chuckakers 417 #51 May 6, 2014 theforkguyYeah, I probably should have just not said anything and waited for the incident report. Sorry, the news report, since this DZ doesn't file incident reports. I didn't say you shouldn't say anything, and based on the evidence you presented and HQ's decision not to take any action I'd also say the incident report you say is so imminent - isn't. I must admit though, your sour grapes make for some great whine.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theforkguy 0 #52 May 6, 2014 Yeah, that's what they said about the guy who was involved in the accident last Father's day. I wasn't the only one who brought that guy up to the manager. I'm also not the only one who has brought this guy up to the manager. I'm just the only one who put his job, future in skydiving and reputation on the line over it. I don't think the bulk of you understand that I tried keeping this "in the family." I tried many times to do it "the right way." At some point I had to take it a step further. Nobody wanted litigation. Nobody wants another fatality or incident. A lot of people voiced their opinions in small groups but none were willing to take it up a notch, and it was not because they weren't concerned. It's because they didn't want to lose their jobs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #53 May 6, 2014 QuoteYeah, I probably should have just not said anything and waited for the incident report. Sorry, the news report, since this DZ doesn't file incident reports. Is that a fact? I think you have already clearly shown yourself (right on here) to at the very least, want to apply a very "interesting" skewing - if not possibly even downright perverted/twisted perception of, what you would like to represent anyway - and have us believe as being "facts". But are they? Really? To reconcile what you've put out here so far, If we are to believe you entirely, and take just what you have said, on its very own face value, just to be clear: - USPA has already adjudicated the matter (not in your "favor"); - Strong has already adjudicated the matter (again, also not in your "favor"); - The dropzone and its management would rather retain on its staff, actively - someone who (according to you) regularly, knowingly and routinely exposes them to such grievous situations and their potential (myriad) consequences as well. Right? Which dropzone you have been fired from... but while you were there you went along with ...so now (an entire year/season later, after being terminated by this DZ) you come here as what? Some sort of "public service" Good Samaritan whistleblower purveyor of altruistic concern or something, with no personal interest axe to grind - - - and that is what you would -really- like to have everyone believe? I'm sorry, but that all (along with your provided video & pictures which has also not only by us... but the "authorities" too, been summarily dismissed) is just not passing the proverbial stink test. Tell us all how you supposedly factually represent (accuse) this DZ of "not filing" and with whom, any incident reports. Time to be specific, and not specious. Who else is (according to you, if it has been all called to the attention of the USPA, et al) supposedly complicit then, in all these improprieties?coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjumpenfool 2 #54 May 6, 2014 theforkguy Here are some of the drogue shots, as well. They're not even the best examples, which are stashed on my other computer. Hmmm? This might be a good time to post from your "other" computer? Those "other" shots that could strengthen your case would be interesting to see. I would agree with Fast above... this may not be the best way to make friends and succeed in skydiving. In fact, from my seat, I smell sour grapes. So, those other shots.......?Birdshit & Fools Productions "Son, only two things fall from the sky." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
raff 4 #55 May 6, 2014 Have you ever heard the saying "Who you are crashes so loudly overhead that I cannot hear your words."? It is crystal clear that you have a beef with some/all of the DZ staff. You have a crystal-clear agenda. So, even if some portion of what you say is true, you are not to be taken seriously, given your huge unvarnished bias. p.s. You need to learn a little about "relative wind" before posting pictures of what you might consider to be questionable drogue tosses. It is clear that the TM in question is a jerk. Unfortunately, it would appear that you are also.If you leave the plane without a parachute, you will be fine for the rest of your life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Inspired 0 #56 May 6, 2014 theforkguyThe reason I am aware of the outcome is because the student who filed the complaint is my girlfriend's sister. Were you the videographer on this jump? Why would you let your girlfriend's sister jump with him if you were so concerned about his drunkenness and unsafe practices? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matt_f_001 0 #57 May 6, 2014 If that was a groping, then this is a bj... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbvlkBYNyYU (it's safe for work, I promise, it is on youtube). I don't know the other guy but that is the weakest accusation of sexual abuse I have ever seen. I am guessing getting the lower straps also counts as groping, huh? If you whined about a non-event like that at the dz half as much as you are here, then I don't know too many DZOs that would put up with for five minutes. Send me your name and address and I will give you some tissues to wipe up after the cry fest. My name is Matt Frohlich and I don't hide behind silly anonymous internet names. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
