DZ Safety and how to recognize possible safety Problems.

[skydiverjerry 0]

Because From the way you guys talk. I Find it REALLY Hard to believe that Student Skydiving was all that FUN and Sure as hell could not have been safe being a Student Skydiver back then....
You must of had a lot of Complaining to do to ?

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sure we complained
about the wind the weather the gear and stuff.
but i think that we walked into skydiving with our eyes open, new the risks and the hurts we could and did get. and accepted them.

it was our choice to skydive,
with less choices in the way of gear or drop zones you did what you had to do to skydive.

there was less comunication in those days as well, like no internet cell fones et.

so we got on with skydiving and if people could not handle the heat they got out of the fire or stayed and tried to make it better ,safer, or more fun for the next person and at the same time try not to get hurt to much.

skydiving is skydiving now because of those that stayed the course we should respect them for that and help them now when the sport has changed.

life is a journey not to arrive at the grave in a pristine condition but to skid in sideways kicking and screaming, shouting "fuck me what a ride!.

[RayLosli 11]

crwpj
if only there were some way these students could get the MESSAGE about this PERSONAL issue you have. hmm,... hmm,...
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Yes Is this not the reason people respond to posts and Threads ? because people have different points of view ?
If Everything was agreed upon when writen & when Posted on a Public Forum. Then everything would be to Lovey-dovey wouldn't it ?
You make Personal Issue with my points of view on the way I think Students should voice themselves. Therefore you make Your Personal Issue by response to me. Is this not true ?
The Students that are Publicly Complaining of Bad DZO student training. Are trying to voice a message of Personal Issue. Are they not ?
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Just because people think I am a hard-ass on my View. They make personal response.
My View (personal issue) Is that Students in Training are not held hostage by the DZ they are honing there skills at.
Student skydivers are only held hostage by there Personal Needs an Wants. There need and want to become experienced enough to Pick and Chose were they want to Skydive at any time they wish. This is the core of why a Students desires Training.
If this is the ONLY DZ that they have to go. Then maybe they should Suck It Up a little till they able & can leave the DZ and there PERSONAL ISSUE with the DZO and his student safety training.
If there is another Dz They can take there business to force change is the better in my Personal Issue. Rather than public crucifixion of a DropZone & Un-Safe Training safety in a public forum for all to see.
That is all I am trying to say. So I am sorry if what I said possibly angers you. Please feel free to Post your Personal Issue in a response/post.
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[airtwardo 6]

it was our choice to skydive,
with less choices in the way of gear or drop zones you did what you had to do to skydive.


***

That statement sums it up Jerry...

It was...'go along-get along' or Golf!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[RayLosli 11]

airwardo
It was...'go along-get along' or Golf!
..........

Kind of like that....... but that's not PC to say these days on the DZ. Even students Personal dive coaches are not allowed to suggest that you need to Suck-It-Up. We must give positive reinforcement and be all Lovey-Dovey. Because it's a * No Child shale be Left behind.* kind of a DZ USPA world out there now.
Not Happy as a Student in your 1st year of training with safety Issues.
All that I was Reading is people are Reenforcing the action of Whine and Complain. Then Run to the USPA or FAA ? for a quick fix. IN PUBLIC WEB-FORUM !
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In this Thread I started. I was hoping for a few more Stories of some Shadey Student Safety issues of (When you were Young and Learning to Jump on the DZ.) to press my point of, Maybe you have to put up with some things that you don't like Sometimes To achieve the end result.
You -DO- what it takes to Skydive sometimes. Like I was saying in a previous post.
..."Students in Training are not held hostage by the DZ or DZO they are honing there skills at.Student skydivers are only held hostage by there Personal Needs an Wants."
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NOW I thing everybody should just take the easy road & go along with - mjosparky - and BANISH my Lame-Ass to - SPEAKERS CORNER. ! ....
Because we should all be Luvey-Duvey and sweet smelling and give each other flowerers and Hugs and kisses and agree with All we READ.
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[Andy9o8 0]

The tired, old, Neanderthal attitude of "shut up and suck it up" is not the solution, it's the problem, and it should be dead and buried. The question of whether we as a sport would evolve to where lower-number jumpers (or for that matter, anyone who is not a local skygod) are allowed to do more than just salute and say aye-aye, and actually participate meaningfully in the ongoing conversation about safety issues, without fear of being casually dismissed as "whiners", has been answered "yes" by the vast majority of jumpers, including an awful lot who've been in the sport for 20+ years.
Nobody, even low-timers, should ever feel intimidated out of discussing safety issues that they may see come up. That's the way it should be.

