Dumping in a track?

[LiborJanicek 0]

A couple of months ago I did some pre-wingsuit training jump in Lodi. Not exactly a full track position but it's the only video I have at my work. I've slowed the video down to 25%.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bg7fLz85aCg

Yes, I have a pink and purple canopy and it's a only PD 190. In the process of getting a new canopy.

[scottd818 0]

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A couple of months ago I did some pre-wingsuit training jump in Lodi. Not exactly a full track position but it's the only video I have at my work. I've slowed the video down to 25%.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bg7fLz85aCg

Yes, I have a pink and purple canopy and it's a only PD 190. In the process of getting a new canopy.

cLICKY

[LiborJanicek 0]

how do u make the link work?

[dthames 0]

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In normal freefall you are falling vertically at 120 mph. In a track you are falling a some speed less than 120 mph vertically. Some of your vertical speed is changed to horizontal speed. But a no time are you exceeding 120 mph. This can only happen if you go head down into a dive. Since you haven’t increased your speed or your weight there will be no increase in opening loads. The thing that has changed is relative wind. This will cause your body to rotate to a greater degree.

This is another urban myth that has been repeated so often it became fact.

Sparky

Sparky,

If you are falling vertically and flying horizontally at the same time, for example 113 MPH vertical and 74 MPH horizontal your diagonally speed through the air would be 135 MPH. In that case the opening forces would be considerably more than at 120 MPH.

That is using old math, if I remember it correctly..

Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

[Arvoitus 1]

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how do u make the link work?

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4376483

Your rights end where my feelings begin.

[mjosparky 3]

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In normal freefall you are falling vertically at 120 mph. In a track you are falling a some speed less than 120 mph vertically. Some of your vertical speed is changed to horizontal speed. But a no time are you exceeding 120 mph. This can only happen if you go head down into a dive. Since you haven’t increased your speed or your weight there will be no increase in opening loads. The thing that has changed is relative wind. This will cause your body to rotate to a greater degree.

This is another urban myth that has been repeated so often it became fact.

Sparky

Sparky,

If you are falling vertically and flying horizontally at the same time, for example 113 MPH vertical and 74 MPH horizontal your diagonally speed through the air would be 135 MPH. In that case the opening forces would be considerably more than at 120 MPH.

That is using old math, if I remember it correctly..

If you are doing 74 mph horizontal you will not be traveling as 113 mph vertically. I could be wrong but I doubt anyone will get 74 mph horizontally in a track without a wing suit.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[dthames 0]

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In normal freefall you are falling vertically at 120 mph. In a track you are falling a some speed less than 120 mph vertically. Some of your vertical speed is changed to horizontal speed. But a no time are you exceeding 120 mph. This can only happen if you go head down into a dive. Since you haven’t increased your speed or your weight there will be no increase in opening loads. The thing that has changed is relative wind. This will cause your body to rotate to a greater degree.

This is another urban myth that has been repeated so often it became fact.

Sparky

Sparky,

If you are falling vertically and flying horizontally at the same time, for example 113 MPH vertical and 74 MPH horizontal your diagonally speed through the air would be 135 MPH. In that case the opening forces would be considerably more than at 120 MPH.

That is using old math, if I remember it correctly..

If you are doing 74 mph horizontal you will not be traveling as 113 mph vertically. I could be wrong but I doubt anyone will get 74 mph horizontally in a track without a wing suit.

Sparky

The numbers I used as an example were about 2 seconds after I stopped tracking on a jump 3 Sept 2012. I had been tracking hard for about 18 seconds before I let up to start slowing down. Those were the GPS recorded speed(s), which are really all I have to go on. I was tracking perpendicular to the jump run, which was into the wind. This jump was not unusually fast, as the top speed was pretty typical for this type jump.

The data for this jump starts on page 9, “Sept 3, jump 1”

http://pyrodan.privatedata.com/skydive/tracking/tracking-data-sept-1-3.pdf

I will admit I was wearing a pair of modified Adidas windbreaker type pants. They were modified to inflate, but as you can see in the video, they don’t really inflate.

Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

[mjosparky 3]

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In normal freefall you are falling vertically at 120 mph. In a track you are falling a some speed less than 120 mph vertically. Some of your vertical speed is changed to horizontal speed. But a no time are you exceeding 120 mph. This can only happen if you go head down into a dive. Since you haven’t increased your speed or your weight there will be no increase in opening loads. The thing that has changed is relative wind. This will cause your body to rotate to a greater degree.

This is another urban myth that has been repeated so often it became fact.

Sparky

Sparky,

If you are falling vertically and flying horizontally at the same time, for example 113 MPH vertical and 74 MPH horizontal your diagonally speed through the air would be 135 MPH. In that case the opening forces would be considerably more than at 120 MPH.

That is using old math, if I remember it correctly..

If you are doing 74 mph horizontal you will not be traveling as 113 mph vertically. I could be wrong but I doubt anyone will get 74 mph horizontally in a track without a wing suit.

Sparky

The numbers I used as an example were about 2 seconds after I stopped tracking on a jump 3 Sept 2012. I had been tracking hard for about 18 seconds before I let up to start slowing down. Those were the GPS recorded speed(s), which are really all I have to go on. I was tracking perpendicular to the jump run, which was into the wind. This jump was not unusually fast, as the top speed was pretty typical for this type jump.

The data for this jump starts on page 9, “Sept 3, jump 1”

http://pyrodan.privatedata.com/skydive/tracking/tracking-data-sept-1-3.pdf

I will admit I was wearing a pair of modified Adidas windbreaker type pants. They were modified to inflate, but as you can see in the video, they don’t really inflate.

It appears you are going into a dive, gaining excessive speed and converting that to a brief spurt of horizontal speed. Start from a static freefall postion and maintain the horizontal speed for about 30 seconds.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[davelepka 4]

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Not exactly a full track position

It's actually pretty far from a track. Truth is, dropping your knees like that does quite a bit to counter the negative effects you can get from dumping in a track. For one, if you were head low in your track in any way (which is where the 'whip' would come from) dropping your knees will rotate you upwards and coutner that. Additionally, dropping your knees will also kill off a ton of forward speed and helps to control your deployment speed.

What you were doing was good practice for wingsuiting for two reasons - one being that it gives you experience pulling with both of your hands back at your sides. The other is that there is some degree of the canopy opening behind you, so you get used to the canopy sitting you up a little 'further' and opening somewhat behind you. Both very good things, but a different exercise than pulling in a track.

[cbuffalino 0]

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I have done it a couple of times by mistake and I am now a lot more careful to give myself plenty of time to slow down.

My first jump this season I Dumped while in a track because I was anxious about pulling at the right altitude (pre A license). This error of judgement resulted in me being pulled extremely quickly in the opposite direction and my leg becoming tangled in my risers. Thankfully my shoe came off and I returned to a normal position. A friend told me to make sure I slowed down to a safe speed and to take the extra seconds to breathe and stableize before pulling.

Being pulled in the opposite direction would have moved you legs and feet away from the opening canopy. It sounds like you were in a head down position rather then a track.

Sparky

Well I've never experimented with head down, however I was definitely cruising! It was a very very steep track by my best estimation. But if I achieved a head down, maybe it wasn't such a bad event.. jk

Never give up on something you can't go a day without thinking about.

[champu 1]

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i jump a pilot and get consistand 600-900 openings...

A 900 ft opening sounds like a cleared malfunction. Seriously, there's no reason for a canopy to take that long*.

* unless you define "opening" to mean "looking at your altimeter, waving off, picking your nose, pulling, opening, screwing with your slider, and popping your brakes."

[EFS4LIFE 0]

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Seriously, there's no reason for a canopy to take that long*.

My canopy consistantly takes 1000 feet to open. Every jump.

How?

Had Brian Germain install a pocketed slider. He designed the canopy and listed it as an option for those that want a slower opening.

