Skydivers Nearly Collide

[flyhi 24]

As posted on Stupidvideos.com

Hope they know how lucky they are.

http://msnvideo.msn.com/?channelindex=2&from=en-us_msnhpvidmod#/video/1390ab0c-0e6e-640c-aaab-cb196a6eb926

Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics.

[popsjumper 2]

Looks like a couple of low-experience guys.
This is one reason why it's usually not a good idea to let the inexperienced jump together.
I can't think of a time when it IS a good idea.

Really glad they missed each other.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[BigMikeH77 0]

Oh man... That was not cool.

[Andy9o8 0]

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Looks like a couple of low-experience guys.
This is one reason why it's usually not a good idea to let the inexperienced jump together.
I can't think of a time when it IS a good idea..

When it's 1977, you and your bro have 50 jumps apiece, none of the skygods (500+ jumps!) with their hot-shit Stratostars and Foils will jump with you, and you've got nobody to teach you RW but each other.

[popsjumper 2]

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Quote

Looks like a couple of low-experience guys.
This is one reason why it's usually not a good idea to let the inexperienced jump together.
I can't think of a time when it IS a good idea..

When it's 1977, you and your bro have 50 jumps apiece, none of the skygods (500+ jumps!) with their hot-shit Stratostars and Foils will jump with you, and you've got nobody to teach you RW but each other.

...you quite often get yourselves in trouble...sometimes it's recoverable.

Fortunately for me in that time frame I had guys that could dodge me.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

Hi Andy,

A small edit, if I may:

"When it's 1965, you and your bro have 50 jumps apiece, and are two of the most experienced jumpers on the dz."



JerryBaumchen

[Andy9o8 0]

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Hi Andy,

A small edit, if I may:

"When it's 1965, you and your bro have 50 jumps apiece, and are two of the most experienced jumpers on the dz."



JerryBaumchen

'65? 50 jumps of which probably 20 were demos.

[popsjumper 2]

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Hi Andy,

A small edit, if I may:

"When it's 1965, you and your bro have 50 jumps apiece, and are two of the most experienced jumpers on the dz."



JerryBaumchen

In '65, 50 jumps was skygod territory!

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[airtwardo 6]

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Hi Andy,

A small edit, if I may:

"When it's 1965, you and your bro have 50 jumps apiece, and are two of the most experienced jumpers on the dz."



JerryBaumchen

'65? 50 jumps of which probably 20 were demos.

in '65 they were ALL demos!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[airdvr 197]

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Quote

Looks like a couple of low-experience guys.
This is one reason why it's usually not a good idea to let the inexperienced jump together.
I can't think of a time when it IS a good idea..

When it's 1977, you and your bro have 50 jumps apiece, none of the skygods (500+ jumps!) with their hot-shit Stratostars and Foils will jump with you, and you've got nobody to teach you RW but each other.

**This**

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[airtwardo 6]

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Quote

Looks like a couple of low-experience guys.
This is one reason why it's usually not a good idea to let the inexperienced jump together.
I can't think of a time when it IS a good idea..

When it's 1977, you and your bro have 50 jumps apiece, none of the skygods (500+ jumps!) with their hot-shit Stratostars and Foils will jump with you, and you've got nobody to teach you RW but each other.

...when it's 2013 and no one with any experience will jump with you unless you PAY them to!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[CSpenceFLY 1]

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Looks like a couple of low-experience guys.
This is one reason why it's usually not a good idea to let the inexperienced jump together.
I can't think of a time when it IS a good idea.

Really glad they missed each other.

I disagree. When I started jumping,we, the low time new jumpers jumped together all the time. We didn't do stupid shit like try to have 6 low timers freeflying together and the experienced jumpers kept an eye on us and wanted to know what we were planning on doing on our jumps.

This was before the wonderful coaches program came along and everyone started ignoring the new people unless they were paying for their slot.

[darkwing 4]

That is no stupider or luckier than stuff I've seen from some very experienced skydivers, some of whom are dead now.

If they have been trained, and certified to be good enough to jump together it doesn't mean they are invulnerable. I don't think we get to be too critical here. They didn't die. They learned something (I hope), and the viewing public got a video that serves as a lesson.

My perspective may be biased, everyone's is, but it is that of a jumper from the 1970s. Yes, there was plenty of zooming around then, and mostly we didn't die then either.

I have had many amusing conversations with other old farts who see the freefly world as exactly like the RW world in the 60s and 70s.

Hey, guess who is dead, the beginner and the instructor who chased him to impact at z-hills a couple of weeks ago. Who is better off?

Skydiving is fun, risky, fun. I hate the notion that we could or should somehow prevent any possibility of tragedy. I think we have about as many rules as we need. The ones dying in droves these days are the experienced ones anyway.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[airtwardo 6]

My perspective may be biased, everyone's is, but it is that of a jumper from the 1970s. Yes, there was plenty of zooming around then, and mostly we didn't die then either.

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I gotta agree...the only big difference now is - everything is on youtube.

