In light of the Velo Guy thread...

[peregrinerose 0]

Why the hell are so many 100 jump wonders determined to get in over their heads, and why are so many experienced jumpers helping them get there?

Since I got broken, I want to upsize as I will be uncurrent and with my husband no longer able to do tandems, will not be at the DZ every weekend any more. Staying on a 120 Nitro is just not conducive to reduced currency, so I'm looking for a trade for a 135 or 150 Nitro/Nitron.

I have had two people ask for the trade.

Person number one, 100 jumps, swears he will be at 350 by the end of this season, currently on a 135 Nitro. Loading it a little over 1:1 as is, and swears that his rigger and fellow experienced jumpers are all great references about what a conservative canopy pilot he is and that he promises to be careful and conservative on the Nitro. Uh. NO.

Person number two, also 100 jump wonder, loading his current 150 Nitro at 1.1, expexts to trade his 150 for my 120. It is his first downsize. That one got a HELL NO.

WTF? Who is putting new jumpers on elliptical canopies to begin with? Why are instructors encouraging these guys to downsize to the point that they are willing to serve as references regarding how conservative they are?

Pardon the rant, but in light of the recent Velo threads, I just thought it would make me feel better. My Nitro 120 is going to stay mine until such time as someone actually qualified to jump it has a fair trade. Am I the only one that interviews people before handing gear over to them?

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[EOCS 0]

I think you fail to realize us 100-200 jump wonders mad skills

(kidding of course)

[stayhigh 2]

i sold my velo to someone without ANY experience.

Why bother even asking someone who can actually fly it. Chances are if you are to ask for experience, it will be very hard to sell something smaller than 84.

If you are 18+ and can sign a check, you are old enought to make a decision.

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[NWFlyer 2]

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i sold my velo to someone without ANY experience.

Why bother even asking someone who can actually fly it. Chances are if you are to ask for experience, it will be very hard to sell something smaller than 84.

If you are 18+ and can sign a check, you are old enought to make a decision.

Just as Jen (and any other seller) is free to refuse to sell it to anyone she wants for any reason.

Personally, I like her reasons and appreciate at least an attempt to keep the rest of us safer in the pattern from people in over their heads on canopies they can't handle (not to mention keeping the noob safe, too).

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[rehmwa 2]

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i sold my velo to someone without ANY experience.

Why bother even asking someone who can actually fly it. Chances are if you are to ask for experience, it will be very hard to sell something smaller than 84.

If you are 18+ and can sign a check, you are old enought to make a decision.

that's your option, of course - and even you acknowledge one restriction (18+) so now it's just a discussion on where to draw the line then....

but I still appreciate p-g-rose's approach anyway: her stuff - her sales criteria

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[speedy 0]

It must be different here.
After a year of advertizing at my local DZ I couldn't find anyone to buy my Velo at the cheap price of 300 Euros.

So I gave it away for free.

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[5.samadhi 0]

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i sold my velo to someone without ANY experience.

Why bother even asking someone who can actually fly it. Chances are if you are to ask for experience, it will be very hard to sell something smaller than 84.

If you are 18+ and can sign a check, you are old enought to make a decision.

I agree with you. For all I know they might want to kite your velo 79? Its up to them, their S&TA, rigger, and DZO to determine if its an appropriate canopy to jump at the dropzone.

Until then you are selling a chunk of nylon and shouldnt short change yourself, especially when you have medical bills to pay!!!!

[peregrinerose 0]

Quote

Quote

i sold my velo to someone without ANY experience.

Why bother even asking someone who can actually fly it. Chances are if you are to ask for experience, it will be very hard to sell something smaller than 84.

If you are 18+ and can sign a check, you are old enought to make a decision.

I agree with you. For all I know they might want to kite your velo 79? Its up to them, their S&TA, rigger, and DZO to determine if its an appropriate canopy to jump at the dropzone.

Until then you are selling a chunk of nylon and shouldnt short change yourself, especially when you have medical bills to pay!!!!