Why?

I have a bum neck from a motorcylce wreck (C4-C5) and when I jump cameras I need the softest openings I can get. Granted, I kinda wish it would open a little quicker when I am not wearing cameras, but instead of constanly changing out the slider or trying to afford a second rig, I just pull a little higher than most.

People can have their own reasons for a slow opener. If you look at the evolution of canopies over the past couple decades haven't they, generally speaking, become slower opening? I Wonder what that trend is about?

I am an asshole, but I am honest

[champu 1]

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I have a bum neck from a motorcylce wreck (C4-C5) and when I jump cameras I need the softest openings I can get. Granted, I kinda wish it would open a little quicker when I am not wearing cameras, but instead of constanly changing out the slider or trying to afford a second rig, I just pull a little higher than most.

People can have their own reasons for a slow opener. If you look at the evolution of canopies over the past couple decades haven't they, generally speaking, become slower opening? I Wonder what that trend is about?

I don't have any previous neck injuries but I do quite routinely jump with cameras on my head. So, to be clear, I definitely appreciate soft openings. But 500 ft or so is all you should need for a canopy to open comfortably in a properly staged fashion. Several years ago I had a 1000 ft opening on a katana 107 and it was because a tension knot caused the slider to hang up and it required action on my part to clear it.

Often I find I'm talking apples to oranges though in what I consider to be "opening" vs folks who claim to have 800, 900, or 1000 ft "openings."

[EFS4LIFE 0]

***I don't have any previous neck injuries***

Be glad you don't brother. Talk about a pain in the ass, or er neck. There is nothing like cervical nerve pain. I get what your saying about apples to oranges, but I assure you mine does take 1000 feet. Before stowing slider, grabbing toggles, etc. A most chopped when a packer at Couch Freaks rolled my nose or some shit and I had a 1600 foot opening. Have about two seasons of video to prove it. I also assure you that my neck feels A LOT better with my current setup when I wear cameras then my previous canopy. I agree a canopy doesn't need to take 1000 feet to open softly, that is softly for someone without a buldging disc and camera gear strapped to their noggin. My openings I think you would consider TOO SOFT lol, but that is the way my neck likes em.

I am an asshole, but I am honest

[EFS4LIFE 0]

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Several years ago I had a 1000 ft opening on a katana 107 and it was because a tension knot caused the slider to hang up and it required action on my part to clear it.

My slider hangs up every jump, but on purpose by pockets on the slider, no tension knots required.

Talk about thread drift though. My bad.

As far a deploying in a track I agree with the poster that stated wait until you have experience getting a real ggod flat track. Newbies will be asking for a spanking because they tend to have a steep dive.

I am an asshole, but I am honest

[davelepka 4]

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I assure you mine does take 1000 feet. Before stowing slider, grabbing toggles, etc. A most chopped when a packer at Couch Freaks rolled my nose or some shit and I had a 1600 foot opening.

I'm sorry, but that is just flat out dumb. If you want a canopy that takes 1000ft to open, fine, but once it's out and has confirmed that it's not going to spank you there's no reason to sit there for the rest of the snivel like a side of beef. Reach up and grab the rear risers, slowly pull down on them, and the slider will come down quicker.

To sit there through 1600ft and take no action is absurd.

You're on the 'long' end of what people consider acceptable for canopy opening, which is OK if you're alone but you're not. When you're jumping with others, you may find yourself lower than you expected.

If you fly camera, tandems and students both have deployment problems that suck them down, and you still need to allow for adequate seperation after they open.

If you're just filming fun jumpers, one good funnel right before break off can put you right in the middle of a huge cluster-fuck full of people, where your best opetion becomes tracking for the hills, and taking it deep.

In either of the above scenarios, you're buring altitude with rediculously long snivels, and all you're doing is putting off a control check or even seeing if it's just your long snivel, or an actual tension knot.

