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apley

Main Flap open

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i'm almost embarassed to post this, but i will lay my ego aside because it surprises me that i have never heard any advice on the subject, and i'm sure this is not an uncommon occurance.

twice now i have been on the camera step of the otter and noticed the main pin cover on another jumper flapping in the wind. as this was a freefly jump, i wanted to warn the skydiver to avoid the chance of a premature deployment, but i couldn't decide how to make him understand that i was not prompting an exit, but directing him back inside the aircraft. it was a feeling of helplessness that i have discussed with several others on the ground, and not really received any good advice.

believe me, this won't happen again. both instances were uneventful skydives, but i was left with the feeling that i was irresponsible in allowing the dive to continue. i thought about climbing back into the plane and pulling my buddy after me, but i've attempted it before and it is nearly impossible. (many would be capable, but i'm an old fart and a little out of shape)

as of now, my plan is to kick the jumper in the ass if i can, shake my head profusely, and point back inside the aircraft. i'm hoping this will be universal body language enough to get the point across. unfortunately, this will only work with the rear jumper (no pun intended), and if it is one of the others outside my reach, i have no solution except for the furious shaking of my head and wagging of the finger.

any other suggestions from other cam flyers, or anyone else for that matter?

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Don't climb back in. If you are already out its safer to you and the aircraft just to go then and there. Its an ugly ordeal trying to climb back in with the next group there staging already. They have to pull you in and unless they know why and what they are doing its possible in the confusion to make the situation worse.

Just let the jump continue, then try to get the attention in freefall. I used to jump a flappin Javelin and it used to come open on every freefly jump for probally 100 jumps. As long as the jumper has their pin in, correct pin tension and bridle properly stowed that flap is important, but not enough to waive off a skydive for.

The only 2 prematures I've been witness to were caused by 1) poor bridle storage and too loose of pin tension. The bridle got loose (flap closed still) and pulled the pin and had a horseshoe in a horney gorilla. 2) was caused by a worn BOC that let the PC get out while sitflying. I've witnessed a lot of open flaps and in my opinion... as long as the rest of the gear is properly maintained and packed its ok to jump.
Yesterday is history
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As long as the jumper has their pin in, correct pin tension and bridle properly stowed that flap is important, but not enough to waive off a skydive for..



you hit the nail on the head. i have witnessed many prematures in freefly jumps, and the results are disastrous. they have almost always been the result of lack of proper gear maintenance. i realize i have to leave this responsibility for gear on the individual jumper, but i can't resist this last chance to save them from serious injury.

i think your advice is sound, don't get me wrong.... some pills are just hard to swallow. i like the idea of signalling them in freefall, but then i have to determine what a good signal would be that can be universally understood.

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twice now i have been on the camera step of the otter and noticed the main pin cover on another jumper flapping in the wind.



What kind of container?

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"feeling that i was irresponsible in allowing the dive to continue - believe me, this won't happen again"



There is no way you can prevent certain types of containers from having the main pin protector flap comming open - the container may have been closed in the airplane and came open during climbout. So many skydivers do not get gear/pin checks before exit or jump properly configured well maintained gear - you cannot possibly be responsible for all, what you can do is lead by example (I.E. get pin checks yourself for others to see).
Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

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telling them to pull is not really necessary, which is why i was concerned with the type of signal i give them. on your belly, rather than in a freefly position, you are pretty safe with your flap a flappin... in a freefly position, however, you're asking for trouble of the hurtin kind!

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I think it was too late to warn someone for open main flap.

On the ground: ok
On the plane: ok
Outside of the plane or freefall: too late...



i STRONGLY disagree. if you can get a guy out of freefly position and on his belly, his chances of injury from a premature deployment are almost nothing. i've seen enuf premies in freefly to know that they are likely to cause injury and/or death.

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Can you warn him/her in freefall? Nope.

In the door: there is no time, no way to clearly communicate. There is a risk/chance to have a premature opening at he door too, that can that the plane,pilot and/or people out too.

You can not avoid every possible danger, there is no life without luck.

I'd rather warn the jumper on the ground after the jump, because it may happen again.

I've seen myself with an open main flap on a 20 way RW attempt from the video. I was one of the floaters. It was from 2 planes. Would it be a solution if someone would try to direct me back to the plane?

I've got your message about FF dangers anyway.

