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Integrity of USPA Records in Question!

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As far as cancer is concerned......hope you get it.



I guess this shows what type of person you are...
Most other people are more concerned with normal, honest behavior when it comes to official validation of 'records'.
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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If official valaditation of such records are that important to you in the whole grand scheme of things then that may show how small a person you really are, hence the minutia reference.



A skydiver on a skydiving forum who cares about skydiving records? Ok.

A random internet troll who starts stupid arguments and tells his opponents to get cancer? Not ok. But not surprising either. Carry on.
www.WingsuitPhotos.com

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No, I have five vehicles and have no need for anymore. As far as cancer is concerned......hope you get it.



I can lighten your load as they say. This has less to do with a wingsuit record and more to do with the integrity of the process and (possibly) institution. If you can't understand why that *might* be important I don't know what to say.

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All that is being done is to repeatedly point out shortcomings of the USPA's judging system. Where is "base" defined in the rules? As far as I can see, it isn't defined at all.




I can't answer your specific question because I don't spend a lot of time in the SCM...and I've never even digitally overlayed the grid on a jpeg in photoshop or other software. So, I have not seen a definition but really, I don't know.

Here's what I do know;
1.I attended an awesome wingsuit event at Summerfest with a great team and organizers. The jumps were fun and we improved on every one. We had a great time and all indications were that the formation submitted met the USPA requirements for a state record. That's a nice bonus to what was a great event!

2. I've seen no evidence to make me question the honor, integrity or competence of anyone involved in the event, judges or the the USPA competition committee.

3. Putting aside grievances and dealing with each other respectfully, even when you disagree, would be a great way to further our discipline. Not pointed at anyone in particular but this internet commando attack stuff we see in multiple threads is not helping our discipline.

John; Are you coming to Skydive Milwaukee? I arrived early afternooon and the Skyvan is here. The Caravan was flying until the rain started about 3pm today.

Pat

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3. Putting aside grievances and dealing with each other respectfully, even when you disagree, would be a great way to further our discipline. Not pointed at anyone in particular but this interent command attack stuff we see in multiple threads is not helping our discipline.



+1
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I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness...

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If official valaditation of such records are that important to you in the whole grand scheme of things then that may show how small a person you really are, hence the minutia reference.



That's minutiae.

Minutia is singular.

44
B|
SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

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A very simple question to answer would be: was Mike the base you followed?




Jarno,
Yes, PM was the base for all the jumps I was on including the 27-way submitted to USPA. I thought I said that in my earlier post but maybe I was not clear.

Pat

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The guy in row 2 was base according to what the organizers submitted to USPA and what the grid is scaled to. With PM as the base, the grid doesnt fit and its not a record. As nice as the formation may be.

So it seems some creative licence was taken with the 'predetermined base' in order to approve it as a record. Which is what this discussion is about. Not following rules and cheating to get something validated. Sad as it may be....
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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Oh and BTW, if anyone is interested in participating in a prototype WS judge rating program on Sept 15 & 16 at Perris, please let me know. This would be based on the current grid rules of USPA.
Email me at Aerosoftware_AT_MakeItHappen.com for details and required equipment and experience.

.



Thank you for the effort, Jan, but I view this as training people how to arrange deck chairs on a ship heading for an iceberg. There is a fundamental flaw in the current judging protocol that has nothing to do with the way judges interpret it; the reasons have been discussed at length already.



John, I agree that the current rules will be replaced by something better very soon.
But the current rules are on the books and if you want a record recognized by those rules, the judges have to abide by those rules.

On top of all this, there is no official WS judge designation by USPA.
There is no USPA judge rating that uses technical skills to scale two images (the formation & the gird) relative to each other.
This is what I want to teach people about.

In that process, people will realize the deficiencies of the grid method.
They will ask, isn't there another way to do this??.


.
.
Make It Happen
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DiveMaker

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1.I attended an awesome wingsuit event at Summerfest with a great team and organizers. The jumps were fun and we improved on every one. We had a great time and all indications were that the formation submitted met the USPA requirements for a state record. That's a nice bonus to what was a great event!



I agree it was a very very fun event!

See you tomorrow at Sky Knights, Pat!

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Where is "base" defined in the rules? As far as I can see, it isn't defined at all.



From https://wingsuitworldrecord.com/faq/how

There are many mentions of the base in the 'how to' section.
All of them include pointing to the person in front leading (and people in rows further back defined as secondairy etc base), as well as talking about the person who sets the attitude, speed and pace in a flock.

This is not about showing shortcomings in the system. Its about formations being judged according to a system, measured on the base. And suddenly afterward saying the front person wasnt leading, but the person in row two was.

Regardless of where it's defined who has to be the base (again, it CAN be the person in row 2). But its about pre-defining that person. And not changing it after the jump.

You honestly believe Mike was flying IN FRONT of the person leading, and he was not base for that flock? Answer that one question, instead of juggling around the answer with one liners and diffusion.

Its not about defining who the base is via the rules, anyone can be base. We have done formations like these where there was a more complex structure in who flew where.

But the key in ALL formations is, the base has to be selected beforehand. And if you REALLY want to pretend to be a total idiot and act like you dont know who is leading the formation in that photo as a base...than you're as big a liar/cheater as the person who dared submit that formation as a record.



I think you've just pointed out yet another problem with the current rules. (Well, maybe I did). If there's no definition, you can choose anyone, any time.

I'd make it the tallest guy every time.

But what I believe has no bearing on the matter. Rules are rules, and anyone is entitled to use the rules to their own advantage as long as they stay within them.
If the rules leave a definition open to interpretation, well, too bad.

