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airdvr

Your AAD is broken...

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I was responding to a different poster who said that folks with AAD's and RSL's shouldnt be jumping... But you make an excellent point. AAD's aren't foolproof - which is exactly why they cannot be relied on but rather used as a last resort/last chance/when all else fails.

Everyone's situation is different. A student and his/her DZ and instructors all appreciate the AAD for the above mentioned reason, but for someone doing high performance canopy work an AAD can (and has) cause real problems... Am I correct?

So really it comes down to your personal preference and, as already mentioned in another post, wether or not your DZ MANDATES the use of an AAD. Doesn't really seem like there's a right or wrong, at least not to the point where anyone can pass judgement and say that if you prefer one over the other then you shouldn't be jumping. Screw that.

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Absolutely correct. Also, an AAD only activates the reserve. Back in the day we called them AOD's (automatic openers) but the lawyers made us change the name. I digress. You can find videos around where the cutting of the loop didn't launch the PC...that's a problem. I'll bet there's a couple of cases where 750 feet wasn't enough altitude for that weak PC to deploy the reserve. How about if you're tumbling? Easy to snag the PC somewhere. Again back in the day the AOD's had a bad quirk where they would fire for no apparent reason. Hmmm. History repeats itself. [:/]

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

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People who have an RSL on their rig aren't confident in their own abilities to pull the reserve after cutting away, and shouldn't be jumping.



Your comment has seriously irked me to the point where I'm not being productive at work but rather searching for ways to rebute. But I'll let the SIM do the talking for me:

"2. All students are to be equipped with the following equipment until they have obtained a USPA A license:

b. a piggyback harness and container system that includes a single-pointriser release and a reserve static line, except: (1) A student who has been cleared for freefall self-supervision may jump without a reserve static line upon endorsement from his or her supervising instructor. (2) Such endorsement may be for one jump or a series of jumps.

d. a functional automatic activation device that meets the manufacturer'srecommended service schedule"

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Shouldn't really matter, IMO. It's the generalization made that is offensive and downright illogical - Students are required to jump an RSL and AAD, therefore students are not confident in their ability to pull reserve after cutaway, therefore students shouldn't be jumping. There's no logical value to that.

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Doesn't matter about up jumpers either. I have both, have and will jump without either or both, and have proven (repeatedly :$) that I can pull my reserve.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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I know most skydivers have drank the koolaid, and think driving is more life threatening than skydiving,but I have to agree with you.
Skydiving is far more dangerous than driving.
People will quote numbers of deaths each year from each activity,and sure the number of people who die each year on the road are huge compared to the numbers killed skydiving,but the numbers of poeple who drive or ride as passengers in cars are massive compared to the numbers of not just skydivers,but even the total number of skydives made.
If you also look at the amount of time spent on the road compared to the amount of time spent skydiving,the time spent in the vehicle is once again massive compared to time spent skydiving.
I think skydiving is a blast,and love the feeling of that first split second off the step(the point of no return)but I do not believe it is safe,nor do I tell non skydivers that it is safe,and I have introduced alot of people to skydiving including my girlfriend who is now a coach and working on her riggers ticket.
I think AAD's offer a greater benefit to risk ratio,but have never had a problem skydiving without one ,and would jump without one again.
I think telling people they are dead when they leave the plane unless they pull is a good way to keep their attention on the life threatening situation they are about to place themselves into.

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i have always used an AAD. mine is due for its 4 year inspection in march. while it is being serviced i plan on jumping without it. i will be a little more choosey on the types of skydives and the people i am in the air with, but i do not see having no AAD as a reason to not jump.
"Never grow a wishbone, where your backbone ought to be."

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i will be a little more choosey on the types of skydives and the people i am in the air with

Once you've done that evaluation, continue to jump only on those kinds of loads. that way you're not relying on the AAD, but using it only as insurance.

Engaging in riskier behavior because of the "insurance" is relying on it.

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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i will be a little more choosey on the types of skydives and the people i am in the air with

Once you've done that evaluation, continue to jump only on those kinds of loads. that way you're not relying on the AAD, but using it only as insurance.

Engaging in riskier behavior because of the "insurance" is relying on it.

