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Rachel22

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Well this was a lot to wake up to. My fiance had a long talk about everyones post. He has asked me to stop posting because it does nothing but get me upset and we know what we need to do and we know what my instructors need me to do. Good luck and blue skies to everyone.



Wow! .... just WOW? Um, not buying that statement. You came here looking for advice. Read all that you can here, good or bad, and discuss it with your instructors. Not everything posted here (especially from me :$) is good info, but you're an adult. It's always good to hear both sides of any story.

Or, do what the S.O. has suggested. .... but then please change your user name to SkyPuppet. :P
Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

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My case is similar to the OP.
I'm 5'6 and weigh on the lighter side at 130.
I just have 30 jumps under my belt.

Currently I am running the Spectre 210 which puts my WL at .76 (according to http://www.flyfirebird.com/catalog/information.php/info_id/14 and using a conservative estimate on equipment weight at 30lbs)
When I downsize to a 200sqft the WL will be at 0.8.
At a 190 the WL would be 0.84.

At my targeted goal of a 170sqft my WL would be 0.94

My ideal (where considering a WL of 1:1) would be a 150sqft with a WL of 1.07.

IF i had the money to buy a rig would going straight from a WL of .76 to 1.07 be ok (considering I have not taken a canopy course or have flown the 210 canopy to it's potential)? For me (and others might disagree) going from a .76 to a 1.07 and from going to a completely different canopy this would not be my course of action.
Sure a WL 1.07 would be the ideal but I just think it is a big leap coming from a .76. And for me, taking that extra risk is not acceptable.

So for the OP, let's first assume you can handle the 170sqft canopy (includes doing flat turns, flying in 1/2brakes, landing downwind, landing no wind, using rear and front risers, and avoiding unexpected collisions).

Now, let's assume on your 150sqft demo you can do the same maneuvers as your 170. Let's take your total exit weight of 105 + 30 for the equipment (it could be lighter but let's just for argument sake err on the side of caution and make it 30,,,plus it makes the math easier) and get the WL for a 150sqft canopy == 0.9.
When you strap on that 135sqft canopy your WL would be exactly 1.0.

So now, I think the questions you might want to consider are:
Can I confidently operate a 135sqft canopy as i did with the 150?
Is moving from a .9 to a 1.0 wing load a drastic change?
Regardless of wing load can and without taking a canopy course should I be flying a smaller canopy.

Whichever course you take, those here in the forums are trying to help. After all you did ask for some advice. Sure you'll get some in the lot that will say other things but just like how i learned you have to grow some thick skin in this sport (well, maybe not since you are a woman :)Consult with an instructor or have them observe your performance.

In the end, it's your choice, your life. We all know the risks.

Good luck, congrats on your License, and blue skies.

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For what it's worth my situation is similar to Whamie. I'm 5"4 at 125lbs and think it would be good for the OP to hear my experience too. It may help to provide a point of view she can relate to.

Experienced skydivers and instructors alike tell me tha I have very good canopy handling control. This is due to the fact that I used to fly gliders solo before getting under a parachute. I've only ever had to PLF twice and one was my first jump. Every other landing has been super smooth.

As such I was fully confident in my skills to downsize. Just go give you an idea of my progression which I consider to be too quick at one point.

290 - 16 Jumps (lots of fun landing backwards with light winds)
260 - 17 Jumps
230 - 18 Jumps
200 - 5 Jumps
190 - 4 Jumps
170 - 56 Jumps

I feel I went from a 230 to a 170 pretty quick but I am 95% confident on this wing currently and it worked out ok. Many people (instructors included) believe I am ready for a 150 but it's that last 5% that worries me slightly and has kept me from downsizing. The following two factors made me think I'll spend at least another 100 - 150 jumps under this wing.

I had an incident 3 weeks ago where 30 feet from the ground in high winds a gust caught my parachute and semi-collapsed 2 of my end cells. My reaction to this was immediate and still pulled off a very soft landing. That gave me a LOT of confidence in my skills.

But then a week later in no-winds I flared a fraction of a second later than usual and my first step was a little heavy on the ground. I could feel that shock in my lower back for about an hour. It was at this point that I realized that had this been a 150 the impact would have been harder and probably caused some slight damage.

Like everyone said - you know your own skills. I would strongly advise against skipping the 150 wing for this reason...but that's just my 2c.

Chris

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290 - 16 Jumps (lots of fun landing backwards with light winds)
260 - 17 Jumps
230 - 18 Jumps
200 - 5 Jumps
190 - 4 Jumps
170 - 56 Jumps



You flew a 290?:o Man, for my progression i certainly do not want to move quickly to a larger WL...but similarly, i wouldn't want to fly a smaller WL too. I commend you for flying that 290! :)

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this is a horrible place to ask about canopy size advice. you will just get, "it's too small. " ask your real life instructors at your dz that know you and your abilities. honestly those are the only people who need to give you that type of feedback.