So I should let someone else have medical bills too? Sound logic there

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[CSpenceFLY 1]

It's kind of a personal issue as far as how much someone believes "they are their brothers keeper". I sold a canopy once to someone who wasn't ready for it and swore they wouldn't jump it for a long time. All of their friends said they wouldn't let them. Next thing I know, there they are, flying the canopy. I'm glad nothing bad happened.

I choose not to be part of the problem and if I was going to do it over I'd take their money and hold the canopy, if they wanted it that bad. Or I'd sell it to someone else.

As for these guys who say they don't care and it's not their problem. Well, they are right also. If someone can live with being a factor in someone getting injured or killed, it's really not their problem.

[peregrinerose 0]

I am not my brother's keeper, by any stretch, but neither is anyone else mine, so I get to play goddess with who gets to buy or trade for my stuff.

As an AFFI, I truly can't wrap my brain around how someone fresh off of student status gets elliptical canopies with the endorsement of their instructors. I would hope that we'd be better at educating our students in advising them. If a 2000 jump wonder that weighs 360 lbs wants to buy/trade my nitro, that's one thing, he should know the risks by that time and if he wants to jump at a 3.0WL, by all means have at it. But the 100 jump wonders? They don't have a clue, and maybe someone saying 'no' will get them to be a little more proactive in canopy education.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[5.samadhi 0]

If somebody blindsides you and runs into you on the road in a vehicle and dies as a result of the crash, then you were a factor in the event. You are clearly not responsible for their death and shouldn't be held responsible morally. It would be a terrible psychological tragedy if you held yourself responsible for their death. Likewise, if you sell a canopy to somebody and they use it at their dropzone under their S&TA, DZO's supervision and kill themselves, you should not be held responsible.

Your argument is based on this (false) conditional as follows "if you are a factor in an event, then you are responsible for that event".

By the way, selling canopies freely to whomever regardless of experience is consistent with very tight regulation at the local dropzone level.

Keep it local!

[shah269 0]

Spare parts?
I mean it does sound sick but I've seen first time riders get sold 1L 200hp bikes so that the manager could then buy the bike off of the kid after he turned it into a surf board!
http://hellforleathermagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/zx-10R-crash-599x328.jpg
Spot the dude in this photo of a n00b on a ZX-10R.

Or maybe they student just wants some thing small to pack? I mean packing a 200+ sqft wing is hard work?

Either way thank you for caring for us n00bs. I wish there were more peole in this sport and in this world like you! And i know it means shit comming from me but...I'm 100% serious! Thank you!

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[billvon 2,395]

>WTF? Who is putting new jumpers on elliptical canopies to begin with?

They are putting themselves on the canopies. Why? Because small = cool.

A few years ago I got a new rig, a Mirage M1Z. (I got it because it could accommodate a 143 reserve with my then-primary 109 main.) The #1 comment I got on the rig - "Wow, that's really small! Cool!" Now, they're not going to influence my next purchase, but imagine what the newer jumpers at the DZ think when they hear that.

>Why are instructors encouraging these guys to downsize to the point that they are
>willing to serve as references regarding how conservative they are?

In my experience they're not. While I have often heard instructors/coaches refer to what size the jumper will "end up on" it's very rare to hear "you should be jumping a smaller canopy." At Perris the primary gatekeeper for canopy size is actually Square One, being both the rental and main sales organization there (for both new and used gear.) While Dave was general manager he spent much of his sales time telling people "no, you shouldn't be jumping that yet, try this instead." But still people get through the system.

How? By buying direct. By finding a jumper who wants a smaller canopy and is selling their Safire 129. And they talk about it, and you have two people who are downsizing way too fast comparing notes.

>Am I the only one that interviews people before handing gear over to them?

Nope. Years ago I tried to sell my Crossfire 99 and asked for references. I got ~10 replies, all of which were just asking about price and color. When I pressed them for references I didn't hear back from them. I ended up selling it (ironically) to a jumper in Russia; we had a common friend in Alaska who told me that he'd been jumping a Crossfire for years.

