What legal liability does an organizer have?

[mirage62 0]

What legal liability does an organizer have?

Was reading in the incident forums about an accident in Sidney. The basic if I have it right (I haven’t read the entire thread) was that someone with a very low skill level got on a jump and got killed. The organizer may face legal issues.

Got me wondering. I’ve never heard of an organizer being sued here. Having organizer state and local records I don’t take compensation other than cost – such as hotel, pack jobs… no payment. I lose money on every event I do and I can prove it.

But these are state and local records so obviously I’m looking for the talent to get it done. What about just a day organizing at the dz? At best I get a free slot.

I enjoy the little amount of organizing I do, and I relax a bit because I know anyone can sue anyone for something in America but any idea’s just how much liability we are actually talking about?

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[DSE 3]

I'd wager that it's next to none. A good lawyer and a smart skydiver might be able to push a suit against a bad lawyer, but it's likely a crap shoot.

Real world scenario, an organizer promised a group doing an experimental jump, that all the people who were part of the jump had a minimum of 100 jumps in the discipline, and had 'personally checked everyone out."

Second jump of the project, a jumper was stuck hard enough in the back of the head to tear the cochlea, crack a helmet, knock off the camera, etc. The jumper is now legally deaf in one ear.
It later came out that the person causing the accident had 30 jumps, no coaching/training beyond his FFC, and had probably smoked up that morning. The injured jumper lost their career, retirement, and health benefits as a result of the accident.
Who is responsible? The organizer or the person causing the injury?

A good lawyer can argue that the waiver only holds the DZ and employees harmless, but it likely won't cover an organizer not employed by the DZ. I'll ask Robert Feldman's opinion, and will report his response.

[mirage62 0]

I'd appreciate whatever you could find out.

The part that bugs me is that just to defend can cost a LOT. Which is how the system is rigged. There may not be a good case but the "bad" lawyer can file and try to settle for very little money to force money to be spent.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[wayneflorida 0]

The way I read the Sidney story, some of the jumpers did not have the required Australian ratings/licenses to be jumping with that size of group and the organizer knew that fact but still let them on the jump.

[BillyVance 34]

I seem to recall a licensed jumper suing another licensed jumper for debilitating injuries caused on a jump. It's been a long time and I wouldn't know what search words to find it with. Might have happened up north near Canada or in Canada itself.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[grimmie 173]

Rob Laidlaw was sued and lost to Gerry Dyk, his team mate. IIRC

[strife 0]

So how about in the scenario where the jumper wasn't "qualified" for the jump as has been described in the Sydney incident where the paper has said that disciplinary action has been taken by the federation.

Australia though is generally less litigious

[BillyVance 34]

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Rob Laidlaw was sued and lost to Gerry Dyk, his team mate. IIRC

Dyk? What a dick...

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[airtwardo 6]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izNs3zwyuks


Looks like sweetcheeks here sued the DZ for poor packin'!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[BillyVance 34]

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izNs3zwyuks


Looks like sweetcheeks here sued the DZ for poor packin'!

What the hell kind of gear are they training students on over there?!?

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[airtwardo 6]

green & white!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[DSE 3]

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I'd appreciate whatever you could find out.

The part that bugs me is that just to defend can cost a LOT. Which is how the system is rigged. There may not be a good case but the "bad" lawyer can file and try to settle for very little money to force money to be spent.

Mr. Feldman used the above scenario, as well as the general commentary on the Sydney incident to point out multiple points where the argument is valid that organizers may be found responsible for incidents that occur during say...bigways.

[Andy9o8 0]

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I'd appreciate whatever you could find out.

The part that bugs me is that just to defend can cost a LOT. Which is how the system is rigged. There may not be a good case but the "bad" lawyer can file and try to settle for very little money to force money to be spent.

Mr. Feldman used the above scenario, as well as the general commentary on the Sydney incident to point out multiple points where the argument is valid that organizers may be found responsible for incidents that occur during say...bigways.

