a hole in your canopy's top skin- what would you do?

[shayelk 0]

Hi all!
After an uneventful jump I waved at 4,000ft, and was fully deployed around 3,200ft. canopy was a Spectre 190, loaded at 1:1. When I looked up to check my canopy I saw a stripe of light on the bottom skin and figured I had a hole in my top skin (around 5 inch tear, on the tail, 1 cell away from the center cell). I decided I had enough time, so I did a control test- flared it a couple of times, did a couple of hard turns, and made sure the hole didn't get any bigger. the canopy flew as usual so I decided to land it.
My process of thinking was: behind curtain number 1 I have a fully controllable canopy with a hole that isn't growing any bigger. it might get torn on landing, but it appear that it won't. Behind curtain number 2 is a reserve that is probably ok, but it might have a worse mal if it's really not my day, and then I'm stuck with a malfunctioning canopy I can't cut away.
I landed just fine, but wanted to learn as much as I can from this, and ask other people for their opinion about the right course of action. so... what would you have done if you were me?

just to get the thread started: I got a couple of contradicting answers from instructors in my DZ- one instructor said he agree with my thought process, but he would go land on the beach so that if the canopy did fail at landing time, he had a softer crush and a better chance to walk it off.
the other said he would have cut it away because you can never know what will happen with the hole as you approach for landing and you probably have a better chance with your reserve.

[sundevil777 93]

I had a 5 to 6 foot long tear on the center cell bottom skin. It flew and landed as if nothing was wrong.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[obelixtim 100]

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the other said he would have cut it away because you can never know what will happen with the hole as you approach for landing and you probably have a better chance with your reserve.

With a hole that small, I doubt if anything serious is going to happen, most of the stress and forces on it would have occurred during the opening shock. There is plenty of strength built into a canopy, so its unlikey to just unzip during the flight phase (although Hollywood would have you believe otherwise.).

(I did have it happen once when jumping a brand new canopy, one seam on the top skin let go, from front to back, on opening. it didn't affect the flight at all, and the thought of chopping it never entered my calculations.It seemed the machinist had made a mistake sewing that particular seam.).

Another time I jumped a canopy that had been hung up on a power pole, sustaining major damage. I packed it into a cutaway rig, and jumped it into a demo...I wanted to see what further damage would occur on a terminal opening.....Nothing.

You'd be better off asking a rigger that question (about the canopy coming apart) rather than an instructor. No two situations though, are likely to be exactly the same.

The old adage, "when it doubt, whip it out" still applies though.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[councilman24 36]

The people that tell you to cut it away don't realize ( or accept) that reserves malfunction also. I've seen more and more people seem to have blind faith in their reserve. While I almost never second guess someone's decision to cutaway, it is going to your LAST chance to live. I may be slightly more sensitive since I had a reserve total once. But really, cutting away a medium or low level performance canopy for a broken steering line is probably a bad gamble.

Reserves are more reliable than in the past. (my opinion) And are there to be used and not to be feared. But this is a DEATH DEFYING sport. You have two things that may save your life. If one can still save your life, and probably not injure you, is it wise to use get rid of it and try your last chance?

Only the jumper under the canopy can decide his comfort level and make each and every decision.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[CSpenceFLY 1]

You did the right thing. You evaluated what you had and made a decision. A reserve is not a guarantee, it's a last chance.

[Jbag 0]

door number 3...the stress of the hole has no effect until you are under 500' and then you have no choice but to deal with this canopy that is tearing open on yourself. how do you know that there isnt more issues in the lines and maybe when you get lower a line breaks. I keep to the rule of if there is a rip in the top skin, i would chop that shit, something occured, whether its stress from opening or a knife dropped on the canpopy that caused it to rip...i trust my rigger, i dont trust whats going on behind the scenes. im getting rid of it.

IHYD

[obelixtim 100]

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door number 3...the stress of the hole has no effect until you are under 500' and then you have no choice but to deal with this canopy that is tearing open on yourself. how do you know that there isnt more issues in the lines and maybe when you get lower a line breaks. I keep to the rule of if there is a rip in the top skin, i would chop that shit, something occured, whether its stress from opening or a knife dropped on the canpopy that caused it to rip...i trust my rigger, i dont trust whats going on behind the scenes. im getting rid of it.

I am not questioning any decision on whether you chop a canopy or not, its up to you and you alone, and you should always be making that decision early, rather than late. Below 500 feet is not the time to get panicky about it.