Wendy P.


BINGO! B|


IF you would do anything 'different' because of the status of an AAD or RSL, ~ ~ ya really need to re-think your priorities regarding the sport.

All you're doing is kidding yourself by 'shuffling the odds' around in your mind...that's a fools bet!










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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i will be a little more choosey on the types of skydives and the people i am in the air with

Once you've done that evaluation, continue to jump only on those kinds of loads. that way you're not relying on the AAD, but using it only as insurance.

Engaging in riskier behavior because of the "insurance" is relying on it.

Wendy P.



that is a very good point.
"Never grow a wishbone, where your backbone ought to be."

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And let's remember that, as jumpers from the 70's, we've probably been on loads that were at least as scary as what's available now. And that was when no one wore AAD's or RSL's.

We were obviously more desperate then :ph34r:. And then consider the gear that we jumped :o.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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Shouldn't really matter, IMO. It's the generalization made that is offensive and downright illogical - Students are required to jump an RSL and AAD, therefore students are not confident in their ability to pull reserve after cutaway, therefore students shouldn't be jumping. There's no logical value to that.



Hi

I disagree.

A lot of people don't know how their going to react once the shtf. Especially newer jumpers.

The staff and dzo know this and that's one of the reasons for the bells and whistles are required in some locations.

We had the misfortune of watching a first jump student on a S/l go in with a pc in tow to slow them down. The student was steady as a rock all the way to impact. No arm or leg movements just a nice arch.

A AAD may have saved their life if they were wearing A AAD.

I was there , I saw their arms and legs and arch because they were that close. I wasn't interested in watching the final impact so I turned my back and walked away.
One Jump Wonder

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People who have an RSL on their rig aren't confident in their own abilities to pull the reserve after cutting away, and shouldn't be jumping.



Spoken like a guy who has absolutely no idea how real gear emergencies can actually play out.

If you don't understand that there are circumstances that make pulling a reserve handle next to impossible (soft handle tucked under MLW, floating handle, rigging issues, randomness) and that having an RSL as a backup has true value, then you're the guy who shouldn't be jumping.

There are valid reasons for people who have specific gear considerations to not have an RSL. Not understanding potential problems is NOT one of them. Seriously.
Owned by Remi #?

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People who have an RSL on their rig aren't confident in their own abilities to pull the reserve after cutting away, and shouldn't be jumping.



Spoken like a guy who has absolutely no idea how real gear emergencies can actually play out.

If you don't understand that there are circumstances that make pulling a reserve handle next to impossible (soft handle tucked under MLW, floating handle, rigging issues, randomness) and that having an RSL as a backup has true value, then you're the guy who shouldn't be jumping.

There are valid reasons for people who have specific gear considerations to not have an RSL. Not understanding potential problems is NOT one of them. Seriously.

I can't edit my post for some reason so I'll just put this here.

I was being sarcastic, and deliberately using those words to refute a previous poster's similar argument about AADs.

I jump with both an AAD and an RSL (I wouldn't jump without either), and I agree that most jumpers should, for the reasons you described. I am aware that in some situations these safety devices can cause more trouble than they solve. I myself have disconnected my RSL after deployment to do some canopy flocking, and I know of at least one person who jumps a very highly loaded canopy and doesn't have an AAD.

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Dam right same goes for RSL/Skyhook



What does an RSL unarguably do for you, in all actuality? (I'll tell you, where clearly you don't seem to KNOW ...or at least consider) ...It takes away YOUR OPTION / CHOICE of when to activate your reserve, upon break-away.

What does a skyhook do for you, now even over and above what the aforementioned "standard RSL" does? (again - bet you haven't even considered) ...It adds ANOTHER LAYER OF COMPLICATION even further on top of #1 above.

"Darn right" - :S

It is a choice. ...and it needs to be RESPECTED as a choice.

- THINK
coitus non circum - Moab Stone

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i will be a little more choosey on the types of skydives and the people i am in the air with

Once you've done that evaluation, continue to jump only on those kinds of loads. that way you're not relying on the AAD, but using it only as insurance.

Engaging in riskier behavior because of the "insurance" is relying on it.

