Preparing to camera fly

[Trafficdiver 8]

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My point wasnt that is was safe or that anyone is wrong about the increased distraction. My point was to counter some of the older jumpers who think every younger jumper with a GoPro who has less than 1000 jumps is some wannabe hotshot punk. That is absolutely not the case and I only hope to show that the bitter attitude toward the younger crowd and their go-pros isn't necessary. The better option is to accept how the newer crowd wants to enjoy the sport, and use your experience and wisdom to educate the new jumpers of the risks and help develop solutions that can satisfy everyone (like camera mounts that eliminate snag points, coaching on developing gear-up routines to incorporate the added distractions of the camera, etc).

So if the young crowd wants to skip this AFF Malarkey and go right for the freeflying, the older folks should just sit back and say, good luck?


Why don't you buy your own plane, open your own DZ and try that one out and come back to us with some stories.

[Lindenwood 0]

Nice straw man, there.

Weeeee!

[DSE 3]

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Is jumping a camera safer? Of course not. But times change whether anyone likes it or not (and that goes for every aspect of society). In this case, cheap HD cameras are becoming the norm in most extreme sports anymore. So we can either adapt our attitudes to mitigate the new risks as much as possible without creating social rifts, or we can rant about the stupidity of anyone who does it differently and end up doing nothing to make it better.

Times may change in the classroom, yet the amount of time available to a distracted or entangled skydiver hasn't. People aren't any more adept with a camera at 100 jumps today than they were 10 years ago. Camera size doesn't play a significant role in this conversation.
Texting has indeed become a part of day to day life; jumping out of airplanes wearing a camera at 25 jumps is not.

[Trafficdiver 8]

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Nice straw man, there.

Ahh, you're a smart one. I screwed up big time trying to prove you wrong. You already know everything. No prob man. Do what you want.

Can't wait to hear your smart answers on wingsuiting and canopy progression.

[bk1411 0]

Just to stir the pot. Canadian liscence requirements are simply a B liscence to jump camera and a talk with a experienced camera man. In all reality you can jump your camera before a 100 jumps if your on the ball. As this rule has been there for quite some time with CSPA, and with no major issues sprouting because of it, I Agree with Lindenwood, If you give them a proper briefing, explain the hazards and they are heads up, there's no problem with them taking their go-pro/contour/drift/etc.. . They are a great debfrief tool.

I wanna go fast!

[Lindenwood 0]

Still the same trick, Trafficdiver ;) .


I heard it mentioned that more often than not, half the people on a load who arent students are wearing a sport camera. When asked, most of them have less than 200 jumps. Indeed, times are changing. More and more DZOs are accepting this because that is how this generation wants to jump. Funny enough, I don't think we've seen the same rash of deaths like we'd see from tossing untrained first-timers out of the plane with nothing more than a rig and a how-to-skydive pamphlet...

I thank and respect those like Airtwardo and the rest of the people in the below thread for helping this jumper do it more safely. Like I said, it seems most of the highly-seasoned, successful role models have recognized that ranting on the internet isn't going to change anyone's mind. Rather, a majority of them posted great tips and pointers to minimize physical risks and keep his mind pointed the right direction.

Http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=4384415;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;



It's almost like you've managed to squeak into the "over 200 jumps" club and now want to stand next to the old timers and stare down your nose at the silly newbies...

Weeeee!

[Lindenwood 0]

In the other thread I mentioned, several people pointed how mounting techniques to minimize and even eliminate the snag issue. That would be the solution to your proposed problem of dealing with an entanglement. The distraction issue is not solved by damning a new jumper for choosing to wear a camera. Rather, as was discussed in that thread, discussion and gear-up tips are the key. Like, turning on the camera early and then doing your gear-checks like normal, or not trying to film yourself (like with long extensions or wrist-mounts) because those are way more distracting with a POV setup which a lot of people tend to forget about (at least to the point where it isnt a focus of the dive).