If her instructors haven't been watching her land out with low turns to down-wind landings on asphalt to avoid unseen obstacles they haven't seen enough to know she has the skills and appropriate psychological arousal level to perform well when it matters (as opposed to straight into the wind in a wide-open field) and suggest a more radical down-size than allowed by Brian Germain's writings.

If they have seen that on an ongoing basis she has bad judgement and shouldn't be down sizing either.

Choosing to follow advice from less experienced locals over industry recognized experts like Brian Germain is a bad idea unless those locals are advising a jumper to be more conservative than the standards for some reason (habit of landing on hanger roofs, can't walk fast on landing due to bad knees, etc.).

Instructor ratings are neither high bars to clear nor guarantees of good judgement. I knew at least three instructors who killed themselves with bad judgement under canopy, one more that almost died from internal bleeding due to poor canopy skills, and stopped counting instructors' broken bones a long time ago.

That said you don't need a smaller canopy to jump in winds. I never chose to jump my 105 in conditions I wasn't willing to jump my 245s.

Forward speed is proportional to the square root of wing loading, so a 135 is at most 12% faster than a 170 (at the same wing loading the 135 looses more to drag - seam size is the same, the lines are shorter but just as fat, the pilot has a lower sectional density). Data is hard to come by, although Paraflite rates their Intruder 360 military canopy at 26 MPH forward speed with a 200 pound load and 34 MPH at 300 pounds. EIFF reports 22 MPH forward speed for its draggy classic accuracy canopies at the ideal .65 wing loading for that discipline).

3-4 MPH isn't much. Headed into the wind it can make a big difference in your progress across the ground (with a 22 MPH horizontal component to your forward airspeed and 20 MPH head wind, an extra 4 MPH does triple ground speed into the wind) although you're _much_ better off just getting out far enough up wind and floating in a minimum sink rate facing down wind if you end up really far out.

Check the spot before you leap. If you're on a load with other groups that will make a fuss about you waiting in the door with the green light on let them go first.

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290 - 16 Jumps (lots of fun landing backwards with light winds)
260 - 17 Jumps
230 - 18 Jumps
200 - 5 Jumps
190 - 4 Jumps
170 - 56 Jumps



You flew a 290?:o Man, for my progression i certainly do not want to move quickly to a larger WL...but similarly, i wouldn't want to fly a smaller WL too. I commend you for flying that 290! :)


A 290 isn't that weird for students... Although 230 is getting more common here now. I for one had an exit weight of 150lbl when I started, and I had the following progression:

Student 288 with an occasional 230 thrown in: 50 jumps (that is a whopping WL of only 0,52! I landed out once, never landed backwards)
Rental 190: 15 jumps
rental 175:10 jumps
150 (my first canopy): I think up to 350 jumps, but jumped a lightning 143 as well.
135: up to 700 jumps (including lightning 126)
135+120: still jumping @ 2300ish jumps. Gained some weight in the meantime... B| Did some jumps on 109 and 104 sqft canopies but decided I wanted a bigger canopy. Oh, and I now own a 253 Foil as well B|

ciel bleu,
Saskia

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I'm not going to address the cutaway and EPs as I feel that has already been done very well by some people who have explained it very well and have way more experience than I do. I will simply say congrats on saving your life and now you have more/better information when you need to use your EPs again.

What I will address is the small canopy/wing-loading. And I do this knowing full well that I will take some crap for even mentioning that light girls shouldn't stay on 170s for their first 200 jumps. (Notice that I have very few posts and really only on this issue.) Every now and then it has to be said.

The people talking about how you need to load more conservatively have your best interests at heart. But very few people have the experience of being as tiny as you and dealing with 5-10mph that turn into 10-15mph being enough to blow you backwards or give you the horrible elevator ride landing. It also cheats you out of the canopy learning experience that a heavier person can often get more of during student status. And finally, it simply is not enjoyable to be fighting a huge canopy all the time.

You are fortunate to have been on a 170 as a student. And progressing to a 150 with the blessing of those who have seen you land is not unreasonable at your tiny size. Yes, you need to understand that a small amount of asymmetry will punish you more than the big guy/gal loading similarly on a larger canopy. I would be prepared to maybe do multiple demos so that you can get at least 50 jumps on a 150 in various conditions. And if you aren't 100% comfortable going to the 135, get a 150. They aren't had to come by and they aren't hard to unload. (Some guy who weighs 50 lbs more than you and has 50 jumps less than you will be happy to take it off your hands even though it's supposed to be the girls that get the free pass.)