Wendy P.



I understand the point you are making (and it's useful to consider it that way), but I don't think the risk-reduction element of an AAD should be entirely ignored when deciding what types of jumps you might or might not make.

After all, one could say the same about a reserve parachute. Not all types of jumps pose the same risk, and since both items reduce risk, their use or non-use might reasonably be a factor in a decision whether or not a particular type of jump is above or below one's risk threshold.

Yeah, statistically a reserve alone is more likely to be needed than a reserve plus an AAD (so for most people, a reserve is a requirement to make any jump at all), but I see nothing wrong with someone deciding that, for example, a group jump that poses a higher risk of a mid-air collision is only worth the risk if they also have an AAD.

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What does an RSL unarguably do for you, in all actuality? (I'll tell you, where clearly you don't seem to KNOW ...or at least consider) ...It takes away YOUR OPTION / CHOICE of when to activate your reserve, upon break-away.


Does it really? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_static_line:
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The RSL can be disengaged by a skydiver in situations where it is desirable to detach the main parachute without deploying the reserve.


The RSL at least in all the containers that I have owned have had that functionality.

- Petri

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i will be a little more choosey on the types of skydives and the people i am in the air with

Once you've done that evaluation, continue to jump only on those kinds of loads. that way you're not relying on the AAD, but using it only as insurance.

Engaging in riskier behavior because of the "insurance" is relying on it.

Wendy P.



I understand the point you are making (and it's useful to consider it that way), but I don't think the risk-reduction element of an AAD should be entirely ignored when deciding what types of jumps you might or might not make.

After all, one could say the same about a reserve parachute. Not all types of jumps pose the same risk, and since both items reduce risk, their use or non-use might reasonably be a factor in a decision whether or not a particular type of jump is above or below one's risk threshold.

Yeah, statistically a reserve alone is more likely to be needed than a reserve plus an AAD (so for most people, a reserve is a requirement to make any jump at all), but I see nothing wrong with someone deciding that, for example, a group jump that poses a higher risk of a mid-air collision is only worth the risk if they also have an AAD.



thank you, you stated it much better than i did. i do a lot of tracking, and with no AAD i dont plan on making them big ways. i was not saying i rely on my AAd, but some things are more risky without one.
"Never grow a wishbone, where your backbone ought to be."

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What does an RSL unarguably do for you, in all actuality? (I'll tell you, where clearly you don't seem to KNOW ...or at least consider) ...It takes away YOUR OPTION / CHOICE of when to activate your reserve, upon break-away.



You misread his statement.

If it is connected when you breakaway, what's going to happen?

Oh Wait!!! I didn't want THAT to happen yet! I wanted to deploy the reserve later! Say, about 500 ft!
:o:D:D
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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thank you, you stated it much better than i did. i do a lot of tracking, and with no AAD i dont plan on making them big ways. i was not saying i rely on my AAd, but some things are more risky without one.




What you seem to be saying is that I'll only do bigways if I have an AAD to take care of the added risk.

Conversely, I'm depending on my AAD to allow me to do bigways.

Please don't construe that to mean that having an AAD on bigways is a bad thing.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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I know most skydivers have drank the koolaid, and think driving is more life threatening than skydiving,but I have to agree with you.
Skydiving is far more dangerous than driving.
People will quote numbers of deaths each year from each activity,and sure the number of people who die each year on the road are huge compared to the numbers killed skydiving,but the numbers of poeple who drive or ride as passengers in cars are massive compared to the numbers of not just skydivers,but even the total number of skydives made.



You've mentioned a very interesting topic.

The point is: Statistics are not relevant in ANY way for you and me as individuals.

Statistics analyze facts. Things that happened in the past. But they won't tell anyone how likely he is going to die jumping out of airplanes, nor will they tell us how many of us are going to die in the future doing it. "Risks" do not care about the number of total participants. If 4 of 10 persons die is the same risk as if 40.000 of 100.000 die. It just says how much you can expect to decease. Risks say: Multiply the number of participants by X and you can expect X times more fatalities. The risk stays the same.