I am not saying people are any "better" or worse at 100 jumps than they were 10 years ago. I'm just saying that the HD cameras are becoming the rule for most jumpers, rather than the exception. People are going to wear them more and more whether we like it or not. So, we have only a few options:

1) Demand federal and state regulation to fine jumpers or DZOs who don't follow the 200-jump "law."
-I hope everyone recognizes why this is not favorable.

2) Create and widen the inevitable social rift that would come from enforcing or even bickering about the rule.
-New jumpers would be too bitter toward the experienced ones to listen to the rest of their advice.
-We'd probably start seeing "camera-friendly" DZs pretty quickly anyways.

3)Accept the changes and do what we can to educate newer jumpers of the risks, provide succestions to minimize them, and point people toward safer gear.

Weeeee!

[Trafficdiver 8]

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It's almost like you've managed to squeak into the "over 200 jumps" club and now want to stand next to the old timers and stare down your nose at the silly newbies...

I don't jump a camera so try again.

I think you're advocating something foolish and trying to find an excuse for it. The "everybody else is doing it so it must be alright, Dad." method. It just doesn't convince me. I know there are not many fatalities with small cameras, but the # of people hurt is not well documented so how do you know how many incidents there really are?

When a low time jumper (I consider myself one) is diving down to a formation they can do serious damage to people if they don't slow down well above it, then fly in control to their slots. I don't see how a camera can help that. In fact, I see it only as an impediment, especially if they fly into my arm with a camera on their head.

I think the first 200 jumps should be focusing 100% on the fundamentals, Camera flying is not a fundamental.

Again, do what you want, that doesn't mean I have to think it's not foolish.

[billvon 2,379]

> In this case, cheap HD cameras are becoming the norm in most extreme sports
>anymore. So we can either adapt our attitudes to mitigate the new risks as much as
>possible without creating social rifts . . . .

I agree that it is best to present information in an approachable way, and that there are even nicer ways to say "no."

But "creating social rifts" must take a back seat to safety every time. Yes, some old-timers are asses about advice, and some newbies can't take advice without feeling they are being attacked. Neither one makes it OK to use cameras sooner. The same risks still apply; the air isn't any different.

[Lindenwood 0]

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I think the first 200 jumps should be focusing 100% on the fundamentals, Camera flying is not a fundamental.

We shouldn't put "camera flying" and "flying while happening to wear a camera" in the same boat. There is nothing stopping a new jumper from learning fundamentals while wearing a camera.

And if someone comes crashing iinto the formation head-first, his helmet is going to hurt just as bad as the camera. Not to mention, the camera is not the issue, but the jumper himself. I guarantee on the ground you'd be griping about the jumper, not the camera.


Bill, you definitely aren't wrong. I am just saying, the "war," from what I can tell, is almost over--HD cameras are everywhere. We might as well make the best of it and put our efforts into education and risk-mitigation rather than wishing things were like the old days, you know? If you run into a stubborn new jumper, we can probably guarantee a better response from "hey, if I were you, Id keep X in mind and make Y changes to your camera setup for Z reasons," as opposed to "you idiot, you suck too bad to even be trying to wear that!" A rare few might actually listen to the latter advice, but we can both imagine that most, even if they took it off that day for your benefit, would go right back to wearing it at the next DZ or the next time you aren't around, tight? On the other band, helping him understand the risks and giving suggestions to reduce them will probably sink in a lot better. Not to mention, he is much more likely to pass that advice on to other new jumpers he meets who hadnt been expomsed to the same advice.

Traffic, this isn't an issue of "everyone's doing it so it must be right." Rather, it is a matter of "everybody's already doing it so your approach of alienating every one of them into behaving how you want is fundamentally futile."

Weeeee!

[davelepka 4]

The size of the camera or camera helmet is not germain, nor is the frequency of camera use on the ground by the user. The simple fact is that time spent considering things like camera preparedness (both in the plane and before), camera anlges or 'getting the shot' and really anything related to cameras and skydiving are subrtacting from you paying attention to what you need to be focused on.

