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flyboy8501

Online Rating Courses?

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I was just wondering, do you guys think that the uspa will ever make online rating courses available to us and have our dropzone coordinate the proctored tests and all. It's possible and I think it would make getting that extra rating easier for those of us that can't travel cause of work and stuff. Opinions?

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I was just wondering, do you guys think that the uspa will ever make online rating courses available to us and have our dropzone coordinate the proctored tests and all. It's possible and I think it would make getting that extra rating easier for those of us that can't travel cause of work and stuff. Opinions?



Nope and I hope they never do.

You can have an examiner come to your DZ and work on the course, or have someone from your DZ become an examiner.

I'm afraid to see what would come of online IRC's, we would have way more people with ratings but that isn't necessarily a good thing.
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

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The ratings don't need to be easier to get.



Yeah - if you can't make the effort to go get the rating, how on earth are you gonna be able to make the effort to keep it current and use it in the right way.
~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

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Even if it was a good idea, which it isn't, I am not sure that it would help much.

In my experience, the "classroom" parts of my rating courses were important, but paled in comparison to the evaluations. There is absolutely no way to replace the challenges of DOING the jumps and ground preps.
The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

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There are evalutors that travel to different dz's to do courses. Bram from SkydiveRatings.com travels all around.



Among many other I/E's out there that could be asked... They may be interested in a week or so vacation from their home DZ.
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

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It just so happens that I just completed the IERC this evening. It was an overloaded 3 days of getting some great information, and this was an option we discussed. Not necessarily putting the course online, but supplementing. Read aheads and quizzes could be easily uploaded and actually make the course more difficult. Put the onus on the candidate to study, complete tests, and have a working knowedge of course materiel prior to arrival. It could be a way to make more of the actual classroom time and cut down on some of the firehose effect. Just an idea.

D
The brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all.

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It seems to me that USPA already publishes material that is to be read prior to attending ratings courses....I believe it is called the IRM. From what I've seen, most people can't be bothered to do so. I also agree with Diablopilot that the ratings are far too easy to obtain as it is. The last thing we need is a way for IE to sell more ratings faster. This is such a poorly constructed notion that I can't believe USPA hasn't already started to work on it....

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This is exactly what I meant! I don't think taking the test online is smart, cheating can be involved, I was thinking more on the lines of study material, practice quizes and general knowledge all in an interactive module. Then you could take the test under the direct supervision of an S&TA once he gets confirmation that you have done the online training. And I'm sure he would answer any questions we would have.

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This is exactly what I meant! I don't think taking the test online is smart, cheating can be involved, I was thinking more on the lines of study material, practice quizes and general knowledge all in an interactive module. Then you could take the test under the direct supervision of an S&TA once he gets confirmation that you have done the online training. And I'm sure he would answer any questions we would have.



I doubt you've taken any IRC's. Why try to change something you haven't experienced?

All of the tests are open book, to be completed before the course. The course is there to review the test, teach you what you need to know for that discipline, and test your ability to actually do it (both on the ground and in the air).

ETA: Furthermore, then you would need all S&TA's to attend the standardization meetings and be rated in all disciplines.

Say I wanted to get my IAD/SL ratings... would you prefer that:

A) I took an online lesson, written test under the supervision of my non IAD/SL-I rated S&TA who maybe has seen an IAD/SL student dispatched from the plane once

or

B) I went to a rated IAD/SL-I/E who has experience in IAD/SL practices and rigging?

Taking into account that either way, I would be allowed to dispatch students immediately after earning the rating. Who would you want as your instructor?
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

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The IRM only covers a portion of what the actual course does. What I'm talking about is all of the advanced materiel that tends to get skimmed over due to a lack of time. 3 days is no where enough to become proficient at much of anything. Only the AFFIRC takes longer than that.

Let's get real here - distance learning has been proven to be just as effective as in person classroom lecture. And actually better in some cases. These days a person can earn any level of education including a PhD, pilots license, and myriad other certifications online. Why is skydiving any different? Our problem is quality control - not method of information delivery.

And once again - I'm not advocating replacement! Only supplementation to allow more indepth coverage of the materiel.
The brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all.

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The IRM only covers a portion of what the actual course does. What I'm talking about is all of the advanced materiel that tends to get skimmed over due to a lack of time. 3 days is no where enough to become proficient at much of anything. Only the AFFIRC takes longer than that.