If you have a neck injury, the real solution would be to stop jumping a camera immediately. Still jump a soft opening canopy, but putting extra weight on your head in light of your previous injury seems like a very bad idea. If you insist, and also want to jump an over-slidered canopy to compensate, learn to bring your slider down with your rear risers, and take an active role in your deployments. Burning up that kind of altitude could come back to bite you sooner or later.

[EFS4LIFE 0]

Dave

Thanks or the comment.

What you are saying though is kinda DUMB in my opinion. Kind of like in another thread you making fun of a jumper for checking his altimeter. I kept my mouth shut on that one though. You shouldn't start yanking on risers with a full eliptical. Causes all kinds of problems. Getting asymetrical in the harness. Easily oversteering your canopy into line twist, etc. PD wouldn't agree with you either. Give them a call, or go read their recommendations. I elect to break off a little higher than some people in the group may want. They deal with the higher breakoff or I it can be planned that I pull in place. I pitch at 4 they pitch at 3 only difference is I snivel longer. Almost your whole post deals with me being low....Um altitude awareness. If I am filming a tandem and the instructor hasn't pulled by 5 guess what fuck the opening shot I am tracking away and deploying by 4. I always pull at 4 period. Gives me plenty of time, and even at large boogies no one has ever said anything because my ass snivels down to 3 or 2.8 My canopy is never open high. It is not like I am giving someone advice or anything just stating for good reasons some people desire a slow opening canopy. I agree the 1600 foot one I probably should have grabbed the risers at that point. but just when I thought hmm this is taking longer than usual, it opened. I learned not to use a packer, that is all.

I respect you as an expereinced jumper, but that doesn't mean I have to tow the line with everything that comes out of your mouth. Do you have a bad neck? Do you have any expereince with that? Where do you get off telling me what to do, i.e. stop jumping camera? I have seen a neurosurgeon and I am fine. I have a class 3 medical in which the FAA knows about my neck situation too. Want me to attach the letter from them? (FAA) Physical Therapy helps with the pain, and it is not bad enough for surgery. Traction usually keeps it in check fine. Are you a doctor? I must have missed that in your profile.

You "usaully" give good advice, but sometimes you swing and miss. I realize I am a baby to you with 550 jumps, but it's my neck, my parachute, and my fucking life. If I am not putting others, or even myself, in danger so you have no say.

PM me if you wish but lets not highjack this thread into a bitch session.

I am an asshole, but I am honest

[davelepka 4]

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What you are saying though is kinda DUMB in my opinion. Kind of like in another thread you making fun of a jumper for checking his altimeter. I kept my mouth shut on that one though

Right. That comment was in regards to a guy who thought he was a 'pro' jumper, and the alti check that I mocked was on a hop n pop. He looked at his alti 3 or 4 times in the course of a 5 second delay. It's 5 seconds, check your alti in the plane, exit, count to 5.

I did not, and will not get down on someone for being altitude aware on a skydive long enough to lose altitude awareness. But a 5 second delay? Get a grip.

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You shouldn't start yanking on risers with a full eliptical.

Thanks for the update. FYI, I put 3000+ jumps on a pile of Stilettos (aka the 'Spinetto') before I moved to a Velo (not that a Velo is any more docile). Much like the above jumper I mocked, if you cannot control your canopy (to include pumping the slider down) then you are jumping the wrong canopy.

Show me one qualifed jumper on an eliptical or HP canopy who thinks that pumping the slider down on a long snivel is a bad idea. Remeber, I said 'qualifed'.

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They deal with the higher breakoff or I it can be planned that I pull in place. I pitch at 4 they pitch at 3 only difference is I snivel longer. Almost your whole post deals with me being low....Um altitude awareness.

And your whole premise for why you will not be low is based on things going to plan, and if you notice, all of my examples involve things going off-plan, as they have a tendency to do. Your choice of equipment, or more specifically, how you use it, has created a possibility to paint yourself into a corner, altitude-wise. A large number of skydivers have gone in under partially inflated reserves, where all they needed was just another 100 or 200 ft to allow for a full (or even survivable) reserve inflation. God help you if you spend that 100 or 200 extra feet hanging 'dead' in your harness while your canopy needlessly snivels away.