[piisfish 135]

it is not a question of being held responsible, it is a question of personal guilt. I understand her for not willing to be one of the factors of a bad situation.

I sold one of my rigs to someone who told me he had so and so many jumps, like "enough", around 500-600. I sold him the Crossfire2 119, he would be loading it around 1.4 and I considered it a decent transaction. Afterwords, I learnt that he had only accuracy jumps with one of them bigass classic accuracy canopies. He was lucky for a year, but I did feel bad when he femured. I think I should have kept the rig.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[kallend 1,623]

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I am not my brother's keeper, by any stretch, but neither is anyone else mine, so I get to play goddess with who gets to buy or trade for my stuff.

As an AFFI, I truly can't wrap my brain around how someone fresh off of student status gets elliptical canopies with the endorsement of their instructors. I would hope that we'd be better at educating our students in advising them. If a 2000 jump wonder that weighs 360 lbs wants to buy/trade my nitro, that's one thing, he should know the risks by that time and if he wants to jump at a 3.0WL, by all means have at it. But the 100 jump wonders? They don't have a clue, and maybe someone saying 'no' will get them to be a little more proactive in canopy education.

I think you conflate elliptical SHAPE with small SIZE. Not the same thing at all.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 2,395]

>Likewise, if you sell a canopy to somebody and they use it at their dropzone under
>their S&TA, DZO's supervision and kill themselves, you should not be held responsible.

Agreed. But _some_ of the responsibility is yours. Not very much of it, but we all have a duty (IMO) to try to help newer jumpers not make really stupid decisions.

>Keep it local!

Also agreed.

[billvon 2,395]

>Why bother even asking someone who can actually fly it.

Because personally I do not want to see skydivers injured or killed, so I will not sell gear to people who are clearly not able to use it safely.

>Chances are if you are to ask for experience, it will be very hard to sell something
>smaller than 84.

True. But to me, getting absolute top dollar for the gear I want to sell is not my #1 priority,

[peregrinerose 0]

Both jumpers are on Nitros now... That would be an elliptical SHAPE. Both are looking to also go smaller in size, one from a 135 to 120, the other from a 150 to a 120. Thus, someone at both DZs thought it was ok to put a student or new jumper on elliptical canopies, regardless of size. Granted Nitro is quite a bit tamer than some out there, but it still can be quite sporting.

Yes, both size and shape do matter

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[billvon 2,395]

>Yes, both size and shape do matter

Agreed. But nowadays you'd be hard pressed to find a non-elliptical canopy for an intermediate jumper. For example, a Safire 2 149, a well-behaved canopy that is often a good choice for someone trying to downsize from a 170, is elliptical.

[peregrinerose 0]

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>Yes, both size and shape do matter

Agreed. But nowadays you'd be hard pressed to find a non-elliptical canopy for an intermediate jumper. For example, a Safire 2 149, a well-behaved canopy that is often a good choice for someone trying to downsize from a 170, is elliptical.

A Nitro is definitely beyond a Safire2. As I said, Nitro may not be as aggressive as some, but it's by no stretch docile. There are gradations of ellipticallness. Edit to add... even the manufacturer calls the Safire2 'lightly elliptical' .

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[skyjumpenfool 2]

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>Yes, both size and shape do matter

Agreed. But nowadays you'd be hard pressed to find a non-elliptical canopy for an intermediate jumper. For example, a Safire 2 149, a well-behaved canopy that is often a good choice for someone trying to downsize from a 170, is elliptical.

I'm all for "Personal Responsibility". That should hold true for the newb who's buying, and the experienced person who is selling.
Here is the key... Personal Resposibility does not equal Personal Freedom. These are two very different animals. IMHO as always.

What amazes me is, nobody has pointed blame at the manufactuers yet? I applaud that!

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[jacketsdb23 45]

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i sold my velo to someone without ANY experience.

Why bother even asking someone who can actually fly it. Chances are if you are to ask for experience, it will be very hard to sell something smaller than 84.

If you are 18+ and can sign a check, you are old enought to make a decision.