But really, you need to find out a bit more about how a canopy is built, and the strength that is built into it. A line that has survived the opening shock and subsequent ride for however long is not likely to suddently snap below 500 feet.

Sure it has blown a hole, or maybe a whole panel, but it isn't made of tissue paper and string. A canopy is built with reinforcing tape and doubled seams, and the lines are strong nylon. Once open, the stress on it is constant, and it is unlikely to just unzip, as I've already stated.

If you trust your rigger, talk to him about it over a beer....

Knowing how a canopy is built is something every skydiver should know. What do you do with your downtime at the DZ??.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[Southern_Man 0]

Could you see how big the tear was from under canopy?

I would probably make the decision to land it if it did a good contralability/landability check. I would not be worried about the tear opening more. However the one thing that I don't like about the situation is that it is difficult to tell if your descent rate is faster when you are up high (no reference). If you have a large enough hold that it is affecting you descent rate, you might not realize that until you are down low.

Of course I wasn't in the situation and it sounded like you did great.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[MikeJD 0]

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I've seen more and more people seem to have blind faith in their reserve.

I was actually going to say the opposite! Someone started a thread here recently in which he'd questioned another person's decision to cut away. He was suggesting it was 'very dangerous' to take a chance on one's reserve opening successfully.

To me that is dangerous thinking (your experience notwithstanding! ).

Of course every situation is different, and it's every jumper's responsibility to make his or her own decision. But I'm quite sure that more people have been killed or maimed over the years by riding malfunctions into the ground - or by making the decision to cut away too late - than by using reserves 'unneccessarily'.

[councilman24 36]

I see older jumpers less willing to dump their reserve. Younger jumpers more willing. Both can be taken to extremes. The guy that thinks he can fix the spinning malfunction and waits too long is a big issue. We've also had people decide they were too low to open their main without a chance of having two out (way above many normal opening altitudes for old timeres), worry about not pulling their reserve correctly, and falling stable until their cypres opened their reserve for them ON PURPOSE. This was trust in both the reserve AND AAD with a main still on their back.

Your right. We have both extremes. Not using a reserve when they should kills many more people. Pulling it when probably didn't need it usually doesn't kill. But may be getting rid of a parachute that is working for one that will probably work.

I was trying to educate on one extreme. The other is probably more important. I try to never in a real life situation tell someone they were wrong in pulling their reserve.

Thanks for reminding us too many people don't pull or delay pulling too long.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[adamhildreth 0]

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door number 3...the stress of the hole has no effect until you are under 500' and then you have no choice but to deal with this canopy that is tearing open on yourself. how do you know that there isnt more issues in the lines and maybe when you get lower a line breaks. I keep to the rule of if there is a rip in the top skin, i would chop that shit, something occured, whether its stress from opening or a knife dropped on the canpopy that caused it to rip...i trust my rigger, i dont trust whats going on behind the scenes. im getting rid of it.

I am not questioning any decision on whether you chop a canopy or not, its up to you and you alone, and you should always be making that decision early, rather than late. Below 500 feet is not the time to get panicky about it.

But really, you need to find out a bit more about how a canopy is built, and the strength that is built into it. A line that has survived the opening shock and subsequent ride for however long is not likely to suddently snap below 500 feet.

Sure it has blown a hole, or maybe a whole panel, but it isn't made of tissue paper and string. A canopy is built with reinforcing tape and doubled seams, and the lines are strong nylon. Once open, the stress on it is constant, and it is unlikely to just unzip, as I've already stated.

If you trust your rigger, talk to him about it over a beer....

Knowing how a canopy is built is something every skydiver should know. What do you do with your downtime at the DZ??.

I think that is spot on - if you have enough knowledge to know that it's safe to land and will not get worse that puts you in a very different position. At the moment based on my training and knowledge, I would chop it if there was any damage as I simply don't know enough about how it will handle, whether it will get worse etc....

[adamhildreth 0]

Having just read the incident forum regarding attempting a landing with snapped A Lines, I'm really intrigued as to what people consider a malfunction when it comes to holes / snapped lines? And why would you not just chop it and go to your reserve.....? Why would you ever attempt to land a less than perfect canopy?? This is a question, not a "you're all wrong for doing it..."

[skyjumpenfool 2]

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I landed just fine, but wanted to learn as much as I can from this, ..............

Another good reason to always carry a couple spare silk worms on every jump. Keep them in a small pouch right next to a spare neddle and thread.

