Potential dangers of doing hybrids?

[apixel 0]

I'm usually weary about doing anything too complicated with other newbies like myself. Today, someone asked me if I wanted to do a hybrid, in which I basically do a belly 2-way with someone and the third person (holding on our chest straps) does a sit/stand underneath us. I passed as I felt we were all a bit too inexperienced for such a thing. Obviously, I can do a two way, and if I had been jumping with a very experienced freeflyer, I would have done it. Could something have gone that bad? I guess I was worried about him popping up suddenly, but I have no real basis other than caution.

I would love it if this thread could discuss different hybrids and their level of risks.

Thanks

[freefalle 0]

I've seen a couple of hybrids go bad, As with any skydive, if the experience level isn't there, neither should the skydive. I congratulate you for knowing you limits. As far as things that can go wrong during a hybrid, handles,can get pulled often times people grab chest strabs when they hang, nothing wrong with that I suppose with the exception that the chest strap is very close to the handles which could easily be pulled. I also thing that the person hanging has to be experienced and ready for the fact that they could possibly cause a burble for the belly fliers when the go into the stand. I've see people try to go into a stand and cause the formation to flip over. Hybrids are alot of fun, but I think all parties involved should be solid fliers before entering into one.

[nate_1979 9]

You can get kicked in the nuts... this happened to me on my first hybrid, right before my goggles flew off my face.

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[FrancoR 0]

Feuergnom, who also post here, has had his reserve pulled do to the tension brought on the chest strap. The extra cable on the reserve handle was to short, so that the tension on the chest stap caused the stretching of the housings. For the amount of lengthening the extra cable was to short. He was under his reserve at 3500m.
I think that is something to watch out for, ask your rigger how much extra cable in enough. There should be a thread about somewhere.

Franco

If it does not cost anything you are the product.

[Travman 6]

Personally I have never done a hybrid, but I am told you want a freeflyer who can track to save their life.

When the freeflyer releases they will drop below you, so they need to be able to track well otherwise you may track over the top of them when they are opening.

[Andy9o8 0]

Hybrids are fun and challenging, but they pose safety issues of their own that require constant alertness.

Yes, a premature reserve dump is always an added risk of docking with a chest strap. Obviously the freeflyer must be very careful with hand placement when docking. But equally (if not more) important is that those above the formation trying to get lower to get in MUST stay out of the "cone of danger" if there's already someone docked with a chest strap in the formation -- any increased chance of a premature canopy deployment is also an increased risk of a freefall-into-canopy collision, and those are bad news.

Also, hybrids sometimes have a lot of vertical separation between the flatflyers in the base and any freeflyers that don't make it in, so everyone must take extra care at breakoff to track well, clear your airspace and BE SUPER-AWARE of where everyone else is before you pull.

[tdog 0]

I have been in the base of a handful of hybrids... The largest included over 10 people.

Surprisingly, most were highly successful thanks to awesome freefliers... Like building the hybrid by 10.5 K and riding it down solid to breakoff... But I have been on a few that have exploded...


The base has to have great RW discipline... Having 4way experience really helps in nailing an exit so you are "there" for the freefliers even on the hill... But also, having 4way experience will help with levels issues... Cross referencing across the formation and knowing what YOU have to do to fix problems and build the picture really helps... I worked my butt of last time stopping a spin and slowing down my side 3' to bring it back up to the other side that was going high. (And they should have been working to get their side down) If I didn't do that, the whole thing would have likely flipped and funneled.

I learned flying in a few freefliers burbles, while taking high double over grips on the other base members, means you have to really fly with your legs...

But as far as safety... The organizer should have very specific break off altitudes and pull altitudes for each group. Here is where the discipline comes in. When the freefliers leave, the base has to just stick around for a while... That is easy when the formation is stable... When it funnels 1500 above the planned breakoff, you still have to manage when you leave the formation despite the fact there is no formation. The ability to rebuild the base in a few seconds comes in handy, or at least the ability to stick around near your slot without grips, so when it is time to break, you know where your friends are. If you leave early, you might be too close to the freefliers who are not expecting you to join them.