I weighed about 10 pounds more than you and was on a 150 from jump 75ish to jump 300ish if I recall correctly. It wasn't tragic but I at least loaded it at .9. Going to a 135 was nothing. Now that may be because of the 200+ jumps I put on the 150. It may just be that it isn't as a huge a deal as people think at a low wingloading.

What I am worried about with you is why you immediately have a 135. Maybe I missed it, but in reading your initial post, you have purchased relatively old gear that is kinda okay for you to grow into. Did you buy it from someone at your dz? If so, that may be why you are being encouraged to go in that direction. You seem to like the sabre2, but you bought a spectre. Any particular reason?

I have nearly 1000 jumps. Not a lot for this forum, but it's something. Half on old canopies with old lines and half on a nice new safire2 119. Regardless of wingloading, do yourself a favor and fly a canopy in good condition with well-maintained lines. (It turns out new lines are cheaper than a couple cutaways.) This is huge for canopy progression.

And don't let anyone tell you that you should be on something more aggressive than you feel comfortable with. I still think it is very possible that if you are heads up and make good decisions in bad situations that 135 could be reasonable for you before the end of the season. But you need to be the one ready to make that decision. (And in a well-informed manner.) Not your man, not someone eager to sell you their gear, not someone trying to impress you by stoking your ego. These people may mean well, but they won't have to fly it when the shit hits the fan.

And do a canopy course. At another dz. Get a fresh set of eyes so that you can feel more confident. I didn't do one until last year...big mistake on my part to wait that long. It was never convenient, but I should have made it work somehow. Beyond amazing.

Best of luck! And watch out for you.

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My point is how dare you come on here and suggest that all advice about canopy sizing is just 'it's too small'. and is useless. There's a great deal of thought that leads to a suggestion from some posters here,



it's the interweb dude, not some magical place. i have as much right to say something as anyone else with a key board and wifi.

telling someone to get advice from people that know him/her personally and his/her skill level is not bad advice (and is just about all the canopy advice i am qualified to give).

unless you go and personally watch her canopy control and landings, you don't really know if you are giving her anything applicable.

it is common on this site for people to bash any wingloadings they think might be pushing the limit of experience for the poster, whom they know nothing about.

regardless she has already bought the canopy so her decision is made.

sorry i ruffled your feathers with the "it's to small" comment. it wasn't my intention, and i meant it as an off-hand remark.
"Never grow a wishbone, where your backbone ought to be."

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this is a horrible place to ask about canopy size advice. you will just get, "it's too small. " ask your real life instructors at your dz that know you and your abilities. honestly those are the only people who need to give you that type of feedback.



Mitch...this may not be good in this case. The OP has already said that locals have said the 135 was going to be OK...all based simply on landing abilities. Note no mention of canopy controls, wind conditions, stalls prevention, emergency maneuvers, etc....in other words, no real canopy flight training prior to downsizing. Unfortunately, one one of the major, major shortcomings of way too many 'instructors'..."Ahhhhh, Go for it. You'll be OK."

What about the same issues to get to the 150?



good points Andy.
"Never grow a wishbone, where your backbone ought to be."

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I am an older "new jumper". I have always trusted the advice and guidance of the instructors that worked with me. But in the end, a person has to make the best decision for themselves. One instructor told me something like, “You really need to pay attention to the SIM. It was written with the blood of those that went before us”. I took that advice to heart. For those that think or say, “You (I) should be okay”, when that goes against the SIM, I would say you should back up and rethink things. I don’t agree 100% with everything in there either. But still there are good reasons for what is written there. Small people don’t make a small parachute okay where experience is very limited. That is basically what the SIM says…..not Okay.

The fun for me in skydiving is to be able to skydive tomorrow, and next week, and next month,………. Take a bigger chance, get hurt, and see if it is fun wishing you were jumping instead of waiting to get better. A friend of mine downsized, got hurt, and plans to upsize after recovery. How much fun would it be to just skip all of that and keep jumping? I expect to make my share of mistakes. But I try to keep the deck stacked in my favor.
Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

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I am an older "new jumper". But I try to keep the deck stacked in my favor.



I do like your thinking...and i believe you've addressed some of my questions at some point, dthames.

For me, it's all about keeping that deck stacked in my favor also so I can jump another day.
I don't mind cruising in my 210 "cadillac" WL at a dismal 0.7,,,though i do have to watch the winds more and had to make the decision to postpone a jump because of winds.
For me, swooping looks cool as heck, but it doesn't interest me. Would i want that "sweet spot" 150 at 1.07 WL? Sure, but i'm in no rush to get there. I gotta think i'm in the sport for the long run...just like the Air Trash Crew :)

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Is jumping out of a plane so unexciting that you need to shave your margins even more on the canopy ride...at 30 jumps? You realize people break everything from ankles to spines on a very regular basis doing this and poor canopy choices are almost always to blame, yeah?