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Yeah, the finger thing can be useful. However, one has to take into account that if you're a freeflier, the finger thing can be interpreted as just a friendly "Fuck You" which is returned in just as friendly a way.

This happened to me twice (one loose reserve handle, one main pin cover open, both times on other jumpers) so i decided to use another hand signal simply because the universal one finger salute is interpreted differently by different skydivers.

I use a pistol like gesture and tell people I jump with about it. Usually not a problem since I jump with the same people mostly.


I hope it helps. Sometimes things just happen very quickly. Saw the main flap flopping around on my jump buddies rig, gave 'im the signal. he had time to just start going to his belly and pooof, out came the main. His pilot chute, still in its pocket, came out a split second later, in between the lines under the slider, wrappedaround the canopy and slam - instant canopy that sort of could fly a little. This was at 2500 meters and I spent the rest of the jump wondering if my friend was OK and conscious. Didn't really start to breathe properly til I saw him cut away and (after a good time delay) deploy his reserve.

Was his last jump on that container. The container wasn't in bad shape as such, but it had a too-small-for-container sized canopy in it. Friend got a new one a few weeks later.

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I don't think it'd work for belly, but when freeflying & I see this situation I put out one hand to say "stop", then I point to whatever part of the gear is messed up. Most times I turn & point to the open main flap, I've reached over my shoulder to point at reserve & I've pointed to the MLW for either handle loose.

Once my main flap came open, my buddy did the same for me. So I reached around & felt for the pin to still be in place (hand coming up from below the pin so I would be pushing it up if anywhere). Another time a friend couldn't tell what I was saying, I told him to turn around (back to me) & I flew up putting my feet on his hips so I could visually see the pin.

One thing in all this is that I make sure to never by any measure to be above the questionable rig:S.

There is no can't. Only lack of knowledge or fear. Only you can fix your fear.

PMS #227 (just like the TV show)

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So I reached around & felt for the pin to still be in place (hand coming up from below the pin so I would be pushing it up if anywhere).


The only problem with this thought (and I have seen it) is that if enough bridle is also catching wind, it can have sufficient drag to "flip" the pin in exactly the opposite direction you might otherwise expect it. ...Not "ragging" on ANYTHING you are saying. Just giving something else, from my own practical experience and actual observation once, in someone else's incidence, to think about.

Blue Skies,
-Grant
coitus non circum - Moab Stone

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I have the same problem on my rig at the moment - a Vector - I'm only doing RW type jumps at the moment but I wouldn't even think of doing a FF jump with it. The main is slightly too large for the container but mainly it is just an older rig that the flap that you tuck under is kinda bent. I've noticed on all the new ones they have made them to last - flaps that are a lot longer and sturdier.
How is it that we put man on the moon before we figured out it would be a good idea to put wheels on luggage?

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Not for much longer! I've ordered my wings and hopefully I will see it in a couple of weeks! *cross fingers* =) I might even get the jump numbers and experience up enough to be on the Wings load this Easter boogie (if they have a Wings load this year!).
How is it that we put man on the moon before we figured out it would be a good idea to put wheels on luggage?

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In Reply To
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So I reached around & felt for the pin to still be in place (hand coming up from below the pin so I would be pushing it up if anywhere).

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The only problem with this thought (and I have seen it) is that if enough bridle is also catching wind, it can have sufficient drag to "flip" the pin in exactly the opposite direction you might otherwise expect it.



Aaah - hadn't even thought of that! Thank you for the info! I don't try to actually push the pin, the goal is to just feel it - but now it's even more important! I guess I count on the tight bridal protection of my rig - but that's not a smart thing either.

There is no can't. Only lack of knowledge or fear. Only you can fix your fear.

PMS #227 (just like the TV show)

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any other suggestions from other cam flyers, or anyone else for that matter?



I saw video at the weekend of an RW team climbing out. The tail had his main flap open. The camera proceeded to close the main flap while the team were completing their climb-out and exit count. She still nailed the exit shot too :)

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Think again. Mike Ortiz, formerly of the flyboyz (is he still at San Diego?) has a hand signal for this. It is the middle finger, basically saying you are fucked, your gear is compromised, belly out.



mike is in ARIZONA now! dammit. i hear he is starting his own military training biz out there in the desert. the finger is perfect, and it does sound like him... the coolest of the cool.

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