By that standard, I suppose I'd worry whether anyone who does any informal organizing w/o acting as an agent of the DZ might not be personally protected by the waiver. Like, for example, if you were to visit some other DZ and just informally organize a wingsuit jump on which someone has an incident. Might depend on how the waiver's worded, or there might be other factors aside from that. I'm not really sure where this comes down, but it's something I guess we have to think about. Unfortunately.

[Skydivesg 6]

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By that standard, I suppose I'd worry whether anyone who does any informal organizing w/o acting as an agent of the DZ might not be personally protected by the waiver. Like, for example, if you were to visit some other DZ and just informally organize a wingsuit jump on which someone has an incident. Might depend on how the waiver's worded, or there might be other factors aside from that. I'm not really sure where this comes down, but it's something I guess we have to think about. Unfortunately.

I can't comment about informal LOs however, I load organize for a number of events and boogies around the nation. I just read the waiver for one of the largest DZs in the Midwest and it clearly lists load organizers along with owners, managers, BOD, officers etc. etc. [even volunteers are listed].

I've had several conversations with the attorney who wrote and updates this waiver. He told me that most people who attempt to bring suite never get past the first interview after the apposing attorney reads the notarized waiver.

He also stated that he often gets calls from the other attorney who refused to take the case, complimenting him on such a thorough and well written document. Yes, it has been tested in court and was upheld.

I have a copy of the document and am happy to know LOs are specifically listed in such an awesome waiver.

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

.

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

[Andy9o8 0]

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By that standard, I suppose I'd worry whether anyone who does any informal organizing w/o acting as an agent of the DZ might not be personally protected by the waiver. Like, for example, if you were to visit some other DZ and just informally organize a wingsuit jump on which someone has an incident. Might depend on how the waiver's worded, or there might be other factors aside from that. I'm not really sure where this comes down, but it's something I guess we have to think about. Unfortunately.

I can't comment about informal LOs however, I load organize for a number of events and boogies around the nation. I just read the waiver for one of the largest DZs in the Midwest and it clearly lists load organizers along with owners, managers, BOD, officers etc. etc. [even volunteers are listed].

I've had several conversations with the attorney who wrote and updates this waiver. He told me that most people who attempt to bring suite never get past the first interview after the apposing attorney reads the notarized waiver.

He also stated that he often gets calls from the other attorney who refused to take the case, complimenting him on such a thorough and well written document. Yes, it has been tested in court and was upheld.

I have a copy of the document and am happy to know LOs are specifically listed in such an awesome waiver.

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

I, too, have drafted or revised waivers for DZ clients to be as broadly protective as my warped imagination can fathom. But nothing is 100%; although I won't say more on that for obvious reasons. All I'm saying is it remains an open issue for consideration. But before I'd LO at a DZ, any DZ, I'd want the DZ's waiver to cover me.


Be the lawyer you fear the other guy will be.

[michaelmullins 77]

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What legal liability does an organizer have?

Was reading in the incident forums about an accident in Sidney. The basic if I have it right (I haven’t read the entire thread) was that someone with a very low skill level got on a jump and got killed. The organizer may face legal issues.

Got me wondering. I’ve never heard of an organizer being sued here. Having organizer state and local records I don’t take compensation other than cost – such as hotel, pack jobs… no payment. I lose money on every event I do and I can prove it.

But these are state and local records so obviously I’m looking for the talent to get it done. What about just a day organizing at the dz? At best I get a free slot.

I enjoy the little amount of organizing I do, and I relax a bit because I know anyone can sue anyone for something in America but any idea’s just how much liability we are actually talking about?

The organizer will have zero liability if he has zero assets. The more assets he has, the more likely he will be sued. The plaintiff's lawyer will always go after the deep pockets, waivers mean little as they will always claim gross negligence and force you into a settlement to avoid a very costly trial. Judges nowadays are reluctant to not give the decision to the jury. Lawyers know that and that is what drives the settlement. If you have money and do not wish to be sued, stay out of the money end of skydiving. Just to get released from a lawsuit with no merit will cost you many thousands of dollars.

[gjhdiver 0]

As someone who organized professionally all over the world for 25 years, I haven't heard of any other organizer that has been sued for negligence. This is probably more due to the fact that none of us are affluent enough to ensure any degree of meaningful recovery, and anyone who jumps with us has usually signed a waiver to the operation supplying the aircraft.

Having said that though, I have for many years carried personal legal insurance,j ust in case anyone was tempted to try their luck. The mere fact that you have it can be enough to deter a frivolous suit.

However, if you're going to organize at any level, take the proper precautions. The best advice I ever got when I was starting out was this.

Design a skydive and pick the jumpers to do it.

or

Look at the jumpers you have and design a skydive that suits their abilities.

Never mix the two. That's where the problems start.

[Swoopnation 0]

Nada!!! Been an organizer for along time. Actually got sued once at a Cali. dz ... Guy with 45 jumps said i didnt disclose the landing area to him. He landed in a water canal breaking his leg. I was LO on that load and got dragged into it... Was an absolute joke... Nothing came out of it except me missing 3 separate days to meet with his lawyer and the dz's

[mirage62 0]

Thanks for the info guys. I will in the future look to see if the LO's are listed on the dz waiver. Sad that something your not making money on can cost you money just to defend.......

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[airtwardo 6]

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Thanks for the info guys. I will in the future look to see if the LO's are listed on the dz waiver. Sad that something your not making money on can cost you money just to defend.......

It's the world we live in.

Back when I was making a significant amount of my annual income through performing demos I took out a personal liability policy for a million bucks.

The demo insurance coverage is/was divisible by the number of people covered on the policy. In other words say it's a one million dollar policy. That doesn't mean every jumper is covered for 1 million, it's divided equally among the named insured.

If the event organizer wants on the policy, which they usually do since they're paying for it, the 'team' is now covered for 1/2 a million. If you have 5 jumpers, they're only covered for 100K each.

That's not much all things considered.

I was always concerned I would possibly lose everything I have & will have even if 'someone else' makes an error and hurts/kills a spectator or lands on a Lear.

In this sport it only makes sense to CYA when dealing with possible areas of liability you may or may not have any influence on or control over.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[DSE 3]

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Thanks for the info guys. I will in the future look to see if the LO's are listed on the dz waiver. Sad that something your not making money on can cost you money just to defend.......

But what if you _are_ making money on it?

Here's a fictitious scenario;
Organizer putting together a big jump. Org has advisors to help select a participant. One of the advisors has a buddy that doesn't meet the requirements, but the advisor slips him/her in anyway. Org has no knowledge.
Unqualified participant harms someone else in the jump. To add injury, the unqualified participant was found to have been smokin' up before the jump.

Does the org have responsibility? Even though the true fault lies with the advisor?
The DZ waiver won't cover this in any event. A separate waiver is needed.

Mike is right; no one will go after someone who hasn't got anything to go after. It's not worth the expense. But for the guy that has anything....

[mirage62 0]

I've thought about it more this way....the dzo doesn't do the work on the airplane, the pilot is found to be hammered while flying...that results in a direct death or injury. Crash on take off..... I actually can see that being liable and I am a BIG don't sue guy.

Now the pilots has to deal with an egine problem, puts it back on the runway but flips it, provided they were sober I'd pass.

Putting someone on a jump that shouldn't be there is liable to a degree, but who determines WHO should be on a jump is what would go to court - then LO may be forced to defend and that by itself is expensive.

In the end I try to keep the money part far away from me (it's easy in this sport ) but my lawyers tell me that really won't protect me from defending.

Just the way it is.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[jumpwally 0]

Is that Skydive Chicagos Lawyer,,,the ex-judge ?

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083