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[theonlyski 3]

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Having just read the incident forum regarding attempting a landing with snapped A Lines, I'm really intrigued as to what people consider a malfunction when it comes to holes / snapped lines? And why would you not just chop it and go to your reserve.....? Why would you ever attempt to land a less than perfect canopy?? This is a question, not a "you're all wrong for doing it..."

Because reserves malfunction too. How shitty would it feel to think while riding a streamer reserve that the main was better and wishing you would've just landed it.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[sundevil777 93]

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I'm quite sure that more people have been killed or maimed over the years by riding malfunctions into the ground - or by making the decision to cut away too late - than by using reserves 'unneccessarily'.

Quite right.

Back when we had round reserves, we knew that a landing would likely be rough/fast, with little ability to land where you wanted. With such reserves, the thinking creeps into your head that for some partial malfunctions, you're still better off to land them than the reserve. Even for high speed mals, not wanting to use the reserve because of the landing you'll face can motivate a person to spend more time trying to fix it than they should.

Fortunately, the fear of such a rough landing that a tiny round reserve (I called my reserve a hi-po, because it was high porosity as opposed to lo-po) is not an issue. The fear of having to go to the last chance still is an issue.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[JackC1 0]

a--hole in your canopy's top skin- what would you do?

Probably wonder how I managed to end up playing with the CReW dogs.

[obelixtim 100]

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Having just read the incident forum regarding attempting a landing with snapped A Lines, I'm really intrigued as to what people consider a malfunction when it comes to holes / snapped lines? And why would you not just chop it and go to your reserve.....? Why would you ever attempt to land a less than perfect canopy?? This is a question, not a "you're all wrong for doing it..."

I think a hole in a canopy is not always a huge problem.

Broken lines are another kettle of fish completely. Once the trim of a canopy is upset, it is not going to fly that well.

A hole I'd maybe stick with, broken main lines (more than 1), I'd prolly chop.

Surprised to read that incident when a 3rd line broke, after the canopy was open and flying. I find that pretty unusual.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[Jbag 0]

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door number 3...the stress of the hole has no effect until you are under 500' and then you have no choice but to deal with this canopy that is tearing open on yourself. how do you know that there isnt more issues in the lines and maybe when you get lower a line breaks. I keep to the rule of if there is a rip in the top skin, i would chop that shit, something occured, whether its stress from opening or a knife dropped on the canpopy that caused it to rip...i trust my rigger, i dont trust whats going on behind the scenes. im getting rid of it.

I am not questioning any decision on whether you chop a canopy or not, its up to you and you alone, and you should always be making that decision early, rather than late. Below 500 feet is not the time to get panicky about it.

But really, you need to find out a bit more about how a canopy is built, and the strength that is built into it. A line that has survived the opening shock and subsequent ride for however long is not likely to suddently snap below 500 feet.

Sure it has blown a hole, or maybe a whole panel, but it isn't made of tissue paper and string. A canopy is built with reinforcing tape and doubled seams, and the lines are strong nylon. Once open, the stress on it is constant, and it is unlikely to just unzip, as I've already stated.

If you trust your rigger, talk to him about it over a beer....

Knowing how a canopy is built is something every skydiver should know. What do you do with your downtime at the DZ??.

I fully understand the capability of how much abuse a canopy can take, ive also seen a canopy blow up on opening. my philosophy is "why take a chance?"

"blown a hole, or maybe a whole panel, but it isn't made of tissue paper and string..." please enlighten me of what happens to the flight dynamics and how the canopy will flare and what dynamic forces will be placed upon the structure in the area of the hole and or blown panel.

"A line that has survived the opening shock and subsequent ride for however long is not likely to suddently snap below 500 feet" i just want to point out the keyword of "not likely" here and point out that it is possible, correct?

so now this isnt necessarily an issue of knowledge but more of an issue of comfort level and how conservative we are as individual skydivers. I take into the X factor in my decisions b/c i know i dont know everything.

