Appropriate canopy sizes for students

[Orange1 0]

OK, you all know where this comes from, I just wanted to escape the heat in the other thread.

There is a clear distinction between people who think the reserve size was OK and those who don't, and a poster who says that at her DZ students are put out at just under 1:1 on their first jump, that the smaller girls even get 150s.
[Maybe our guys are just really safety conscious here but I'm only just about to start jumping my 150, which will be just under 1:1, with my instructors having wanted me to wait till 50-60 jumps. This isn't because I can't fly a canopy btw, the feedback from a # of instructors at my DZ is that I am a good and conservative canopy pilot. ]

First: I think maybe some of those especially with hundreds and thousands of jumps, maybe forget what it is like to be new. Wasn't that long ago for me, I remember.

Second, and this is constantly repeated but seems often forgotten, WL is not the be-all and end-all. A 170 loaded at 1:1 does not fly the same as say a 230 at 1:1. Sure, they probably CAN be safely used - but my concern (OK and maybe I'm just totally anal about safety, that's fine, that's the way I like it) is that when something goes wrong on - whatever - anywhere between a 150 and 190 - the canopy is just far less forgiving than a boat. An example that is often used in articles etc is the tendency of people to put out their hands and turn unintentionally close to the ground - far more likely with a new jumper - rather be under a 230+ than a 170 when that hapens? I weigh the same as Shayna and I can tell you that I would NOT have been wanting to have to fly a 170 in single-digit jumps (admittedly I've never flown a 7-cell so it's not quite comparable).

Now, as I'm still completely green in this sport, I would like some general comment on what is seen as appropriate for students, preferably from instructors, canopy course coaches and experienced jumpers. for example: is 1:1 OK for 10 jumps regardless of canopy size? what is generally considered appropriate for a 1st jumper? etc...

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[artistcalledian 0]

there is a girl at my DZ who is being sold a 135 canopy, she only has 28 jumps and weighs 135 pounds also

________________________________________
drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police

[AFFI 0]

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I'm about to start jumping my 150, which will be just under 1:1, with my instructors having wanted me to wait till 50-60 jumps.

I would like some comment on the above preferably from instructors, canopy course coaches and experienced jumpers.

It seems to me by your own posting that you already have gotten "some comment on the above preferably from instructors" by saying "my instructors having wanted me to wait till 50-60 jumps".

There is likely no advice you will get online from individuals be they qualified or otherwise that will better inform you than the instructors that have personally seen you fly and have first hand knowledge concerning the skills and qualifications you possess concerning canopy choices.

I know skydivers that did not follow the advice of instructors that taught them and not have an incident and I also know some who regretted not following that advice because they had serious accidents as a result of flying a canopy they were not ready for. Canopy piloting mistakes can have an end result that is tragically violent and if you live often require an abundance of resources in medical bills and time out of the sport for rehabilitation.

Personally, I would recommend you follow the advice of your instructors.

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[Orange1 0]

Sorry badly worded - I didn't mean comments for me, I had no problem at all with the advice I was given - I meant for students in general on the canopies size issue.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

Just realised this overlaps with http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=56935;

fwiw according to Brian's chart Shayna's reserve was at minimum recommended, my 150 will be at minimum recommended, and no-one should be jumping a 135 at min recommended till they reach 100 jumps. Ian, btw was that 135lb you mentioned with or without gear? (And why don't you put your real jump #s in, huh?)

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[hexadecimal 0]

The student program you mention in your first post has produced many safe, successful skydivers... and it was developed by people who some might say know a thing or two about skydiving. I went through that program, and watched many others do the same. I haven't seen them put a student on a canopy they weren't ready for. If a student is having trouble landing or controlling a 190, 170, etc... they're definitely not going to be put on a smaller canopy.

[tso-d_chris 0]

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The student program you mention in your first post has produced many safe, successful skydivers... and it was developed by people who some might say know a thing or two about skydiving. I went through that program, and watched many others do the same. I haven't seen them put a student on a canopy they weren't ready for. If a student is having trouble landing or controlling a 190, 170, etc... they're definitely not going to be put on a smaller canopy.

From what I understand, the student program at SDC also has more in depth ground training. They don't just put students out on smaller canopies than normally used with students without suitable instruction.

Someone please correct me if this is incorrect.

For Great Deals on Gear

[hexadecimal 0]

That is correct as far as I know... though I personally am not extremely familiar with the ground instruction given in other programs beyond what I've heard from other people who have gone through them.

[Remster 24]

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at SDC also has more in depth ground training

I cant find the post between all the threads about this that have poped up lately, but a recent grad of SDC stated that he/she didnt get much ground training on canopy control.