I don't care either way how this turns out, since I was on the previous record 25 way and am a record holder whatever the outcome.

I am surprised that so many people have their panties in a knot about such a miniscule thing.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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In that process, people will realize the deficiencies of the grid method.
They will ask, isn't there another way to do this??.


.



Funny that they should ask this. I have a suggestion....
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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The guy in row 2 was base according to what the organizers submitted to USPA and what the grid is scaled to. With PM as the base, the grid doesnt fit and its not a record. As nice as the formation may be.

So it seems some creative licence was taken with the 'predetermined base' in order to approve it as a record. Which is what this discussion is about. Not following rules and cheating to get something validated. Sad as it may be....




While no-one denies that PM led the formation, does that automatically make him the base? Not according to the the official rules.

Always get problems when people assume things that aren't actually there.

This is starting to look like a personal vendetta against the organizer.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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While no-one denies that PM led the formation, does that automatically make him the base? Not according to the the official rules.



Much of the argument seems to be around what the "base" is, and whether it has to be explicitly defined, and if not, whether you can make up anything you want contrary to common interpretation of the term.

I'm surprised the following hasn't been quoted yet.
USPA SIM 2012 Glossary:

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Base: n. 1. When building a freefall or canopy formation, the initial target individual or group of people to which the others fly.



I think that wingsuit flight still counts as freefall. (Or does someone contest that definition too?)

So, can the organizers show that the guy used as the base for the record claim (in the 2nd row?) was the initial target?

I suppose people could argue that that covers only the INITIAL target, so that as the formation builds, a new base is selected, allowing the base person for the record application to be somewhere other than at the front. So then it wouldn't be impossible to have a record with a 2nd row base, but it can't be something selected based on a photograph afterwards, it has to be the guy everyone was looking for when they dove out of the plane.

Or was there a definition in the wingsuit rules about the base, that supersedes the SIM definition?

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While no-one denies that PM led the formation, does that automatically make him the base? Not according to the the official rules.



Much of the argument seems to be around what the "base" is, and whether it has to be explicitly defined, and if not, whether you can make up anything you want contrary to common interpretation of the term.

I'm surprised the following hasn't been quoted yet.
USPA SIM 2012 Glossary:

Quote

Base: n. 1. When building a freefall or canopy formation, the initial target individual or group of people to which the others fly.



I think that wingsuit flight still counts as freefall. (Or does someone contest that definition too?)

So, can the organizers show that the guy used as the base for the record claim (in the 2nd row?) was the initial target?

I suppose people could argue that that covers only the INITIAL target, so that as the formation builds, a new base is selected, allowing the base person for the record application to be somewhere other than at the front. So then it wouldn't be impossible to have a record with a 2nd row base, but it can't be something selected based on a photograph afterwards, it has to be the guy everyone was looking for when they dove out of the plane.

Or was there a definition in the wingsuit rules about the base, that supersedes the SIM definition?



To be specific (like Comp Committee), the SIM isn't the SCM.

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While no-one denies that PM led the formation, does that automatically make him the base? Not according to the the official rules.



Much of the argument seems to be around what the "base" is, and whether it has to be explicitly defined, and if not, whether you can make up anything you want contrary to common interpretation of the term.

I'm surprised the following hasn't been quoted yet.
USPA SIM 2012 Glossary:

Quote

Base: n. 1. When building a freefall or canopy formation, the initial target individual or group of people to which the others fly.



I think that wingsuit flight still counts as freefall. (Or does someone contest that definition too?)

So, can the organizers show that the guy used as the base for the record claim (in the 2nd row?) was the initial target?

I suppose people could argue that that covers only the INITIAL target, so that as the formation builds, a new base is selected, allowing the base person for the record application to be somewhere other than at the front. So then it wouldn't be impossible to have a record with a 2nd row base, but it can't be something selected based on a photograph afterwards, it has to be the guy everyone was looking for when they dove out of the plane. ?


But it could be the rear float, who exits first in a WS load, and s/he wouldn't necessarily (or even ordinarily) be at the front of the formation.:)
"Leader" is not necessarily "base".:)
Not having a good definition is a bummer.:|
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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To be specific (like Comp Committee), the SIM isn't the SCM.



So there is or is not an acceptable definition of base in the SCM? I haven't seen anything quoted in this thread, although the implication is that there is no definition.

If not, then it isn't of much practical use to say that one document does not equal another document.

You appear to imply that if the SCM has a different definition than the SIM, for competition & records in a specific discipline, then that definition will apply to that more specific case. Makes sense to me.

But if that definition doesn't exist, wouldn't the general definition provided by the same organization, USPA, apply instead?

I'll probably bow out of this argument to let others with more experience debate it all. Plus, I can't even find a wingsuit SCM among all the other disciplines' SCM's on the USPA site...

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But it could be the rear float, who exits first in a WS load, and s/he wouldn't necessarily (or even ordinarily) be at the front of the formation.:)



So on wingsuit big ways they actually try to formate on the rear float who exits first??

The "initial target" doesn't have to be the first off the plane -- in RW, floaters exit before the base, and expect to see that target soon.

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But it could be the rear float, who exits first in a WS load, and s/he wouldn't necessarily (or even ordinarily) be at the front of the formation.:)



So on wingsuit big ways they actually try to formate on the rear float who exits first??

The "initial target" doesn't have to be the first off the plane -- in RW, floaters exit before the base, and expect to see that target soon.


Isn't it a bummer when you don't have a precise definition. Then your interpretation can be as wrong as anyone else's.;)
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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