I guarantee you that if I followed you from your gear-up through your landing, I could offer you a tip on how to better handle yourself with virtually every move you make. Like it or not, there is a WORLD of shit you don't know, and haven't even remotely considered. Meanwhile, you advocate jumpers such as yourself dicking around with a GoPro as being OK becasue 'everyone is doing it' when you should be paying attention to 100 other things that are literally right in front of your face, but due to your inexperience, you see right through them.

Here's the hard truth about skydiving. A great number of accidents occur through the actions of more than one jumper. Your dumb ass is just as likely to hurt someone esle as it is to hurt yourself.

Let's think about cameras, and where they can be a problem. In the plane, you're making sure that your camera is on and 'flight ready', but you forget part of your gear check (has happened many, many times). Then your pin/PC comes out while you're in the door and your main hangs up on the tail. Your mistake, everyone elses problem.

At any point in freefall or under canopy - sooner or later you're going to connect the dots that where you look is what you shoot, and just picking your head up or turning it sideways would frame something up nice (or even just get it in the shot). Now you're not looking where you're going. Your mistake, a problem for anyone around you.

Here's where you little internet smartass world comes tumbling down. I've been in your shoes before, and I'm in my shoes now, and I've worn many, many pairs of shoes in between. You have only worn one pair of shoes in this sport, and without the benefit of time and experience, there is simply no way that you know better than me when it comes to skydiving, and specifically flying camera. A good 80% of my jumps hve been made with a camera, and that's a shitload of camera jumps.

You can argue your side anyway you want, and I could make up some dumb shit about flying the space shuttle and type it up in a convincing manner. It doesn't make it right, and the fact is that a trained, experienced astronaut is going to know 1000x better than I would how to fly a space shuttle. I don't think you're convincing anyone here that your bullshit is true ir correct, but the problem is that you seem to soldier on as if it is, and sooner or later that attitude is going to bite you in the ass, and as I mentioned before, there's a fair chance you're going to take somebody down with you when it does.

[vanessalh 0]

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Jumping with a camera isn't always about producing epic videos to gain fame on youtube. Most everyone I have talked to who wears a camera does it just so they can relive that moment. I have also heard several of them mention the educational value of being recorded, which I have experienced and with which I wholeheartedly agree.

It is no different than taking pictures on a vacation, for most people. Yes, with little experience it is obviously bad to get distracted by the camera to the point where they only see what the camera sees. However, most of the guys Ive met who jump a camera only think about it to turn it on in the plane and turn it off on the way back to the hanger.

In short, it isn't always about trying to become some youtube star or show off your m4d skyllz to other jumpers on the internet. Rather, a camera these days, for most, is just cheap and simple insurance that they'll have a few million words worth of stories to look at and show their family and friends down the road.

Flame Suit, On! ;)

I couldn't have said it better! I had a situation today where a 4-way went south, and I backed off and watched the other 3 flyers play in each other's burble for 15s. It would've been very helpful for them to have a video to share insights.

At the same time, I appreciate all the caution and advice from folks. This is not a decision I take lightly. I will get very comfortable in the air, in the exit and under canopy before adding a camera. It might be 150 jumps, it might be 200. After talking to a few folks I realize the number doesn't matter as much as the confidence and comfort in all situations.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

Not replying to Dave, just a general comment.

I have about 1800 jumps and probably 1600 of those are camera jumps. Yes, things were a little different back then.

I just made my 1st jump in 3 yrs and would not have even considered putting on my camera helmet. With all of the experience I have I would probably want to do 30 to 50 jumps before I would put it on.

When I think back to what I knew, and more importantly didn't know, when I first put on a camera helmet it scares the hell out of me.

[Lindenwood 0]

I have acknowledged every one of your other points already. You are just choosing to ignore them so you can make a series of reasonable statements and act like they are all new points. Not only that, but you have missed my ENTIRE point that bitching about it over then internet is accomplishing exactly nothing except allowing you to bask in your own righteousness.

If you want to make the difference you seem so passionate in making, get out there and start educating jumpers on all these risks at the DZ and help them make better choices. You might not get them to take it off, but I bet you can help them keep their pins in place. And that is of far greater benefit than this little tirade. Though, "you're a douche" would probably not be the best opener if you want to keep ears turned in your direction.