I'm not going to address your medical concerns because I am not a doctor. I don't think my previous comment stryaed much out of medical laymens territory. If you have such a grevious neck injury that you need to make these accomodations to deal with it, it doesn't take 6 years at Johns Hopkins to know that you shouldn't be carrying extra weight on your head, and then deploying parachutes. Ever consider what would happen if you had a terminal reserve deployment? How long do you think that will snivel?

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I agree the 1600 foot one I probably should have grabbed the risers at that point. but just when I thought hmm this is taking longer than usual, it opened. I learned not to use a packer, that is all.

PM me if you wish but lets not highjack this thread into a bitch session.

And therein lies the problem, all you learned after snivelign through 1600ft with a good canopy over your head was not to use a packer. Point = missed.

I declined your PM invitation because even if you don't seem to want to learn anything, I thought this was a prime opportunity for the community to see how NOT to approach certain issues, and my follow up post was the 'why'. I would say that at least half of my posts aren't even directed at the person I'm replying to, but at the community in general. If I see a chance to make an example of someone, or a situation, that can get good info out there and into the heads of some new jumpers, I'll take it.

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I realize I am a baby to you with 550 jumps, but it's my neck, my parachute, and my fucking life. If I am not putting others, or even myself, in danger so you have no say.

Do what you want with your life, but don't post your 'plans' for all to see without spelling out that it's not the best idea, and that you're willing to accept the additional risk due to extenuating circumstances. People will read that and ingest it as a 'good idea', and who knows where or when they'll bring it back to the surface and use it in their own decision making process.

See? In that way, it's not just you and your life. They're called horizons, broaden yours.

[EFS4LIFE 0]

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I declined your PM invitation

I never sent you a PM. I said lets continue this in PM instead of highjacking the thread. You missed the point obviously, because the highjack continues...

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I did not, and will not get down on someone for being altitude aware

But you did. Your whole comment is counter to that. In the video in question he appeared to me to check his altitude every 2-3 seconds, just like I train my students. It is irrelevant if you think he shouldn't need to do this with his experience, or his own perception of his experience. It is what he should do. We could sit here and talk about what if since you love to do that aparently. What if his alti got stuck after his first check? Wouldn't you want that info as soon as possible? What if it flew off? I have seen that happen. Bottom line you came off as just trying to rip him, and IMO you were dead wrong. Young jumpers shouldn't be reading someone like you making fun of another jumper for checking his altitude to much. Like you said broaden you horizons. If you can't admit when your wrong...well....

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Show me one qualifed jumper on an eliptical or HP canopy who thinks that pumping the slider down on a long snivel is a bad idea.

The best thing to do is maintain an even position in the harness, allow your canopy to "seek" during the snivel and let it do it's thing. With over 5,000 jumps I am surpirsed you don't know this. Haven't you seen all those youtube videos of idiots try to steer their canopy with the rears during the snivel and oops end up chopping? I am not trying to school you. You are the one attempting the "schooling" as always. If you want to go ask the manufacture of the canopy you jump what you should be doing during a snivel. I highly suggest you do. Just have the balls to post their reply please. I guess you have more experience then the guys that made your canopy though and know better. Ego much..

Fucking Velocities are well know to have a slow inflation portion, and can take 800-1000 feet before fully open. I haven't jumped one, but I sure have packed enough of them and watch their openings. My neck enjoys all the deceleration I acheive in my snivel. I want every once of it. When I am coming out of my snivel at the same altitude as people pitching lower then there is no further increased risk. We both have similar altitude from that point to deal with shit. So I am not painting my self into a corner. I am pulling higher. Your "but what happens when you don't?" is bogus. What happens when shit goes bad and you don't pull on time? Lets not play this game.

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all of my examples involve things going off-plan, as they have a tendency to do.

And I could sit her and come up with a thousands things that could go off plan for you and kill you.