[wmw999 2,121]

Just because I had fun jumping in the 70's, with 70's gear and practices, doesn't make them best.

Skydiving is one of the arenas where an unsupportive approach is still tolerated. You might need to suck it up and accept that there are people who prefer a supportive atmosphere; some of them are students, and some of them are instructors.

You don't have to be one of them, do you.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Scrumpot 1]

Wendy, you are STILL who I want to be when (and if I ever) grow up!!

Your wisdom is always, and consistently, beyond reproach!

Blue Skies,
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[RayLosli 11]

andy:
"The tired, old, Neanderthal attitude of "shut up and suck it up" is not the solution, it's the problem, and it should be dead and buried."
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That's a strong statement which has some validity to it but will never be Dead & Buried. Everybody that learns to Skydive has to, "shut up and suck it up" sometimes.

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" Nobody, even low-timers, should ever feel intimidated out of discussing safety issues that they may see come up. That's the way it should be."
..."without fear of being casually dismissed as "whiners",
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No one learning to skydive should have the spirit beat out of them. By being belittled or left to there own demise. Just to end-up smoking it-in. because they were not altitude aware, unstable and dangerous From training Neglect. So I do not believe in this statement carried to it's fullest degree/meaning.

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" Nobody, even low-timers, should ever feel intimidated out of discussing safety issues that they may see come up.
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Agreed. but HEY it did not look like it to me that anyone is to intimidated to say what they think on this subject. I am opinionated but at the same do not hesitate to listen to any View expressed.
I also do not Casually Dismiss. I sometime use/throw a few Verbs like (whiners) out there but sometimes I think you get the most honest responses or answers to questions asked and put forth if you have a little friendly friction. Me Not Agreeing with there solution to there problem. Is Not dismissal of Them as growing skydivers. Just strong disapproval of some actions taken in public forum as well as some of the advice given.
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[RayLosli 11]

wendy:
"Skydiving is one of the arenas where an unsupportive approach is still tolerated. You might need to suck it up and accept that there are people who prefer a supportive atmosphere.'
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I accept challenge of validity of anything I say with open arm. Believe it or not but I am not a total Knuckle Dragger and am evolving slowly.....
OK everyone wants to be Supportive even me. For example: for them (students) that are dissatisfied with there DZ and it's operator/owner. While throwing in the twist of, (concern) of Safety & training & of treatment of themselves and students. While also fearing second rate mechanical upkeep on there Jump Plane.

I would like to be even more supportive but 127 posts latter what was accomplished for an acceptable solution for this problem ?What are the best avenues of pursuing MAJOR change ? especially if you have only been skydiving for a short period. like the complainants in the thread (uspa and faa reg. violations) is a good example to play on.
On one end of the spectrum you got, "shut up and suck it up" & Jump." which seams to be an unpopular as a problem solver these days. And on the other end to just run right in and make formal, verbal and written complaints to FAA and USPA..
Everybody loves to be Supportive but what's the answer ?
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..."Just because I had fun jumping in the 70's, with 70's gear and practices, doesn't make them best. "
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I agree for instance that you might now what is best have been skydiving and seen a few DZ's in 30 years. Or other skydivers that have actual years of skydiving experience and actually grew up with a Dz that had REAL safety issues with student training, gear and aircraft. Actual DZ's that were bad enough go under for being unsafe.
Fear and concern for ones safety is a pretty natural reaction with skydiving especially if your just getting into it. One big question I got. Can students in the first year Recognize what is bad. A Bad DZ & Bad DZO ? What is Valid concern and What is Overreaction to safety concerns or issues ? Are things as bad as they think safety wise when possibly that's the only DZ they have ever been to or known so far as skydivers ?
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