Back in the 70's ya didn't really wanna brag about the close ones!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[jimmytavino 16]

i was in the 4 way base of an RW dive, when a bunch of pals and I attended a skyvan boogie @ United, in Penn. Home of The Herd... anyway it was loooong ago and there was a "lightweight" type , among our group, who favored himself to be quite the "late diver". Well he crashed into me , Hard, from above and behind...... Luckily, I was used to such things, since i had come up , during the "Kamikaze RW " days....

I shook it off, and we rebuilt the 4 way. But the guy wound up waaaay OUT of the dive, and basically, the fun was over with, shortly thereafter..
Upon landing he approached me, and said... "Sorry man,,,, I saw that i was gonna HIT you........ so i just "TUCKED UP,,, into a LITTLE Ball, and closed my EYES " !!! "
hahaha.. no joke...

But i REMEMBERED,,,,, and never again did i step up and volunteer to be in the base when THAT knucklehead was ON the dive.....
This video,, with the dude falling past, all balled up.... JUST reminded me of that occasion....and of the EXACT same visual that i recalled from it...

IF you're gonna skydive WITH others... it helps a Great Deal... to stay in the same general vicinity of one another..... If you can't DO that.....it could be time to re-assess your Mad Skilz !!!!! and maybe shrink Down the size of the group, with which you are playing.....

jmy

[popsjumper 2]

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When I started jumping,we, the low time new jumpers jumped together all the time.....

That's fine...THESE guys had a close call...maybe you never did so OK. The probability of low-time jumpers having problems when jumping together is much higher. Hence, it's not a good idea. FF speeds makes it worse.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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That is no stupider or luckier than stuff I've seen from some very experienced skydivers, some of whom are dead now.

True enough

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I hate the notion that we could or should somehow prevent any possibility of tragedy. I think we have about as many rules as we need.

I'm not sure you really mean that like it sounds. Of course we want to prevent tragedy. And of course we can't prevent all possibilities of it and still practice the sport. I like to think that we should at least try. Maybe in the attempt to try, we come across something that goes a long way towards minimizing. IMO, rules ain't a-gonna do it anyway.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

...and please, let's not go off on "we used to do it so it's OK to do it nowadays"

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Andy9o8 0]

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...and please, let's not go off on "we used to do it so it's OK to do it nowadays"

It's not OK. For the record.

[nigel99 143]

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That is no stupider or luckier than stuff I've seen from some very experienced skydivers, some of whom are dead now.

True enough

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I hate the notion that we could or should somehow prevent any possibility of tragedy. I think we have about as many rules as we need.

I'm not sure you really mean that like it sounds. Of course we want to prevent tragedy. And of course we can't prevent all possibilities of it and still practice the sport. I like to think that we should at least try. Maybe in the attempt to try, we come across something that goes a long way towards minimizing. IMO, rules ain't a-gonna do it anyway.

We've got lots of rules here in Aus, but the problem is human nature. Many people put the minimum effort into learning and purely focus on having fun.

We've got our starcrest which is a requirement for certain dive types and sizes, and it requires you to dock 5th or later on a successful 8 way. I've already joined some of the more experienced jumpers in declining to take part in starcrest jumps where people have not done any RW after the mandatory B license requirements.

I honestly think 4 way should be much more active on your average dz. The problem is that it is sneered at as some sort of second rate jump. I've had RW people at the dz make condescending remarks about 4 way (most of the seasoned RW people at the dz are into bigger ways), and there's the long standing freeflier/flatty feud, that isn't always in jest.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[davelepka 4]

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The probability of low-time jumpers having problems when jumping together is much higher. Hence, it's not a good idea. FF speeds makes it worse.

Yep. This is one reason that I reccomend no more than a 2-way until the jumpers are proficient at basic proximity control in whatever type of flying their doing. The reason being that in a 2 way, it's easy to keep track of all the other jumpers on the jump. If you can maintain eye-contact with the other guy, you can see 'everyone'. You might still have a collision (which sucks) but at least you will see them coming and can brace yourself, or position yourself to take a hit in the best way possible.

As soon as the jumpers in the video left the plane, my first thought was 'where is the other guy'? As soon as you could see him in the frame, I was now wondering where the other guy was.

Moving on from those hazzards, there's another one right in the beginning. When the jumper in the rear float position climbs out, he turns his rig toward the tail of the aircraft, and appears to put it right up against the rear door frame. If you drag your rig across the door frame, or make any sort of contact, it's a great way to knock open pin cover flaps and/or dislodge pins.

The idea is to turn your rig toward the middle of the door. If you are facing outward (checking the spot, maybe?) and you are rear float, you want sit toward the rear of the door, and rotate to your left swinging you rig toward the center of the door. Likewise, if you are front float, you'll want to rotate to your right.

[JeffCa 0]

I think it was from Poynter's Skydiver's Handbook (paraphrased): "When nobody at the DZ will jump with you, form a team with other rejects and practice with them until you're good enough that the others start to notice."

What other way is there, besides paid coaching? We all start somewhere. After just getting re-certified a couple of weeks ago, I was lucky enough to be invited to jump by several more-experienced jumpers who took an interest in me, but I could see not everybody being in that kind of encouraging environment.