*edit*
Basically. The problem as you perceive it already exists. So, you can join the million other people who spend their time preaching to their own choir on the internet, or you can get out there and show your opposition that you are trying to appreciate their position and work to help them understand yours.

Weeeee!

[davelepka 4]

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If you want to make the difference you seem so passionate in making, get out there and start educating jumpers on all these risks at the DZ and help them make better choices

Thanks for the tip genius. That's what I've spent the better part of the last decade doing. Sometimes it's physically at the DZ, and sometimes it's online because the DZ is closed for whatever reason.

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Though, "you're a douche" would probably not be the best opener if you want to keep ears turned in your direction.

Again, this is another error in judgement that you (not me) are making. When it comes to matters of life and death, as in almost anything involving safety and skydiving, you do not have the luxury of dismissing advice simply because you don't like the way it's delivered. You can choose not to buy a car from an impolite salesman, or not to vote for a candidate who doesn't debate well, but if you have any intentions of skydiving for very long with any degree of success, you have to learn to pull up your big boy pants and learn to seperate the message from the messenger.

You seem to be such a big fan of logic, even if portions of yours are flawed, and the logical truth is that there is no requirement that someone with skydiving information/knowledge/experience also be an effective communicator, or be able to coddle your gentle sensibilities.

The truth about skydiving is the truth, and it makes no difference if I write you a hand written note delivered in a letter sprinkled with glitter and confetti, or I spray paint it on the hood of your car. The thruthfullness of the message does not change.

FYI - if you think that calling you a 'douche' was an opener, go back and read the shit that you posted and the way the you tired to defended it against much more knowledgable jumpers. You made your point and your position quite clear, I knew who I was talking to and where they were coming from. Any chance you had at a civil exchnage was used up by the time I posted what I did. It's no different that watchting you argue your (flawed) point with 5 different jumpers at the DZ before walking over and getting involved. You planted your flag where you thought it belonged, and in doing so lost your status as a doe-eyed newbie who was just lost in the woods through no fault of their own. You knew where you were, and according to your own words, were there by your own design. Suck it up, cupcake.

[billvon 2,379]

>There is nothing stopping a new jumper from learning fundamentals while wearing a camera.

There absolutely is. Wearing a camera is a distraction. So is learning 4-way. So is a new exit. Add them together and you don't learn much of anything due to all the distractions; you are dealing with distractions instead of focusing on the dive. Add enough of them together and you start forgetting things like putting your chest strap on, pulling, flaring etc.


>Bill, you definitely aren't wrong. I am just saying, the "war," from what I can tell, is
>almost over--HD cameras are everywhere.

HP canopies are everywhere too and it's still a big problem. A lot of people are dying under good canopies. And while education is one part of solving that problem, keeping newer jumpers off canopies they can't handle is also a very, very important part of that.

>We might as well make the best of it and
>put our efforts into education and risk-mitigation rather than wishing things were like
>the old days, you know?

Years ago at the Ranch there was a sportsman's club in the woods. People would go out there and get drunk then come back and skydive. There were some complaints, but the people who enjoyed doing that said basically the same thing - "we're going to do it so you might as well make the best of it. Why not have the DZ work together instead of wishing it was some other way? Because it's not."

In such a case, would you advise people to just make the best of it, and put your efforts into learning how to skydive safely after a few beers? Rather than trying to alienate them into doing what you want?

[skyjumpenfool 2]

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Is jumping a camera safer? Of course not. But times change whether anyone likes it or not (and that goes for every aspect of society). In this case, cheap HD cameras are becoming the norm in most extreme sports anymore. So we can either adapt our attitudes to mitigate the new risks as much as possible without creating social rifts, or we can rant about the stupidity of anyone who does it differently and end up doing nothing to make it better. I have seen more and more older skydivers on here (and ESPECIALLY off the web) choosing the first path.