Assuming you're not joking, you are part of the problem. You have a right to do anything you want, but IMHO this attitude sucks.

Oh well, that person would probably get it from someone else if you didn't sell it.

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

[iluvtofly 0]

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WTF? Who is putting new jumpers on elliptical canopies to begin with? Why are instructors encouraging these guys to downsize to the point that they are willing to serve as references regarding how conservative they are?

Noobs lie! That's all there is to it. We had an issue with a new jumper at our DZ wanting to downsize rather quickly. Both S&TA's and the DZO told him "HELL NO!" (He wanted to go from a 210 to a 170 at 35 jumps. He claimed that since he only weighed 172 it was OK.)

Well, one weekend the DZO was out of town and unreachable. This guy insisted to the S&TA's that the DZO told him he could jump it. One of the S&TA's told him if he saw him with that rig, he was grounded. Not to long after one load left, someone came up to a group of us (one of which was a S&TA) and said, "guess who I saw run out there last second with the 170 on......" One S&TA quickly called to the plane, another very experienced and highly respected jumper at the DZ was on one of the headsets. He was told to let that jumper know if he got out of the plane with that rig he was done. Apparently at this point a very heated argument started on the plane between the dipshit and one of the TI's. Lucky for us (and his bones) he landed in the plane.

Once the DZO got back, we told him what happened. He just shook his head. He had NEVER told the guy he could jump the 170, just as we suspected. So basically never take someone for their word. Unless you know them personally, or know someone who does, follow up on their so called "references". Call the DZ direct, call the rigger. Any number you can find for that DZ.

Luckily, this guy seems to have learned his lesson. It took several arguments with several different people. But it seems to have gotten through his thick skull. Unfortunately, that's not always the case.

[cocheese 0]

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i sold my velo to someone without ANY experience.

Why bother even asking someone who can actually fly it. Chances are if you are to ask for experience, it will be very hard to sell something smaller than 84.

If you are 18+ and can sign a check, you are old enought to make a decision.

Someday you will learn that doing the right thing is a better way to go for both parties. No I'm wrong. You'll probably always be THAT guy.

[peregrinerose 0]

Quote

Quote

WTF? Who is putting new jumpers on elliptical canopies to begin with? Why are instructors encouraging these guys to downsize to the point that they are willing to serve as references regarding how conservative they are?

Noobs lie! That's all there is to it. We had an issue with a new jumper at our DZ wanting to downsize rather quickly. Both S&TA's and the DZO told him "HELL NO!" (He wanted to go from a 210 to a 170 at 35 jumps. He claimed that since he only weighed 172 it was OK.)

Well, one weekend the DZO was out of town and unreachable. This guy insisted to the S&TA's that the DZO told him he could jump it. One of the S&TA's told him if he saw him with that rig, he was grounded. Not to long after one load left, someone came up to a group of us (one of which was a S&TA) and said, "guess who I saw run out there last second with the 170 on......" One S&TA quickly called to the plane, another very experienced and highly respected jumper at the DZ was on one of the headsets. He was told to let that jumper know if he got out of the plane with that rig he was done. Apparently at this point a very heated argument started on the plane between the dipshit and one of the TI's. Lucky for us (and his bones) he landed in the plane.

Once the DZO got back, we told him what happened. He just shook his head. He had NEVER told the guy he could jump the 170, just as we suspected. So basically never take someone for their word. Unless you know them personally, or know someone who does, follow up on their so called "references". Call the DZ direct, call the rigger. Any number you can find for that DZ.

Luckily, this guy seems to have learned his lesson. It took several arguments with several different people. But it seems to have gotten through his thick skull. Unfortunately, that's not always the case.

Yep, newbs do lie. But a 30 jump wonder with that shiny high performance canopy they shouldn't be jumping even if it is a 1.1 WL doesn't know enough to lie. They just know that their AFFI or DZO told them it would be ok since it was around 1:1. I was given names and numbers of DZO, rigger, and AFFI to call by the first guy. Never called because no matter what they said, I wasn't trading canopies.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda