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BrianSGermain

Exit Order Safety Article

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I don't know how to work a slide rule, hence my dropping my major as a mechanical engineer one semester into college...



When was the last time you looked at a SIM?
Check it out.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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The reason we're getting into all that stuff is that people keep denying the simple stuff, want to know "why?" and keep spouting this "45 degrees" BS. ;):P



...surprising who some of that comes from too...nah.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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Good god this is confusing. I'm always hearing people say different things about exit order. In the beginning of summer my dropzone was doing freeflyers and large groups first, and then one day out of nowhere they switched and were making me (noob, solo, belly) exit first. I just listen to the majority in the plane, but I'd really like to learn more about this.



Please get away from depending on others. Take charge of your learning so you can make intelligent decisions for yourself. You wouldn't believe the number of people who have been hurt by letting ignorance lead them astray.

-Read the SIM.
-Check out Kallend's page:

[url]http://mypages.iit.edu/~kallend/skydive/
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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I don't know how to work a slide rule, hence my dropping my major as a mechanical engineer one semester into college...



When was the last time you looked at a SIM?
Check it out.



I have the current SIM...but don't see what that has to do with my choice of major in college.

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3. Horizontal drift

a. Novice freeflyers sometimes drift laterally in freefall.

(1) An experienced coach can correct the problem.

(2) On solo jumps, freeflyers should practice movement perpendicular to the line of flight (90 degrees to jump run heading).

(3) Separation from other groups can be enhanced by tracking perpendicular to the line of flight at a routine breakoff altitude.

b. Experienced freeflyers must also be aware of lateral movement when coaching novices or performing dives involving horizontal movement.

c. All skydivers on loads mixing freeflyers and traditional formation skydiving must consider the overall effect of the wind on their drift during freefall.

d. As a general rule, faster-falling groups should leave after slower-falling groups particularly when jump run is flown against a strong headwind.

4. Faster-falling groups should delay canopy flight downwind and remain in position to allow jumpers who exited before them, but who fell slower, to deploy and then turn downwind also.

:)
The problem with the sim is that it literally throws you to the wolves in chapters prior to section six. By this I mean most exit order refrences are left to the reader to seek out others...

I was going to post my collection of "Exit Order" Signs and pictures, and also ask you the reader for your pictures as well, the one picture I want was the one from Elsinore, by the flight line,....

Don't get me wrong I love a good wag BTW, but on the other hand no one, and I mean no one has yet to explain the effects of inertia, on a mass in a horizontial direction when the only force applied is the relative wind horizontial component, when the only delta is the delta between a prone position V an upright position??? The bottom line is the diffence in position is not very big, if someone wants to show me their surface area calculations, I'm all ears...Keep in mind my whole argument is one of orders of magnitude, the variability of orders of magnitude specifically of the jumpers in freefall is huge compared with the difference in body position...

Thanks to some of you for pointing out the effort many have extended in illustratiing their points, BUT at what cost???....


The confusion generated hasen't done anything for safety. If on the other hand everyone could reach some sort of consensus, and expend your energy in this direction then this outcome may reach more people, and this is a numbers issue....

At present this issue is handled every day by others at every dropzone everywhere, people are crying out for some sort of simple huristic, which may or may not exsist considering all of the variables...

The bottom line is, once again, the confusion generated is causing a multitude of students and the majority of experienced skydiveers to dismiss everyones great points and hard earned wisdom! Way too many skydivers are content with a simple chart or leaving it up to the individuals that appear to have some sort of knowlege in this area...

In other words, and take this litterally as well as figurativly:

Whay too many are jumping out the door without any understanding of exit order because the whole subject just confusis them!!!
It's a whole lot easier to just follow the leader....


ALL of your wonderfull explanations only serve to generate more confusion, not a solution, not greater understanding, and I know that that is the last thing you are trying to do!!! (How fucking ironic is that???)>:(

If all of this energy and work over the years was somehow directed at providing a better explanation rather than this derisive fighting, I can only imagine a better outcome than what exsists today!

On the other hand for the (RELATIVELY) small number of you that have struggled with this issue and who have a better grasp of the variables and issues perhaps there is great learning in just understanding what you have to say,...


But it all goes out the window when some dichhead says "Get off the plane," we have all seen this way too often...:ph34r:
But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

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You are making it tons more complicated than it needs to be. The more you complicate it, the more confusion and the fewer people who will listen and learn.

Nobody needs to have an advanced math degree to do this.

Add, subtract, average, divide, multiply, factor analysis.


Simplicity:
Into the wind

Exit separation = time it takes plane to fly over the ground a specific distance.

Belly first.

No prob.

Special case:
Winds at opening opposite jump run winds.
Can you simplify that calculation? I have pre-licensed students who can.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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I don't know how to work a slide rule, hence my dropping my major as a mechanical engineer one semester into college...



When was the last time you looked at a SIM?
Check it out.



I have the current SIM...but don't see what that has to do with my choice of major in college.



Nothing in the book requires a slide rule or a calculator...assuming you passed 6th grade.

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I see and have experienced issues with people in our and other DZ's that get overloaded with too much created complexity while "in the moment"....


That's because they don't know what they are doing well enough. Tell them to study and practice, practice, practice more.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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Tim: why don't you use the guidelines posted in the planes at SDAZ then?

They are based on those "models" and the chart Lou posted up on page 1, only simplified.


Models are exactly that, tools to explain or illustrate behavior and concepts that can not be readily observed full scale real time for any number of reasons. For instance, we use electricity based upon a model,one that seems to work and has been supported by experience. But it is a model, have you ever seen an electron?
Remy, I guess what I'm saying...is I see and have experienced issues with people in our and other DZ's that get overloaded with too much created complexity while "in the moment"...and this isn't just isolated to skydiving. I think sometimes we try to over analyze things and create a workflow that essentially overwhelms people when things start happening fast. I think posting simple and easy to apply guidelines in aircraft is a great thing...but when we armchair this stuff with physics equations, it makes my eyes cross. I don't know how to work a slide rule, hence my dropping my major as a mechanical engineer one semester into college...


The whole in the moment issue is why I as a novice really need to plan my jumps ahead of time and change that plan with a damn good reason and with input from my instructors. I understand that everything can change, but too many errors are explained with the phrase,"it seemed like a good idea at the time". Plan,Brief,Execute, will be my mantra as I progress.
As a side note, when I took college Stats, our professor told us that anyone who used the terms prove or proof in relation to what statistics delivered would instantly fail the class. His point was that Statistics give probabilities and an estimate of how reliable those probabilities are given the quantity and quality of the data.
Please forgive a newbie for jumping into a subject that has drawn so much heat and light, but procedures and safety are integral to my daily work as are models.

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Plan,Brief,Execute, will be my mantra as I progress.



^^^^+10
You got it. Now keep it and spread that attitude to others, eh?
:)

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As a side note, ...Statistics give probabilities and an estimate of how reliable those probabilities are given the quantity and quality of the data.


Do you notice how so many offer up 'proof" on even less evidence than that?
:D:D
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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This is a loaded question, because untill yo have actuall data...YOUR all just making a wag!!!



YOU'RE



I didn't write that. You quoted the wrong person. Mi gramer an spelin ar egselant.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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I'm sticking with BG's concept of using your eyes, brain, and experience


Time between groups has been proven to work, over and over again.



Yes, time between groups...absolutely. I am agreeing with this completely...it's when we start expecting people to apply math equations in the door while a plane load of people are shouting Go, Go, Go is when things unravel...I just like to keep it simple, and count out a good delay. And yes, much longer when ground speed is slow...



No-one expects anyone to solve equations at the door. STRAWMAN.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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