IHYD

[skybill 18]

Hi Shay,
Once upon a time I had an old Dajango Dragonfly with about 1500 jumps on it. On its last jump it ripped a center cell bottom skin from the B to the D line attach point. Flew fine, turned OK and flying along with others in the air with me I could tell my rate of desent wasn't out of hand. On the safe side I landed in the peas (at Scare-Us-Valley) and although a bit brisk if i was in the hard pan i'd still be OK. One thing, as far as rips are concerned, unless you try doing some hard spirals or the like to increase the load, the rip isn't going to continue unless you have some really rotten fabric. Cut away if you want, personally if the canopy is flying fine, rips, bullet holes and or whatever, I'd land it. Someone may have swapped out your reserve with a bunch of old Chicago newspapers when you wern't looking. Oh well at least you'd have something to read on the way down

SCR-2034, SCS-680

III%,
Deli-out

[obelixtim 100]

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door number 3...the stress of the hole has no effect until you are under 500' and then you have no choice but to deal with this canopy that is tearing open on yourself. how do you know that there isnt more issues in the lines and maybe when you get lower a line breaks. I keep to the rule of if there is a rip in the top skin, i would chop that shit, something occured, whether its stress from opening or a knife dropped on the canpopy that caused it to rip...i trust my rigger, i dont trust whats going on behind the scenes. im getting rid of it.

I am not questioning any decision on whether you chop a canopy or not, its up to you and you alone, and you should always be making that decision early, rather than late. Below 500 feet is not the time to get panicky about it.

But really, you need to find out a bit more about how a canopy is built, and the strength that is built into it. A line that has survived the opening shock and subsequent ride for however long is not likely to suddently snap below 500 feet.

Sure it has blown a hole, or maybe a whole panel, but it isn't made of tissue paper and string. A canopy is built with reinforcing tape and doubled seams, and the lines are strong nylon. Once open, the stress on it is constant, and it is unlikely to just unzip, as I've already stated.

If you trust your rigger, talk to him about it over a beer....

Knowing how a canopy is built is something every skydiver should know. What do you do with your downtime at the DZ??.

I fully understand the capability of how much abuse a canopy can take, ive also seen a canopy blow up on opening. my philosophy is "why take a chance?"

"blown a hole, or maybe a whole panel, but it isn't made of tissue paper and string..." please enlighten me of what happens to the flight dynamics and how the canopy will flare and what dynamic forces will be placed upon the structure in the area of the hole and or blown panel.

"A line that has survived the opening shock and subsequent ride for however long is not likely to suddently snap below 500 feet" i just want to point out the keyword of "not likely" here and point out that it is possible, correct?

so now this isnt necessarily an issue of knowledge but more of an issue of comfort level and how conservative we are as individual skydivers. I take into the X factor in my decisions b/c i know i dont know everything.

I think I clearly made the point (in another post) about making a decision early and sticking to it, also if there is doubt in your mind that is a good enough reason to chop it.

Basically if you are more informed about the construction of your canopy, it would give you a lot more idea what can and can't be landed if you have a problem.

The key is the control check after opening. That should tell you right away whether you have a viable canopy, or a ball of crap.

Not comfortable = chop.

Everyone has different comfort levels.

More informed = better decisions. That applies to all aspects of skydiving.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[erdnarob 1]

You did the right thing by landing the canopy after having tested its airworthiness. But I shake my finger to you when you mention you did a couple of hard turns. When such a situation happens, behave gently with a parachute to make sure it will not become worse. Same thing if you have one or two broken lines. Do only wide turns, gentle manoeuvers... and keep the more drastic move for the flare near the ground.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[shayelk 0]

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You did the right thing by landing the canopy after having tested its airworthiness. But I shake my finger to you when you mention you did a couple of hard turns. When such a situation happens, behave gently with a parachute to make sure it will not become worse. Same thing if you have one or two broken lines. Do only wide turns, gentle manoeuvers... and keep the more drastic move for the flare near the ground.

and what if I'd find my self in need to turn relatively hard later on? how would I know that the canopy can handle it? if I turned hard and bust a cell or anything when I made this turns I could still chop it- that's why I did it up high: to make sure the canopy is flying like it should

[obelixtim 100]

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and what if I'd find my self in need to turn relatively hard later on?

Why would you need to do that at all?. If you know the canopy is damaged but you are going to stick with it, all you need to do is select a safe landing area and fly conservatively till touchdown. If you look where you are going you have no need to do any hard turns.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[theonlyski 3]

If my canopy had a hole on it's top skin. I'd probably patch it.


FWIW, I've seen some pretty f-ed up canopies fly and land fine. We're talking about blown ribs and skins, broken lines and such.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[shayelk 0]

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and what if I'd find my self in need to turn relatively hard later on?

Why would you need to do that at all?. If you know the canopy is damaged but you are going to stick with it, all you need to do is select a safe landing area and fly conservatively till touchdown. If you look where you are going you have no need to do any hard turns.

as I said- I wanted to make sure my canopy is fully useable- meaning I can do with it everything I usually can. If I can't make any hard turns I'd rather chop it.