involved, so having the plan in place before baording becomes more important to overall safety. Again, when math and science are available, that's te preferred choice to 'common sense', which have seen by example has proven to not be so 'common'. For example, who would believe that a jumper would argue the break-off protocols of a bigger-way skydive, only to later reveal that it was all moot to them because they only do hop n pops anyway? That's uncommon for sure. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydude2000 3 #18 September 12, 2012 Hey Dave, Can you clarify this for me? You say you can leave less time for separation if the upper windspeeds are lower? I'm assuming that's not based on freefall drift, but because the airspeed of the aircraft would be high enough to increase horizontal separation? I always thought higher upper winds meant you could leave less separation because there would be more freefall drift. Maybe it's backwards in my head, I just want to make sure it makes sense. Thanks PULL!! or DIE!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jclalor 12 #19 September 12, 2012 Jump at Lodi, One tandem and camera always exits first before fun-jumpers. This keeps you very alert if your jumping next and you want to pull below 5,000 ft. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #20 September 12, 2012 Provided the plane is flying into wind, higher wind speed equals lower ground speed. It takes longer for the plane to fly 1000ft across the ground from one exit point to the next, so you need more time between groups. Vice versa for lower winds, the plane will get from exit point to exit point faster, so less time between groups. Freefall drift ends up being a wash because all groups are effected the same. There are differences based on freefly vs RW, but that's why RW groups exit first. They drift further based on the additional freefall time allowed by their slower (than freefly) fall rates. Aside from exit order, freefall drift is not a factor in exit separation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
curmudgeon 0 #21 September 12, 2012 I'm not sure that using groundspeed is the best way to calculate seperation...shouldn't we be using the winds at opening altitude as our frame of reference? It seems to me that their speed and direction can either add to, or nullify, the separation based on the plane's ground speed..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,381 #22 September 12, 2012 >.shouldn't we be using the winds at opening altitude as our frame of reference? That is more accurate. However, since the winds at opening are almost always lower than the winds at altitude (and from the same direction) then using groundspeed almost always gives you _more_ separation than you expect. And is a lot easier. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Krip 2 #23 September 13, 2012 Hi #2 You've made 85 jumps in 3 yr's and made 7k posts on DZ.com during the same time period.Jump more and post less.R. One Jump Wonder Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shah269 0 #24 September 13, 2012 Quote Hi #2 You've made 85 jumps in 3 yr's and made 7k posts on DZ.com during the same time period.Jump more and post less.R. Sorry I will jump more..I was going for my MBA...so i could only jump once a month now it's every other week! Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay. The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #25 September 13, 2012 Quote how about : spot the tandem as they leave and fall away instead of blindly dashing out the door after 10 seconds ? It's kinda like spotting ... Are you saying to use some version of the 45 degree rule? Nope, time separation is fine, but you have to track in the right direction. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