My guess is… you're the kid in class caught texting a friend while the teacher was explaining an assignment. Clearly, that Phone rule did not apply to you? So, you got all bent out of shape when the teacher took your phone away.

Now you’re the 100 jump wonder who's trying to rationalize her desire (it’s probably already a decision) to jump a camera (before you're ready) in the same manner. You were WRONG in English class, and you’d be wrong in skydiving. And, that’s what experienced skydivers are trying to tell you. But, of course, you’re not listening because your too busy texting you’re BBFF.

Experienced jumpers are not trying to “keep you down”. They’re trying to keep you alive long enough to make a couple thousand skydives together. Don’t take it as a personal insult when you don’t “GET YOUR OWN WAY”! Earn the Privilege to Play!

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[DSE 3]

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I have acknowledged every one of your other points already. You are just choosing to ignore them so you can make a series of reasonable statements and act like they are all new points. Not only that, but you have missed my ENTIRE point that bitching about it over then internet is accomplishing exactly nothing except allowing you to bask in your own righteousness.

If you want to make the difference you seem so passionate in making, get out there and start educating jumpers on all these risks at the DZ and help them make better choices. You might not get them to take it off, but I bet you can help them keep their pins in place. And that is of far greater benefit than this little tirade. Though, "you're a douche" would probably not be the best opener if you want to keep ears turned in your direction.

*edit*
Basically. The problem as you perceive it already exists. So, you can join the million other people who spend their time preaching to their own choir on the internet, or you can get out there and show your opposition that you are trying to appreciate their position and work to help them understand yours.

A worthy read

It's not complete, been busy with life, but there is a lot there.

[skyjumpenfool 2]

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A worthy read

It's not complete, been busy with life, but there is a lot there.

... and if that's not enough for her, here is another, more recent one;

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4386002;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[Trafficdiver 8]

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Traffic, this isn't an issue of "everyone's doing it so it must be right." Rather, it is a matter of "everybody's already doing it so your approach of alienating every one of them into behaving how you want is fundamentally futile."

Sorry dude but once again you're wrong. There are plenty of DZ's where no one with under 200 jumps has a camera on their head.

How does it work. Easy, anyone of the staff or experienced jumpers say, hey new guy how many jumps do you have, less than 200, great, you're not getting on the plane with that gopro. Other than that have a great time.

Maybe you should get out and try a few DZ's before generalizing about what all the cool kids are doing.

[jrjny 0]

I definitely agree with you from a logical standpoint, though with the benefit of some hindsight I would recommend considering maximum risk mitigation.

The more experience you have the more 'moments' you'll experience where the gravity of the sport becomes much more apparent. Most likely they simply serve to improve your awareness but they also may hurt.

Treat every jump like it can kill you. If you reasonably believe you do that with or without a camera, great. If a minor distraction 'might' cause you to stray from your safety procedures, be aware.

It's not a carnival ride.

best,

Jeff

[5.samadhi 0]

"lindenwood" you were asking for a good ole classic davelepka internet ass kicking and you got one.

[Joellercoaster 6]

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There are plenty of DZ's where no one with under 200 jumps has a camera on their head.

Including every single one in the UK.

--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

[shibu 1]

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Jumping with a camera isn't always about producing epic videos to gain fame on youtube. Most everyone I have talked to who wears a camera does it just so they can relive that moment. I have also heard several of them mention the educational value of being recorded, which I have experienced and with which I wholeheartedly agree.

I agree. I think alot of jumpers just want to wear a camera to capture the moment. But who said being a yoputube star was the reason not to wear a camera?

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It is no different than taking pictures on a vacation, for most people.

huh?

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Yes, with little experience it is obviously bad to get distracted by the camera to the point where they only see what the camera sees. However, most of the guys Ive met who jump a camera only think about it to turn it on in the plane and turn it off on the way back to the hanger.

How do you know that most of the guys you met who jump a camera only think about it to turn it on & off?

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In short, it isn't always about trying to become some youtube star or show off your m4d skyllz to other jumpers on the internet. Rather, a camera these days, for most, is just cheap and simple insurance that they'll have a few million words worth of stories to look at and show their family and friends down the road.

