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flipwithit

hawaii skydiving collision

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Why is this NOT in the incidents forum?



Because a great number of incidents are not/no longer reported. Between liability, bad pub, inaccurate news stories and interpretations, and flaming, what is the upside to reporting it? [:/]

http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/breaking/20130119_2_injured_in_separate_skydiving_mishaps_on_North_Shore.html

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Why is this NOT in the incidents forum?



Because a great number of incidents are not/no longer reported. Between liability, bad pub, inaccurate news stories and interpretations, and flaming, what is the upside to reporting it? [:/]

http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/breaking/20130119_2_injured_in_separate_skydiving_mishaps_on_North_Shore.html



So, the Greenies don't have the ability to move this thread?:S

Don't Pull Low... Unless You ARE!!!
The pessimist says, "It can't get any worse than this." The optimist says, "Sure, it can."
Be fun, have safe.

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DSE is exactly right. I watched most of the first incident and a bit of the second incident. It was a rough day. I wouldn't dream of reporting it here for all of the reasons he mentioned.

The main reason I wouldn't personally report this is because although I was right there, I don't have all of the information. Many many times, someone reports an incident but is fuzzy on the details or reports what they thought happened, not what actually happened.

I'd also add, while there are certainly things that can be learned from any incident, reporting it here pretty much just turns it into the usual flotsam an jetsam spouting off crap that is either irrelevant or just plain wrong. There are some insightful things that come up but for the most part it is just noise. I don't see much benefit but I do see a lot of reasons to be very careful about what is presented here.




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Pretending bad things in the sport don't happen isn't going to make them go away.

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Not reporting an incident is potentially allowing others to suffer the same fate. That's not how you give back to the sport.

Just saying...



Reporting an incident that may have legal repercussions for one or more parties is potentially causing someone to suffer unduly because of misinformation. That's not how you give back to the sport.

A canopy collision occurred; only the two people directly involved can accurately comment on what happened. From the ground it was hard to watch, but turned out (thankfully) better than everyone observing had anticipated.

Lessons from the ground are similar to other collisions.

~clear your airspace before initiating any turn
~low man has the right of way
~Communicate if you are wrapped up/entangled with someone else before cutting away.

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"Reporting an incident that may have legal repercussions for one or more parties is potentially causing someone to suffer unduly because of misinformation."

Having to face consequences for being negligent? What a concept...



Do you really want skydivers to start suing other skydivers? Or do you want to make it easier for anyone to sue DZ operators? Reporting incidents on a public forum like this is not smart. Especially because most of the stuff that gets reported here is inaccurate and ends up with blame being tossed around by lots of uninformed people.

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You don't give back to the sport by reporting speculation. I have some pretty strong opinions as to what happened with both incidents, but they are just that, opinions. I don't actually know what happened, only what I saw and heard around the DZ. In this case, that's not enough. If I were to report just that, it would be doing the people who were involved and the people who were reading it a disservice.

It is my opinion that the only people who should be reporting an incident are the people who were directly involved with it or someone (S&TA or someone who is officially sorting this out) who has really investigated the incident. Take a look at the incidents section. Most of that is just noise with a few really good reports in there as well.

I saw an excellent example of how to report something not too long ago. A question came up that Ian Drennan had some information about. He chimed in, told everybody that there was an investigation going on and that he didn't want to comment or encourage speculation until it was complete. Later when he had all of the pieces of the puzzle he came back and discussed what the investigation turned up. I thought that was so classy and well done.





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Not reporting an incident is potentially allowing others to suffer the same fate. That's not how you give back to the sport.

Just saying...

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Not reporting an incident is potentially allowing others to suffer the same fate. That's not how you give back to the sport.

Just saying...



Reporting an incident that may have legal repercussions for one or more parties is potentially causing someone to suffer unduly because of misinformation. That's not how you give back to the sport.



It may be true, but it is a really shit problem to have. No wonder the USPA incident reporting system is dysfunctional, and people in the US are doomed to keep repeating the same mistakes.

Granted the speculative nature of the posts we have here offer questionable benefit. Rarely does the discussion through much light on the subject, and 90% of the posts are simply repeating the same advice. I still learn from some incidents though...
Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

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what is the upside to reporting it? [:/]


Discussion and learning opportunities.
Even the 'speculation' that some whine about generates new topics for discussion and more learning opportunities.

Let's not get all involved with tunnel vision thinking every post in the thread should be strictly about the facts of the incident.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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what is the upside to reporting it? [:/]


Discussion and learning opportunities.
Even the 'speculation' that some whine about generates new topics for discussion and more learning opportunities.

Let's not get all involved with tunnel vision thinking every post in the thread should be strictly about the facts of the incident.



Pops come on. The vast majority of threads I've read in the incidents forum are garbage. Heavy on speculation, heavy on absolute statements, and hilariously dysfunctional blame gaming. If we could get to the place where there are incident reports like APF puts out, and then we discussed it a little further here that would be constructive and helpful. Largely what is going on today isn't.

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"Do you really want skydivers to start suing other skydivers? Or do you want to make it easier for anyone to sue DZ operators?"

No. That's not my intent. I do want to be able to fly my pattern in peace, w/o getting taken out by some Sky God wannabe :S. The facts on this incident aren't in, yet. It sounds like someone strafed through the regular pattern, & took someone else out. Maybe that will come to light in this case. Maybe it will be disproven. Either way, similarly guilty parties will realize they may well face consequences if they recklessly endanger the rest of us. I don't think making the skies safer for All is a bad thing.

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"The vast majority of threads I've read in the incidents forum are garbage. Heavy on speculation, heavy on absolute statements, and hilariously dysfunctional blame gaming."

Dunno. I've certainly seen that behavior. I've also seen the Mods stop that garbage on more of the threads. Then, the facts have been hashed out. Some of what's been established on threads like that might be of little worth to jumpers w/more experience. I've derived a lot of benefit from reading the incident forums, though.

Perhaps we can start going over hypothetical incidents? Take incidents from years ago, & change all identifying aspects of it. Get the lessons out there that way. Does that sound better? Everyone running for cover for fear of litigation, does no one any good.

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"I saw an excellent example of how to report something not too long ago. A question came up that Ian Drennan had some information about. He chimed in, told everybody that there was an investigation going on and that he didn't want to comment or encourage speculation until it was complete. Later when he had all of the pieces of the puzzle he came back and discussed what the investigation turned up. I thought that was so classy and well done."

Sounds good. I haven't seen that happen often, though. More often, I think fear of litigation or ridicule keeps mouths shut, indefinitely. There's got to be a better way to get the knowledge out there from hard-won lessons.

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No. That's not what happened at all, even a little bit.

That kind of speculation and crap slinging is exactly what I'm talking about. Think of that post as a shining example of what not to do.



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It sounds like someone strafed through the regular pattern, & took someone else out. Maybe that will come to light in this case..........

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Here:

"Maybe it will be disproven. Either way, similarly guilty parties will realize they may well face consequences if they recklessly endanger the rest of us. I don't think making the skies safer for All is a bad thing."

You had forgotten the rest of that quote. Don't hide behind the mud-slinging excuse. I specifically worded that to show it may or may not be the case in this incident.

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