"So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

[davelepka 4]

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I think it was from Poynter's Skydiver's Handbook (paraphrased): "When nobody at the DZ will jump with you, form a team with other rejects and practice with them until you're good enough that the others start to notice."

What other way is there, besides paid coaching?

First off, Poynters manual was written a looooong time ago, when there was no freeflying. In general, the seperation and closing speeds involved in smaller RW jumps is faaaar less then in freeflying.

Watch the video, and see how much seperation they get right off the plane. If you could get that far away on your belly, you're probably not good enough to close the gap at anything close to a high rate of speed. In freeflying, the same lack of skill that shot the guy 100 yards away, when redirected just rockets him back toward the group.

What you can do is make better choices than these guys did. With clearly very little control/experience freeflying, why make it a 3-way? Why add the additional 'risk' of an extra jumper who you may/may not be able to keep an eye on? Furthermore, their head down skills are clearly sub-par, so why fly on your head in a group setting? Or why stay on your head when you see how poorly it's going?

Freeflying is a different animal, and one where you can get quite a bit out of solos. Case in point, I know a jumper with 1500+ jumps, coach, TI, fairly good freeflyer but better on his head than in a sit. He did a couple solos last week to work on some sit skills he learned in the tunnel. All by himself, he was able to tune up his skills on a solo. This jumper is 'good' in a sit, and has 100% control over himself in a sit and is more than 'safe'. However, he wanted to work on his body position so he was quicker and more stable taking grips, so he did solos.

So if you're freeflying, there are other considerations. If you're doing RW, start with a 2-way, and see if you and the other guy are compatible. Is the fall rate comfortable, so you can focus on the flying and not just trying to keep up or down?

Once you find a solid 'partner', keep it a 2-way until you can vet another. Don't make it a 3-way, do a dedicated jump 2-way with a new partner to see how things go. If everything is cool, then make it a 3-way because you've tested out some of the vairables. If you find fall rate or other problems with the new partner, make some changes and keep doing 2-ways with them until the jumps go well.

If you think about what I've laid out above, it's not rocket science. If you wanted to be smart and methodical, and gave it some thought, you would probably come to similar conclusions. If you want to stand around the DZ and bitch that none of the experiecned jumpers want to jump with you, and then just do 'whatever' with anyone who's willing to jump with you, you get what you have in the video in the OP.

[JeffCa 0]

With respect and appreciation for your advice Dave, this particular incident is not what I was referring to. I was referring and replying to this comment, which is independent of the type of jump being done:

"Looks like a couple of low-experience guys.
This is one reason why it's usually not a good idea to let the inexperienced jump together.
I can't think of a time when it IS a good idea."

You outlined a scenario in which the inexperienced jump together to test the waters (airs?). The implication of the above comment is that the inexperienced should jump exclusively with the experienced until they themselves become experienced. It's hinting that the inexperienced, after being denied the chance to jump with the experienced (because they suck), should then not be "let" to jump with other inexperienced people, either. So where would that leave us? I'm sure he meant it at least somewhat in jest. Anyway I'm pretty far from freeflying, but I'll recall this when the time comes.

Edit: I guess I should have actually quoted the comment I was replying to in my post, rather than just hit the "reply" button. That would have clarified things. I'll figure out how this forum works eventually. My apologies.

"So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

[popsjumper 2]

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"Looks like a couple of low-experience guys.
This is one reason why it's usually not a good idea to let the inexperienced jump together.
I can't think of a time when it IS a good idea."

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You (Dave) outlined a scenario in which the inexperienced jump together to test the waters (airs?). The implication of the above comment is that the inexperienced should jump exclusively with the experienced until they themselves become experienced.

Note the key word "should". Yes, you are correct in your interpretation of the implication. Does that always happen? No. Is it always feasible? No. Is it preferable for safety's sake? Yes.

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It's hinting that the inexperienced, after being denied the chance to jump with the experienced (because they suck), should then not be "let" to jump with other inexperienced people, either.

Two things here.
1. No, your perception of there being that "hint" is incorrect. There's no either/or here. Solos are good up to a point and as Dave said, otherwise keep it small...the smaller the better until you gain proficiency.

2. It's telling that you would see is as that. I'm picking up from you that the "experienced" guys are reluctant to jump with the youngsters? If that's the case, you need more friendly experienced guys around you.

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So where would that leave us? I'm sure he meant it at least somewhat in jest. Anyway I'm pretty far from freeflying, but I'll recall this when the time

No jest. It's all about jumper safety and if you knew me, or have seen any of my hundreds of safety-related posts, you would know that I never jest bout safety.

It leaves with this:
-Jump with the experienced people in very, very small groups until you can fly with skill and safety and safety risk is low.

- Jump solos until you can at least maintain stability with comfort and control. Your learning curve potential for increase is medium and safety risk is low.

-Jump with less-skilled only when necessary in very very, very small groups (2-way). Your learning curve potential for increase is low and safety risk is high.


BTW,
- Yes, I intended the word "let" for the specific reason that youngsters need attention and guardianship. That's not arguable.

- the philosophy applies to all disciplines, not just freeflying.



.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239