Remster

[hexadecimal 0]

I think that was Jeth's post in the downsizing chart thread.

[tso-d_chris 0]

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at SDC also has more in depth ground training

I cant find the post between all the threads about this that have poped up lately, but a recent grad of SDC stated that he/she didnt get much ground training on canopy control.

Really? (Not doubting you) I haven't heard much about their program lately, but it got a lot of skydiving press when Roger Nelson began implementing it in the late 90s.

For Great Deals on Gear

[artistcalledian 0]

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Just realised this overlaps with http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=56935;

fwiw according to Brian's chart Shayna's reserve was at minimum recommended, my 150 will be at minimum recommended, and no-one should be jumping a 135 at min recommended till they reach 100 jumps. Ian, btw was that 135lb you mentioned with or without gear? (And why don't you put your real jump #s in, huh?)

without gear, and that is my real jumps number

________________________________________
drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police

[Shark 0]

Ask yourself what your student will "look" like when they
fail to properly flare the smaller canopy you selected for them.

[Remster 24]

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I think that was Jeth's post in the downsizing chart thread.

Thanks for thats! http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1988514#1988514

Its too bad she didnt get the instructing that was intented. And that worries me in a program that puts people on more aggressive canopy based on the fact that they get more coaching.

Remster

[TF107 0]

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I think that was Jeth's post in the downsizing chart thread.

Thanks for thats! http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1988514#1988514

Its too bad she didnt get the instructing that was intented. And that worries me in a program that puts people on more aggressive canopy based on the fact that they get more coaching.

I went through SDC's AFP program in 2002 on a Sabre2 150, so I'll add my 2 cents to the conversation.

Contrary to Jeth's experience, I did get a high level of canopy control training during the course. The FJC spent considerable time on recognizing various canopy malfunctions and how to deal with them (including knowing when to stop trying to fix it), how to fly a landing pattern, and how to flare.

The briefing I got from my instructors before each jump included a review of not only the dive-plan, but also the canopy control goals for that jump. I practiced flying in brakes, braked turns, rear-riser turns, and attempts to do front riser turns (though I lacked the upper body strength to succeed), and discussed these maneuvers during the debrief with my instructor after the jump.

As to whether or not it was an appropriately sized canopy for me as a student, I would have to say yes. Was I a "natural" at canopy flight? No, absolutely not. Many of my landings were "less than stellar" as I liked to say, but I did walk away from all of them (the PLF was my friend).

Though I accept the possibility that perhaps that was a matter of luck rather than the result of competent training to the level required, I don't believe that to be the case. That is my opinion, though I do not have enough experience to state that definitively. So for me, it was a successful training program, but I can't say that it would be for everyone.

Those are my experiences and opinions; take them for what they are worth.

[faulknerwn 36]

Out of curiosity - how big are you - what kind of wing-loading did you have on the 150?

W

[TF107 0]

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Out of curiosity - how big are you - what kind of wing-loading did you have on the 150?

W

At the time, I weighed about 110 lbs., so I loaded the 150 at about a .9. I don't have my log books in front of me, but if I remember correctly, I stayed on the 150 for about 40 jumps, then switched to the 135 (also Sabre2), which is the canopy I ended up buying and have been on for the last 200+ jumps.

[Yossarian 0]

at my dz all students (raps at least) are on 288's until they qualify, regardless of how many jumps it takes them to do so (one guy took over 40) i was very bored of a 288 by the time i was finished on 28jumps but im only now jumping a 170 (im 11 stone), and theres no way i would have jumped anything below a 210 in my first few jumps, as it turns out im ok under canopy but ive seen many many students who would be either dead or very badly hurt if theyd been jumping anything as responsive as a 150, people putting their hands up, asymetrical flaring, no flaring and 30ft flaring etc is bad enough on a docile 210 for the inexperienced

[azureriders 0]

I keep hearing different people say that all students (at thier DZ, should, etc) jump 288's. Is this really that common and if so how do the smaller guys ever get any wind penatration. Seems to me that they would either be backing up or on wind hold almost every day.

I have jumped a manta on every one of my jumps, but my wing load on it has been between .9 and .95 to 1.

[Ragnarok 0]

Does the level of 'performance' a canopy has impact how it flies more than the wingloading it is subject to? I would think a more forgiving canopy at the same wing loading versus a more aggressive (higher performance) canopy can be the difference between sucessful piloting and coming in too hard.

Too bad there is no wind tunnel to train on a canopy..............

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Cessna P206 N2537X, 19 April 2008
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