I pull higher. IMO everyone should. Bill Booth thinks that deployment heights need to be raised too, along with AAD activation altitudes. I tend to agree.

I know my canopy. I know it's natural time in a snivel. I plan and jump accordingly. You can say it is a bad idea but you don't deal with this neck and know what is the proper balance in my situation. I might be a baby to you, but I am grown up enough to be able to make that determination myself and I am the only one that should be making that determination to. No one else has to live with my neck or my canopy. I do.

You sit here an act like a jumper with over 500 jumps (me) doesn't know that pulling rears or pumping breaks will cause a slider to come down? Don't you think I teach that in my FJC? I just also know it can, and has caused many cutaways on fully ellipticals. I aparently am comfort in a snivel and you are not. Deal with it.

BTW I jump a skyhook to prevent being one of those guys without a fully inflated reserve too. I KNOW my equipment, and I am a very capable skydiver for 500 jumps. I know enough to know I don't know too much. You always tend to sound like you know everything. That scares me.

Edited to add: The jump with the 1600' opening I pitched at 4. I was open at 2.4 same altitude as guys pitching at 3. So it isn't "absurd" at all.

I am an asshole, but I am honest

[davelepka 4]

Like I said, many posts get to the point that I'm posting for the benefit of others, not the person I'm replying to.

In this case, I feel like I've made my point, and I'm content to let the general public decide who they think is right based on what I've already written. It's clear to me that you're not going to be swayed, so I'll refrain from continuing on.

However, I'd love to see hear your thoughts on what you wrote after you log another 500 to 1000 jumps. I didn't always look at things the way I do know, and I can think of more than one occasion in my early days when I made some really bad choices that I was sure (at the time) were right on the money.

[mjosparky 3]

You really don't know what you don't know. Hopefully you will live long enough to find out.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[scottd818 0]

i have started a new thread for you relating to how long your canopy takes to open so we can stay on topic hear.
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?poll=1&poll_id=9781&forum_id=18&poll_type=0&post_id=4378090&poll_answer_id=44988&do%3Dpoll_vote%3Bredo%3Dpost_view_flat%3Bpost%3D4378090%3Broot_post%3D4378090%3Bpoll%3Dresults%3B=Vote

[dthames 0]

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I have done it a couple of times by mistake and I am now a lot more careful to give myself plenty of time to slow down.

If you do a tracking dive and get going really fast, it takes a lot longer than some might expect to get slowed back down. 10 seconds for me on a recent jump before my horizontal speed was back to near zero. (GPS data)

Until you max out your horizontal speed, the longer you track (well) the faster you will be going. Just something to remember. You can really get up a head of steam after 15 seconds or more.

I replied to this post a few times back in Sept. Since then, as I have jumped, I have continued to think about this thread, as it has so many different opinions. I have made observations and collected GPS data during normal RW jumps and performance type tracking dives. On one recent solo tracking dive I just wanted to see how fast I could go. After pushing hard for a couple of tries, I just relaxed and coasted no attempt to maintain speed. My glide ratio shot up to over 1.0 during this phase. After about 7 seconds it was about time to deploy. Out of habit and for safety reasons, I went ahead and flared. I was startled at how much speed I still had and the force on my arms as I got big to put on the brakes.

If I know, or even think I might be going faster than normal, I will always slow down before deployment altitude if possible. 2 of 2 times I have had a sharp opening, it has been after tracking hard.

Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

[cbuffalino 0]

Out of curiosity: When I watch BASE videos online and see the wingsuiters and trackers pull they are almost always pulling while in a horizontally flying position- wingsuiters always. How is this different than in the skydiving environment and if it is the same, how is a proper deployment done when you are in a track/moving forward position?

Never give up on something you can't go a day without thinking about.

[FreeFallFiend 0]

For the most part you just take the pain. When tracking you can go back to box and arch after you dump. When flying a WS you want to flare the suit after pulling, shut down the leg, and keep the arms flying.

Fiend

I am about to take my last voyage, a great leap in the dark. - Thomas Hobbes.