Ironically, my first hybrid, I looked down to the freeflier who was dangling from our two way, and said to myself, "now what do we do?" in reference to the breakoff. I realized that he had the most controlling grips, so short of shaking him off or causing the formation to funnel, I had to trust the freeflier to initiate the breakoff and be altitude aware because I could not leave until he let go... Went off without a hitch, but I realized we did not organize the dive as well as we should have...

[dragonfyr 0]

As a good rule of thumb, if you are wanting to try something new that you think might be risky, get some advice from your local S&TA or an instructor. They should be able to help answer these things.

A lot of the posts here have some good advice. One of the big things is to make sure you have a good gear check before doing it. Chest straps should be secure, but if they are tight, the freeflyer may have difficulty getting it. You should check this on the ground to make sure the straps do not get loose under tension (it's a bad thing having a chest strap come undone in freefall). Good gear checks before exiting is also critical to make sure handles and pins are secure and in place.

For the dive itself, there are lots of things that can go wrong, but every skydive has this to some level. Talk to some experience freeflyers and get some advice from them with hands on discussion.

Overall, you did the right thing. However, if your group gets some advice, I don't see any reason you can't try it.

Don

[jsaxton 0]

Y'all _could_ look at the direction they go when they breakoff.

[NWFlyer 2]

You've gotten some great advice here, particularly with respect to having a plan for breakoff. I'd also advise you to have a "if this all goes to shit" plan. What I've generally done is say that if things don't go as planned (for example, the base funnels on exit), everyone gets on their bellies, regroups in a round, and you rebuild from there if you have time. Also, set a point in the skydive at which you will no longer try to build the formation (X000 feet). Have two breakoff plans: if the formation builds as planned and if it doesn't.

The key in all this is making sure everyone knows where everyone is and can stay clear of each other as necessary throughout the skydive and at breakoff.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[apixel 0]

I just wanted to thank everyone at this point. I've already heard so many things I didn't even think of.

Andres

[Zoter 0]

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Personally I have never done a hybrid, but I am told you want a freeflyer who can track to save their life.

Also carefully consider the 'breakoff' height for the freeflyer(s) which should be related to their expereince and ability......but either way should be a way before the 'flatties' breakoff....
With that followed the hanger(s) should have plenty of time to track well clear of the base before they breakoff and deploy.
Breaking off all together ....is not a good idea IMHO...no matter how good everyone is.

[mr2mk1g 10]

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I passed as I felt we were all a bit too inexperienced for such a thing.

I think it's worth saying that that can never be the wrong answer. Look at it as a kind of "if in doubt" stance.

[feuergnom 22]

as FrancoR mentioned: i got my reserve popped on a funneled hybrid in something like 10k. after some thorough testing we found out the following cause:
the excess lenght of the original javelin soft-reserve ripcord-cable was long enough for "normal" tension. we couldn't get the pin to leave the loop with my whole weight attached to the chest-strap. only after adding some "violence" = severe shake like it could (and indeed did) happen during a funnel, the reserve-pin left the loop.


two lessons to learn:
1) your gear will distort when brought under tension and housings will eat up excess cable-lenghts. if you add more force the results can catch you by surprise
2) there are several versions of "original" parts out there. the the first generation (=older builds) of reserve cables is definitely shorter than the newer ones.
so if you are planning to participate on a hybrid and you do the belly-part: check with your rigger if there is sufficient excess-lenght!

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[lisamariewillbe 1]

WOW what a great thread, I have been invited on two hybrids but turned them down, now I feel confident that I made the right choice... Thanks for bringing this up and thanks to all who posted their concerns during this type of dive ...

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[brianfry713 0]

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When the freeflyer releases they will drop below you, so they need to be able to track well otherwise you may track over the top of them when they are opening.

A typical breakoff plan for anything but the smallest hybrids is for all the freeflyers to drop grips and break off at least 1000 feet higher than the belly fliers. They should track hard and be gone by the time the belly fliers break off. The belly fliers should only track enough to get separation from each other, not so far that they catch up with any of the freefliers. As always, clear your airspace before you pull, including looking for people above and underneath you about to pull.

BASE 1224, Senior Parachute Rigger, CPL ASEL IA, AGI, IGI
USPA Coach & UPT Tandem Instructor, PRO, Altimaster Field Support Representative