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peregrinerose

In light of the Velo Guy thread...

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WTF? Who is putting new jumpers on elliptical canopies to begin with? Why are instructors encouraging these guys to downsize to the point that they are willing to serve as references regarding how conservative they are?.........

I was given names and numbers of DZO, rigger, and AFFI to call by the first guy. Never called because no matter what they said, I wasn't trading canopies.



I'd call them anyway. I doubt the instructors are 'encouraging' the newbs. But I do bet the newbs are either lying about it. Or taking their instructor comments WAY out of context.

the DZO/Rigger/AFFI deserve to know how their name and reputation is being hijacked

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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I actually don't completely agree with your dz outrage from what you described.
True that if he was told not to jump then he should have not lied and jumped it and that part of outrage I get.
170 may be bit too small (1.1 loading?), but what if he had a 190?
Is that too small at 35 jumps?

I was about 190 when I started and after jumping a Navigator and Voyager 240, I demoed a PD Spectre 210 at like 16 jumps and then 190 and got Sabre2 190 at 32 jumps. Loading 1:1.
DZO, Instructors, PD reps were completely fine with it and nobody questioned me once about it.

Also keep in mind that I believe there is a dz training students on Sabre2 with 1:1 wing loadings during AFF (unless they don't do it any more then I am mistaken)

So what are the today's guidelines? 1:1 out of student status is too aggressive? What is the line you guys, as instructors, draw?

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I actually don't completely agree with your dz outrage from what you described.
True that if he was told not to jump then he should have not lied and jumped it and that part of outrage I get.
170 may be bit too small (1.1 loading?), but what if he had a 190?
Is that too small at 35 jumps?

I was about 190 when I started and after jumping a Navigator and Voyager 240, I demoed a PD Spectre 210 at like 16 jumps and then 190 and got Sabre2 190 at 32 jumps. Loading 1:1.
DZO, Instructors, PD reps were completely fine with it and nobody questioned me once about it.

Also keep in mind that I believe there is a dz training students on Sabre2 with 1:1 wing loadings during AFF (unless they don't do it any more then I am mistaken)

So what are the today's guidelines? 1:1 out of student status is too aggressive? What is the line you guys, as instructors, draw?



Personally, a 1:1 in general, after appropriate downsize progression from whatever was used as a student, and to a canopy that is not high performance (ie fully elliptical, under 150 sq. feet no matter the design) makes sense. Going from a 288 Manta to a 1:1 on a 170 Spectre in one step is stupid, a few steps in between makes sense. The 120 lb (geared up) jumper, should not be on a 120, even though it would be 1:1 due to the higher performance of that small a canopy, a little lighter, say a 150 might be more appropriate.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

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Part of the issue is he wasn't willing to jump the in between sizes at the time. NOW he jumping a 200. The problem was that he was refusing to listen to anyone's recommendations and as I said, went straight from the 210 to the 170 despite the warnings. Also, you haven't seen this guys "landings" or "accuracy". Not the prettiest things on earth. He needed to be on the 210 a bit longer anyway.

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If somebody blindsides you and runs into you on the road in a vehicle and dies as a result of the crash, then you were a factor in the event. You are clearly not responsible for their death and shouldn't be held responsible morally. It would be a terrible psychological tragedy if you held yourself responsible for their death.


I agree.

But what if the person who blindsides you was 16, had been driving for 2 weeks, and had been sold a car that was both fast and extremely responsive, such that a newer driver would have trouble controlling it in challenging circumstances (say, when someone cuts the new driver off).

Further, say the person who sold this car to the 16-year old knew that the 16-year old had only been driving for 2 weeks, but the 16-year old swore he could handle it, and besides, it was his life he was risking, he said.

Does the seller bear any responsibility for the car crash? Is the person who was blindsided by the 16-year old justified in assigning some of the blame to the seller?

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Good point.