Let's get real here - distance learning has been proven to be just as effective as in person classroom lecture. And actually better in some cases. These days a person can earn any level of education including a PhD, pilots license, and myriad other certifications online. Why is skydiving any different? Our problem is quality control - not method of information delivery.

And once again - I'm not advocating replacement! Only supplementation to allow more indepth coverage of the materiel.



No, the pilots license still requires a 40 hours of flight time which you must have accomplished certain requirements, a written (which must be at an authorized testing facility) and an oral/practical.

Furthermore, you cannot learn everything you need to know to be a pilot online. It takes a good bit of flying to just be able to do it safely.


Now, when I read the thread, it seemed that the OP was talking about a full course with a test that gets signed off by the local S&TA or whatnot. That I do NOT agree with at all.

I believe you're talking about more of an augmentation to the in person course that allows you to do lots of the studying beforehand, yet still have your skills and abilities tested by an examiner. If so, then yes, I would support that. However that sounds like a different animal than the OP was talking about.
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

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It just so happens that I just completed the IERC this evening. It was an overloaded 3 days of getting some great information, and this was an option we discussed. Not necessarily putting the course online, but supplementing. Read aheads and quizzes could be easily uploaded and actually make the course more difficult. Put the onus on the candidate to study, complete tests, and have a working knowedge of course materiel prior to arrival. It could be a way to make more of the actual classroom t
ime and cut down on some of the firehose effect. Just an idea.

D

I actually do expect anyone taking a rating course from me to have done everything you mention, just not in an online format. If you show up at a course and expect me to teach you everything that's already in the SIM and IRM, I'll need a week to do a coach or I course.
I've seen I-E's that expect this, and those that don't. I've seen candidates show up with pretty much no prep time. They are the ones that "melt" or fail.
If you were successful at your IERC, you must have had lesson plans for everything you needed to teach prepared in advance. You must have actually read the entire IRM more than once prior to the course. You must have known the relevant portions or the ISP for your discipline and most of the SIM prior to the course.
or not????
This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

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Going into the IERC I was quite familiar with the SIM, but less so with the IRM. Specifically the portions that I don't use (SL/IAD/Tandem). I had a lesson plan for the initial presentation but going further would have done no good. My Course Director had very specific requirements he was looking for that were not outlined in either of the manuals. His course - his rules.

Everyone should be able to agree that simply reading something will never be enough to fully understand it, especially complex subject matter. But the more you read the better you can prepare for maximising your time with an instructor.

USPA has now made the entire First Jump Course available online. Does anyone take students that have completed this iteration of training and say "You did the online course? Well hell sarge, let's go get on the manifest!" Of course not. But having a student already familiar with the materiel helps. I see this quite a bit with students I coach who have studied the available videos. I simply have them brief me on the jump and fill in any gaps that may exist.

I'm just saying that we could make better use of available technology, that's all. I'm in favor of anything that increases the dissemenation of information. This stuff isn't classified and the more of us that know it the better we are as a sport/community.

Ski - I just finished Private Pilot ground school last month at a Part 141 facility. I'm quite familiar with the FAA's process and we could stand to take a few notes from them. They offer options to get the training done. We don't.
The brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all.

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Here’s a couple things that I see as wrong…first, you went into the IERC not having read the all the material in the IRM….how would having more stuff online helped? Second, the Course Director may have very specific requirements, but it should not be outside the organizations rules. I believe that it should be a USPA course, USPA rules….this is a big problem that I see in the ratings programs….IEs doing whatever they want….

Also, you’re changing the argument….this isn’t about student learning online, this started as an discussion about the possibility of obtaining ratings by online education and proctored practical exams. How do you propose that the veracity of the individuals involved be verified? Even with ‘real’ ratings courses USPA seems to have decided on ‘more’ over ‘better’.

Last, nobody is stopping anyone from seeking out more information….the internet abounds with material on teaching theory. Perhaps people should loose the entitlement mentality and actually work towards obtaining a rating rather than expect someone to hand it to them just because the attended a course.

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Going into the IERC I was quite familiar with the SIM, but less so with the IRM. Specifically the portions that I don't use (SL/IAD/Tandem). I had a lesson plan for the initial presentation but going further would have done no good. My Course Director had very specific requirements he was looking for that were not outlined in either of the manuals. His course - his rules.