Risks are not that one-dimensional as people want them to be.
I can turn my own risk to get injured or to die up to 100% by doing high performance landings which are totally beyond my experience.
I can increase my personal risk to die by spending a day jumping although I don't feel healthy at all and maybe won't have the concentration I need for an emergency case.
I can increase my personal risk by drinking a lot of beer before jumping instead of doing it in the evening, after I've made my jumps.
I could turn EVERY jump into a 100% chance although statistics say that it is actually just 1 of 110.000 and therefore 0,0009%.

The next thing, that you've already pointed out, is, that we don't know how these statistics were made. Do they analyze fatalities per jump? Fatalities per total number of jumpers worldwide? The same question for car accidents.

Driving a car is VERY dangerous.
But look around: People feel save driving a car. And thats the worst thing to happen. They will drive 200mph without even knowing that they're playing russian roulette. And when shtf there won't be enough time to react and their chances to survive sink to a minimum. If they had thought about that before, they'd keep their potential reaction time on an acceptable level and therefore they had decreased their chance to get seriously injured. But we all drive cars every day and therefore it will become routine. But routine kills.

Today, skydiving IS quite save, BECAUSE it is dangerous and participants KNOW that it is dangerous. That seems paradox, but as long as people stay aware of the risks, they will not do stupid things which could make them pay with their lives.

Unfortunately there are people and will always be, who don't get the point when experienced skydivers tell them that skydiving is not that dangerous at all. Its "save" as long as you play by the rules and stay on the save side of it. Its the same with scuba diving, snowboarding, paragliding, mountain biking... no matter which sport. Of course there will always be exceptions but in the end, every sport can kill you. Some sports just have more possibilities to do it and it's in our hands to look for and try to avoid them.
On the other hand, sadly some accidents happen although the jumper did everything right and is not guilty at all [:/] but lets mark that as part of the activity which is usually very unlikely to happen.

Nowadays we could get the "risk" of this beautiful sport to a minimum. A look at the incidents forum shows, that many accidents did not happen because of equipment failure. The "coolness" which comes with this sport often leads some individuals to a way of thinking which is not healthy at all. They will try to make a show for the tandemgirls by swooping into the landing area, they'll mount cameras on their helmets to record their jumps for facebook and youtube, just to get a bit more attention and pretend to be the "last action hero". All that beyond their skill level.

But skydiving is a sport which wants you to respect it. And we should better give it to it or it will come for us with all its consequences...

Thats what I wanted to say on this whole risk discussion.

To get back ontopic:

I think most of us would jump without an AAD.
But people who say, that jumpers who do not feel comfortable jumping without an AAD or RSL etc. should quit the sport, have a strange view on this topic.
It seems that they expect a jump to be perfect. But we should NEVER plan a skydive for the case that everything goes fine. And thats exactly what those people seem to do.
We should plan it for the worst case scenario.

There are several jumpers who died because they wanted to get stable after cutting away and therefore did not use a RSL. But unfortunately gravity did not wait for them to get stable. I'm not saying that its a stupid idea wanting to get stable before pulling silver but sometimes it needs more time than you actually have. And a parachute over your head has a bigger value than being stable when you impact.

Others were knocked unconscious and weren't able to pull by themselves. And such cases are THE ONLY reason for such devices. An AAD could have saved them. Of course it's not guaranteed but the chances are much higher to get an AAD-fire with an AAD equipped, than without an AAD equipped.
Everyone should think about scenarios like that before deciding for or against any safety feature.
They do not only have advantages. It's always that way in life: With light comes shadow.

All in all: If AAD/RSL/Skyhook etc or not. Every decision has its value and has to be respected as long they are evaluated well.

We are all humans and we will fail. Maybe we'll have a malfunction someday which we will not handle that easy, make the wrong decision and fight it until we realize that it was not the best idea to not cut away. And in such cases, safety features could save our lives.

AADs and so on are nice. But we should jump like we didn't have them. That would save much more lives than any AAD could ever save.


Sorry, if there are any spelling or grammar mistakes. English is not my mother tongue but I tried hard to do everything right.

Just my 2c

PS: Why the hell does the "Check Spelling" function on a skydiving board mark the word "skydiving" as misspelled? ;)

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