Despite it's popularity, riding a sheet of nylon down from a few thousands of feet is just as crazy and unpredictable as it sounds. The only way it can be done anywhere close to safely is with great caution and foresight and even then there are no guarantees, outside of the fact that the more fabric you have over your head when when shit happens, the better chance you have of walking away.

Set the tone for your skydiving career like you understand what the fuck you are actually doing or you will get reminded in of it in a very unpleasant way.

Don't be a downsizing sheep. And question everything your instructor tells you. A few thousand jumps only proves good luck, not good judgement.

I have some friends that would tell you the same, if they were still here.

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No worries, all good. The fact that I'm posting here is proof enough I don't need another beer, lol. The following is not directed at you, just in general.

I'm pretty much alone on this one but I think the concept of a downsizing "progression" is a terrible trend in the sport. For the few people who bang out 1000 jumps a year, sure, if you understand the risk go for it. But the majority of jumpers, the weekend warriors, they don't need to be contemplating a downsize at all times. Nothing is wrong with flying 1:1 no matter how many jumps you have. Not every pilot tries to transition to a Pitts at 200 hours and do low level aerobatics in the pattern every Saturday, thank god. Unfortunately, Velos aren't as expensive as Pitts are.

What is so wrong with flying a reasonable wing that doesn't require razor sharp reactions and perfect judgement every landing? I like a wing I can land with a hangover. I like to relax under canopy and take in the view and know that i have a reasonable chance or living if I drop a toggle or do something stupid, as I sometimes do, in the air and on the ground. Everyone needs to stop saying "listen to your instructor" as well, like they know some shit that no one else does. When you ass is on the line, think twice about what anyone tells you, especially skydiving instructors :)

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No worries, all good. The fact that I'm posting here is proof enough I don't need another beer, lol. The following is not directed at you, just in general.

For the few people who bang out 1000 jumps a year, sure, if you understand the risk go for it. But the majority of jumpers, the weekend warriors, they don't need to be contemplating a downsize at all times.

What is so wrong with flying a reasonable wing that doesn't require razor sharp reactions and perfect judgement every landing? I like a wing I can land with a hangover. I like to relax under canopy and take in the view and know that i have a reasonable chance or living if I drop a toggle or do something stupid, as I sometimes do, in the air and on the ground. Everyone needs to stop saying "listen to your instructor" as well, like they know some shit that no one else does. When you ass is on the line, think twice about what anyone tells you, especially skydiving instructors :)



I'm not a weekend warrior..heck, i'm a monthy warrior at best. That's why i dont mind flying a WL of 0.7 :)

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Yes I do weigh nothing. I weigh 130 Exit weight and im on a student 170. Its flying me. Very choppy feeling with winds. I got 7 jumps in this weekend and got my A license. I will downsize when appropriate. Thanks for all the help!



Congratulations on the A license!
Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

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Yes I do weigh nothing. I weigh 130 Exit weight and im on a student 170. Its flying me. Very choppy feeling with winds. I got 7 jumps in this weekend and got my A license. I will downsize when appropriate. Thanks for all the help!



congrats on the A! :D!

I'll try once more.

1st - There are some really good skills to be learnt on lightly loaded canopies. Too many people now have no idea how to handle going backwards so don't discount your experience or what you can learn now.

2nd - please tell me you have read, thought about, (discussed with the fiancee?) and UNDERSTOOD that while your wingloading on a 135 will be about 1:1, as soon as you start jumping with other people you will be strapping on a load of lead. You simply can't fly well if you're maxed out trying to keep up with people... It's not a question of skill. It's not possible.

That means your wingloading will probably jump to about 1.2:1 - something not recommended by industry experts for people with less than 200 jumps. Maybe you're exceptional and it's not a problem. Honestly, I don't care. I want t make sure that you UNDERSTAND the decisions you're making.

and finally, you've done a great job of ignoring everything I said about the emergency procedures. Did you actually do what I suggested? Did you address the fact that it took you 7 attempts to perform a maneuver that should be instinctual? Did you talk with your instructors about it and do 700 practice drills over the weekend? Of course not... [:/]

Let me be clear. You said earlier that your fiancee didn't want you reading this because it got you upset.

Too bad. He should be as pissed off about this as I am.

7 attempts for an EP is too much.

It may well kill you.

don't believe me? Ask your instructors. If they don't' agree, find another instructor.

Nobody here wants you to fail. Nobody here wants you to be afraid or upset.
But at the same time, nobody here wants you to get hurt. We remember what it's like to get of student status and personally I'm chuffed for you, but remember, you won't be spoon fed any more. It's up to you to seek out as much information as possible and make your own decisions. You have an opportunity in this forum to ask questions people with tens of thousands of jumps. People who define the best ways to skydive - use it a resource, even if you don't do it publicly.


Stay Safe.

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