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No, his course, USPA rules. When I run Coach Course, I recommend that the candidates read not just the "coach" section of the IRM, but also the "I" section that applies to their DZ (S/L or AFF) so that they better understand what the I's are teaching and why, and also the IE section to get a better idea of where I'm coming from running the course. I would think you'd have to read all of the IRM just to deal with the test of the IERC. I also expect my candidates to prepare lesson plans and outlines for all of the topics they might be required to teach (with the understanding that they WILL be modified during the course) but having this done forces them to really think about all of this and gives them a much better understanding when I present new material that they haven't seen yet.



Everyone should be able to agree that simply reading something will never be enough to fully understand it, especially complex subject matter. But the more you read the better you can prepare for maximising your time with an instructor.

USPA has now made the entire First Jump Course available online. Does anyone take students that have completed this iteration of training and say "You did the online course? Well hell sarge, let's go get on the manifest!" Of course not. But having a student already familiar with the materiel helps. I see this quite a bit with students I coach who have studied the available videos. I simply have them brief me on the jump and fill in any gaps that may exist.

I'm just saying that we could make better use of available technology, that's all. I'm in favor of anything that increases the dissemenation of information. This stuff isn't classified and the more of us that know it the better we are as a sport/community.

I'm not against using new technology, just saying that what you're talking about can also be accomplished with what is currently available.



Ski - I just finished Private Pilot ground school last month at a Part 141 facility. I'm quite familiar with the FAA's process and we could stand to take a few notes from them. They offer options to get the training done. We don't.

Getting back to the original question, any and all means of preparation prior to a rating course can be valuable, but I can't see ever being able to just do everything online.
This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

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You're mis-quoting me quite a bit. I never said that I hadn't read the IRM. I first read it when I was preparing for the coach course and have gone through it several times since during the AFFIRC and TIRC. I do not use the SL & IAD sections - I don't have a reason to other than taking the test prior to the IERC.

The USPA course was run by USPA rules. The CD's requirements were technical skydiving processes and had nothing to do with teaching. Just the specific materiel to be covered, which I had to get familiar with in order to teach it.

Hand someone a rating? Really? I've argued for no such thing. I've busted my ass getting mine and plan to continue doing so. I'm simply talking about using technology. The fact that USPA won't even make the IRM an electronic document is quite telling. And yes, I believe that it would help. Hasn't the PDF version of the SIM (which is also a smart phone app) helped spread the gospel?
The brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all.

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You’re evading the questions….how would having more material online have helped you obtain this rating….when by your own admission you only read certain sections to take the pretest? Even if they don’t offer this type of training at your current DZ, as an instructor, aren’t you curious as to what those students were taught? How do you deal with them if they show up at your DZ?

What material would you place online that you did not have access to? Do you rise in support of an online rating system as was proposed by the OP.

I certainly did not misquote you regarding the nature of your IERC….unless you edited your previous post it said ‘his course, his rules’ now it’s a ‘uspa course run by uspa rules’

While I’m certainly not a hardcore supporter of USPA rating system, I find it interesting that you find it ‘telling’ that they don’t offer the IRM online….telling of what? Why is it a bad idea that everyone who to become an instructor of some sort is required to have a current hard copy of the IRM and SIM?
You should have to ‘bust your ass’ to become rated, it shouldn’t be easy….I’ve worked hard to become a S/L JM and I….TI….and AFF I and never once have I believed that I did not have access to the material that I needed to succeed, and this was all in the days before the internet may have been invented. These days I usually find when someone tells me they busted their ass it usually means that they did only what was necessary to complete the card, rarely do I find anyone going above and beyond the minimal requirements.
After getting your coach rating, how many FJC did you teach? How many students did you coach? Before the AFFIRC how many practice jumps did you make? This isn’t meant to pick on you, but I see you as representative of the ‘new school’ type of instructor. I’ve spent more time alone with a student these last 5 years, watching my partner flail about the sky, than I did in the 15 years prior to that. As you can probably tell, I have absolutely no interest in making it easier , or more convenient for people to get a rating. I want to have to bust your ass. What we do, what we say can save…or take a life, or cause lifelong immeasurable suffering for one of our students. Typing on this phone is tedious, I’m out….

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