And Shah, I was suprised as hell to see you chime in on a thread that had nothing to do with boobies or skinny vs. fat chicks :P


peregrinerose
There is a time for fun and a time for being serious.
this is serious! I don't want to ever get hurt again or worse see any of my friends get hurt for being dumb!
So again in advance thank you for carring about us not so smart n00bs!
Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

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I don't think anyone's trying to assign responsibility to the seller.

But in a sport this small, these kind of "reference checks" are still a good thing to do. :)

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

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Good point.

And Shah, I was suprised as hell to see you chime in on a thread that had nothing to do with boobies or skinny vs. fat chicks :P


peregrinerose
There is a time for fun and a time for being serious.
this is serious! I don't want to ever get hurt again or worse see any of my friends get hurt for being dumb!
So again in advance thank you for carring about us not so smart n00bs!


It is kind of selfish motivation. The sport is a lot more fun when fellow sky-folk are not broken. :)

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

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If somebody blindsides you and runs into you on the road in a vehicle and dies as a result of the crash, then you were a factor in the event. You are clearly not responsible for their death and shouldn't be held responsible morally. It would be a terrible psychological tragedy if you held yourself responsible for their death. Likewise, if you sell a canopy to somebody and they use it at their dropzone under their S&TA, DZO's supervision and kill themselves, you should not be held responsible.

Your argument is based on this (false) conditional as follows "if you are a factor in an event, then you are responsible for that event".

By the way, selling canopies freely to whomever regardless of experience is consistent with very tight regulation at the local dropzone level.

Keep it local!



There is no argument and nowhere in my post did I use the word responsible. If you don't get it, you don't get it.

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i sold my velo to someone without ANY experience.

Why bother even asking someone who can actually fly it. Chances are if you are to ask for experience, it will be very hard to sell something smaller than 84.

If you are 18+ and can sign a check, you are old enought to make a decision.


I agree with you. For all I know they might want to kite your velo 79? Its up to them, their S&TA, rigger,
and DZO to determine if its an appropriate canopy to jump at the dropzone.

Until then you are selling a chunk of nylon and shouldnt short change yourself, especially when you have medical bills to pay!!!!:ph34r:


BS. I don't think you would be protected by the waiver. If the jumper is busted bad enough your butt will get sued.B|B|

Do you own a car, house, have a job? Even if you don't lose the lawsuit your still going to get stuck with a lawyer's bill,:)
Of course whatever floats your boat dude. :S

R.

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Why bother even asking someone who can actually fly it.



I ask because I like to sleep at night.


Haven't you heard? Skydiving is a business now, not a family...

Screw everyone else - grab whatever you can & so long as you're happy, who cares about anyone else? [:/]

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Why bother even asking someone who can actually fly it.



I ask because I like to sleep at night.


Lisa, its easier not to care. [:/]
Only for some, I would find it very difficult to not care if someone got hurt as a result of my greed.
You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

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There are gradations of ellipticallness. .



An ellipse is an ellipse is an ellipse.

Shape <> size.



I think that the point was that there are canopies with faster turn/dive rates/trims for the same size...Safire vs Crossfire vs JVX

Size isn't everything, performance and stability also vary according to design/construction not just the overall classification of canopy type.
The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein

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Why bother even asking someone who can actually fly it.



I ask because I like to sleep at night.


Lisa, its easier not to care. [:/]


Why?

Because you don't care as long as you get your blood money and it would make you feel better if everone else felt the same way.

When you or yours get busted up and you ask why, thats karma[:/]

R.

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For the record, my response to Lisa was not how I personally feel. Anyone who knows me knows I would never sell a velo to an unqualified pilot. In fact, here is my ad in classifieds for my velo 96 http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/detail_page.cgi?ID=127172;d=1 Several inquiries abruptly stopped when I asked for references before discussing the sale further.
Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

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For the record, my response to Lisa was not how I personally feel. Anyone who knows me knows I would never sell a velo to an unqualified pilot. In fact, here is my ad in classifieds for my velo 96 http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/detail_page.cgi?ID=127172;d=1 Several inquiries abruptly stopped when I asked for references before discussing the sale further.