Agreed. The reason for having a camera may be a good one but it does not change safety issues.

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Flame Suit, On! ;)

lol. This makes more sense than anything else you have posted.

[shibu 1]

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My point wasnt that is was safe or that anyone is wrong about the increased distraction.

Maybe safety should have been your point.

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My point was to counter some of the older jumpers who think every younger jumper with a GoPro who has less than 1000 jumps is some wannabe hotshot punk. That is absolutely not the case and I only hope to show that the bitter attitude toward the younger crowd and their go-pros isn't necessary. The better option is to accept how the newer crowd wants to enjoy the sport, and use your experience and wisdom to educate the new jumpers of the risks and help develop solutions that can satisfy everyone (like camera mounts that eliminate snag points, coaching on developing gear-up routines to incorporate the added distractions of the camera, etc).

What I am hearing from the older jumpers is they are using their "wisdom to educate the new jumpers of the risks". It is just hat you disagree with their "solutions", which is to learn to fly your body so well that you do it without thinking about it.

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There was another thread started by a guy with 100 jumps asking about how to safely jump his GoPro. Somewhat surprisingly, he actually got a lot of usable, friendly advice, even from old-timers. As another relatively new jumper like yourself pointed out in that thread, it seems times are a-changing. I appreciate those who are expanding their perspectives to keep everyone as safe as possible while letting them get what they want out of the sport. The guy who barks at every young whipper-snapper doing something differently is just going to get a lot of closed ears--my educational background and experience as a teacher and leader fully support this. Alternatively, the guy who shows them how to mitigate some of those risks through education and safer equipment is the one who will, in the long run, have a more positive impact on younger skydivers (in their safety, their enjoyment of the sport, and in their willingness to listen to all the other advice the old guy would be willing to give).

I do not agree. I really want to wear a camera. One of the reasons I do not is bc I trust the experienced jumpers who tell me not to do it. I appreciate their advice when they tell me that I can mitigate the risks by taking the time to learn to fly better.

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Here is another example. In schools, cell phones had become a major annoyance in classrooms. After a few years, however, most of the successful teachers stopped barking at students for every phone sighting, and adapted their rules to be more accepting of them. Of course, just like with cameras, balanced rules and standards are still in place. However, for most teachers, as long as they arent lecturing, they are okay with a student sending a text here and there as long as the work is getting done. Now, if it is perceived the it is causing more problems or affecting other students, measures will be taken--just like in skydiving with a camera. However, most successful teachers have decided that it simply isn't the hill worth dying on. And here is the final kicker: When students are in situations where they need advice (whether they know it or not), whose advice do you think they'll more readily heed? The one they perceive as a totalitarian jerk who doesn't even care to understand them or their desires, or the one who has been reasonably flexible to keep them doing what they need to do (homework / flying safely) while letting them do a little of what they want to do (text / jump with a camera).

Great example.

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Different situations, of course, but the psychology is exactly the same.

It is sort of the same in that you are wrong on both counts.

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Is jumping a camera safer? Of course not. But times change whether anyone likes it or not (and that goes for every aspect of society). In this case, cheap HD cameras are becoming the norm in most extreme sports anymore. So we can either adapt our attitudes to mitigate the new risks as much as possible without creating social rifts, or we can rant about the stupidity of anyone who does it differently and end up doing nothing to make it better. I have seen more and more older skydivers on here (and ESPECIALLY off the web) choosing the first path.

Times are changing. Maybe when technology gets to the point that cameras are the size of a pencil point so there is no entanglement risk.... Maybe when the cameras can turn themselves on & off by themselves so you are not thinking about the camera instead of thinking about doing another gear check...

Then maybe. Or maybe still not. I'll defer to the jumpers who are already doing it. I can learn from other people's mistakes. I don't need to make them myself.

Sounds like you should spend more time learning how to jump... or maybe how to control the kids in your classroom... and less time posting your uninformed opinions regarding camera use in skydiving for now.