Thank you for asking for references and helping keep people from getting in over their heads.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

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Now you guys have me questioning.
I'm still a student and jumping a Nav200 out of AFF.
I've stood up most my landings and the last jump was within 15' of target center.
Now, I weigh almost 130lbs. So exit weights around 150.
I was hoping to maybe be flying a 170 by my A, and eventually find a rig that packs a 135-150 main and use a Sabre2 150 after getting efficient with the 170.
Is this pushing too hard? Not being safe?
My reasoning for downgrading has nothing to do with being cool, it has to due with weight. Get a workout that wears me out from lugging around that bus of a student rig. Smaller seems easier to maintain and less risk of smacking it on things(like on exit).

Just wondering...

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Now you guys have me questioning.
I'm still a student and jumping a Nav200 out of AFF.
I've stood up most my landings and the last jump was within 15' of target center.
Now, I weigh almost 130lbs. So exit weights around 150.
I was hoping to maybe be flying a 170 by my A, and eventually find a rig that packs a 135-150 main and use a Sabre2 150 after getting efficient with the 170.
Is this pushing too hard? Not being safe?
My reasoning for downgrading has nothing to do with being cool, it has to due with weight. Get a workout that wears me out from lugging around that bus of a student rig. Smaller seems easier to maintain and less risk of smacking it on things(like on exit).

Just wondering...



First, who cares about packing? I can pack a tandem canopy as quickly as my 120 when I want to, so that should have nothing to do with your decision. Neither should 'getting a workout' with the 220. Since when is a workout a bad thing?

A docile 170 (Spectre, Nav, Triathalon, etc... there are lots of good options) is a reasonable choice for your first canopy to own. How do you define 'getting efficient with the 170'? That's where you may get yourself into trouble, jumping the gun on understanding how much there is to canopy flight.

I am not sure why you've decided on a Sabre2 eventually with absolutely no experience in various canopies and no clue what you want out of canopy performance yet. Locking yourself in to that now doesn't make a lot of sense. Not knocking Sabre2 at all. It's a good canopy, I have a few hundred jumps on one, and it was the only canopy I've ever bought new.

Get a 170, put 100+ jumps on it. Then demo all kinds of other 170s for comparison in the same size, put a lot of thought to what you want out of a canopy and your future skydiving goals. For me, I wanted the perfect blend of flat glide and ability to get back from a long spot if needed (I do AFF/video) as well as very responsive and fun to fly. You may want consistently soft openings, or the ability to dabble a bit in CRW, or precision accuracy... all different canopy designs. Demos will help you determine what canopy is best for your goals. Then decide what you want for that 150.

You'll get lots of variations on the theme from what I said, all of them probably reasonable. You'll downsize fairly fast from the 200 to the 170, then spend some time there before going to the 150.

Have fun, and be safe! :)

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

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For the record, my response to Lisa was not how I personally feel. Anyone who knows me knows I would never sell a velo to an unqualified pilot. In fact, here is my ad in classifieds for my velo 96 http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/detail_page.cgi?ID=127172;d=1 Several inquiries abruptly stopped when I asked for references before discussing the sale further.



Hi Jacket

Thanks for the clarification. I'm sorry if I came down a little heavy on you.:(

This is the net and who knows who's reading and what they take away from a joke,

I heard a rumor :S,if true the dude sold his rocket ship because the cheap ass wanted a smaller canopy, the guy who bought it wasn't ready and got hurt very bad..

But thats just a rumor and don't mean nothing ;)

R.

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Thus, someone at both DZs thought it was ok to put a student or new jumper on elliptical canopies, regardless of size. Granted Nitro is quite a bit tamer than some out there, but it still can be quite sporting.



Have you checked the manufacturer recommendations for the Nitro?

http://www.hiperusa.com/files/wingloading.pdf

The first category is 50-100 jumps experience.
So it's not "someone at both DZ's", it's the manufacturer
"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen

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