file 1 #58 May 6, 2014 Chest strap on some Strong harnesses can get all the way to the neck on opening. It can leave pretty big marks also. Having a feeling that that guy is trying to prevent it... Its not best practice to be in that area with your hands tho. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 723 #59 May 6, 2014 That chest strap also has a tendency to make the "girls" rather uncomfortable. With the right wording, I've never had an issue reaching around right on top of the "girls" and carefully loosened the chest strap to make the student more comfortable. Without groping. But then, I've never had an ass hat vidiot accuse me of anything and everything he could make up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deimian 43 #60 May 6, 2014 While there is no doubt that the OP is a little bit bitter (understandable, he has lost his job), I think some people here are bashing him for no reason. Sure, the way he came to dz.com and started pointing fingers might not be the best. But he has a point: -Best case: The TM does "not recommended practices" and nothing else. Sitflying/rodeo'ing the passenger to "help" the videoman. Holding the passenger so they don't "fall out of the harness". Not recommended practices is putting it mildly. -Worst case: The TM is a jerk and unsafe to jump with. "I'll get drunk and do some skydives, I am not sure in which order", grabbing passengers boobs (sure, you don't get a feeling of it, but it is still taking advantage of your passenger), tossing the drogue in whichever position he is, wrestling the passenger, rodeo'ing the passenger just for the shake of it. Even on the best case, I think the OP did the right thing calling the TM out. Whether he dealt with it in the best way or not is another debate entirely. With this thread what I am seeing is that somebody pointed out some bad practices and got punished twice for it. Once with his job and another one here (ok, maybe this is not a real punishment, but you get the point). This has the potential of making other people to shut up when they see something wrong, just because they will be looked down by the community. I personally don't like that, and I'm pretty surprised to see that some people here think that the OP is somehow the guy to blame and he deserves it. From my point of view, kudos to the OP for having the guts of fighting against what he thought it was wrong. Even if he did it in a completely shitty way. Doing it poorly is better that not doing it. fileChest strap on some Strong harnesses can get all the way to the neck on opening. It can leave pretty big marks also. Having a feeling that that guy is trying to prevent it... I'm not an expert, but with the force on opening I doubt anybody can prevent that from happening single handed. Besides that, as a fellow skydiver, I would appreciate that every one in the sky has his hands up ready to grab the risers in case it is necessary to avoid a canopy that appears out of nowhere during opening. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deimian 43 #61 May 6, 2014 normiss That chest strap also has a tendency to make the "girls" rather uncomfortable. With the right wording, I've never had an issue reaching around right on top of the "girls" and carefully loosened the chest strap to make the student more comfortable. Without groping. Wouldn't you loose the chest strap after opening and not during opening? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
topdocker 0 #62 May 6, 2014 theforkguy Yeah, I probably should have just not said anything and just kept my damn mouth shut since the real experts in this case (the DZO, USPA, the manufacturers) have all said I was blowing this out of proportion. But since I was fired by this DZ, I feel completely justified in saying anything I want. I don't need to sully my reputation since I can hide behind the internet, just other peoples'! FIFYtopJump more, post less! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #63 May 6, 2014 normissI just don't see that. I see a closed fist in the pics, middle of the chest (unless she's from Mars with three boobs), hand on the chest strap...I just don't see a grope. Which makes me think the DZ and USPA saw a lack of clear evidence too. There is no reason for the hand to be anywhere near the front of the students chest on opening. Close hand, open hand, full grope, or totally innocent, it really doesn't matter. Reaching around to hug or contain a student adds zero to the safety factor. You run the risk of them grabbing your arm, and introduce the opportunity of making the student feel uncomfortable about improper behavior. Properly adjust the harness, fly your body. After opening explain very clearly if you need to reach around to loosen a chest strap. Even if there was zero groping going on the TI is an idiot for put himself in a position that it could be viewed as inappropriate, especially in pictures and video product! We are professionals, conduct your jumps in the most professional way possible!"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #64 May 6, 2014 Quote Taking the time to report the incident tells me that the woman felt very strongly that the contact was inappropriate. If you believe the OP entirely... and how he would at least like you to just accept his version of the "facts", that is. Yes, his initial post did indeed portray things that way, didn't they? I see he has now since though, changed his "story" in here now somewhat, from his OP. I wonder why that is? Maybe he realizes that he is about to be "outed" Does he not realize that perhaps once there is an actual official, formal complaint filed - that records of that complaint are subject to not only just full investigation (which yes - DID occur here) but also validation, and verification as well? Oh yeah, Allen... You are not the only one who (as you would like to allude somehow bolsters your position) receives "PM's". Why don't you also now tell everyone here Allen - What the USPA and Strong Enterprises found, when they tried to confirm the ORIGINAL complaint(s) filed with them -in the name/persona of the female tandem passenger - ...who rather instead - it was all actually "authored" by, Allen? Sorry, but any credibility you are trying to assert, was right then and there (as it should be, when such clear misrep if this is also so, is found) was completely SHOT, right from the get-go. You need to either get over it (your termination of employment from this dropzone) & move on... Or take your axe-grinding vendetta now elsewhere. Further spinning a one-sided vendetta... and that is all this really appears to be... Is truly no longer serving your very own personal best interests.coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tigra 0 #65 May 6, 2014 Sure- since we've since learned that the USPA "complaint" was essentially solicited and filed after the fact by the OP's girlfriend's sister only after she was told to look at the video for anything inappropriate. I have to agree that takes away some credibility ......... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #66 May 6, 2014 Worse than that, by at least what seems to be indicated. Girlfriend's sister (woman in the video) didn't even know about the "complaint" itself, that was filed in her name. It was already fully initiated, and "authored" (I am trying to be as "PC" about this as I possibly can) under her name, by party or parties OTHER THAN HER ...but represented to have been her. If you now follow along a little better. But in *ANY* case, no matter how you slice it now - certainly not as well, at all - anything like the "representation" as the OP made in his initial post to start even this thread now made here, either. Quote ..."After receiving a complaint from one of his female passengers concerning the way he touched her..." Apparently, not what happened - or the way it all happened in any way at all. - Puts a whole new and different light on the "credibility" of the OP entirely now, if you ask me.coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craddock 0 #67 May 6, 2014 I really didn't think he had much to begin with myself. But just goes to show you can always go lower But hey I didn't have my licence filled in properly so thankfully he called me out on that. Seams like a real friendly guy That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimjumper 25 #68 May 7, 2014 The point he was trying to make was that with the Strong harnesses, the chest strap is not fixed on the main lift web. It can slide up or down. I have seen TI's grab the chest strap to prevent it sliding all the way up. I don't recommend it myself for obvious reasons but I have seen it done. As far as having your hands on the risers during opening that is an exceptionally bad idea on tandems. A line twist on a tandem has a lot of force and I have seen the skin pulled off fingers and broken fingers from grabbing the risers on a tandem opening and getting a finger or thumb caught as it twists up. If your doing tandems and having canopies open so close that you need to riser turn for avoidance you need to review your aircraft exit and jump run procedures. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #69 May 7, 2014 theforkguyYeah, that's what they said about the guy who was involved in the accident last Father's day. I wasn't the only one who brought that guy up to the manager. I'm also not the only one who has brought this guy up to the manager. I'm just the only one who put his job, future in skydiving and reputation on the line over it. I don't think the bulk of you understand that I tried keeping this "in the family." I tried many times to do it "the right way." At some point I had to take it a step further. Nobody wanted litigation. Nobody wants another fatality or incident. A lot of people voiced their opinions in small groups but none were willing to take it up a notch, and it was not because they weren't concerned. It's because they didn't want to lose their jobs. After reading the complete thread and asking some other sources I have I call “Bull Shit”. The story I am getting is that you were a winey little shit that had trouble doing your job as a video flyer and were let go. I would say to let it go and move on but you will probably create the same problems elsewhere. Now you don’t have to agree with my assessment but you might what to think over your motives. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deimian 43 #70 May 7, 2014 jimjumperThe point he was trying to make was that with the Strong harnesses, the chest strap is not fixed on the main lift web. It can slide up or down. I have seen TI's grab the chest strap to prevent it sliding all the way up. I don't recommend it myself for obvious reasons but I have seen it done. As far as having your hands on the risers during opening that is an exceptionally bad idea on tandems. A line twist on a tandem has a lot of force and I have seen the skin pulled off fingers and broken fingers from grabbing the risers on a tandem opening and getting a finger or thumb caught as it twists up. If your doing tandems and having canopies open so close that you need to riser turn for avoidance you need to review your aircraft exit and jump run procedures. Ok, thank you for the clarification. Now I understand what was meant. I am not familiar with Strong harnesses. Regarding having the hands on the risers: You don't have to have the hands up in the risers, but close to them, or holding them close to the 3 rings. I completely agree that if you have canopies open close you should review the exit procedures. But it takes one mistake to have a problem. Meaning that if you (or anybody else, or something goes wrong for whatever reason) make an exit mistake, it is a good idea to stack the odds on your favor. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theforkguy 0 #71 May 7, 2014 QuoteWhy don't you also now tell everyone here Allen - What the USPA and Strong Enterprises found, when they tried to confirm the ORIGINAL complaint(s) filed with them -in the name/persona of the female tandem passenger - ...who rather instead - it was all actually "authored" by, Allen? Not only is that not true, but the video I posted here is not my girlfriend's sister. Claudia jumped in 2012, my GF's sister in 2013. I do not know what you are saying about who authored what. I had long conversations with both Strong and the USPA under my own name before my Gf's sister got involved (after the DZ manager informed her of the grab, not me.) You say that my evidence is convoluted, where's yours? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theforkguy 0 #72 May 7, 2014 Either way, thanks for all of the feedback. That's why I posted here. The end result was that I got a lot of support and suggestions through PM from several different jumpers, so I know what to do next. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theforkguy 0 #73 May 7, 2014 I wasn't able to get on here yesterday and I've only scanned the posts that went up. I can answer some of them but surely have missed some. TY to the person who pointed out that some of the responses here will undoubtedly cause people to think twice about speaking up when they see something that should be reported. On the incident reporting: [url]http://www.wboc.com/story/22605819/two-injured-in-skydiving-accident-at-laurel-airport[url] Of course the media got it wrong, but it was a canopy collision (attempted CRW initiated at 1,500 feet). As far as the 'non-life threatening injury, I'm afraid that they got that part wrong as well. They kept the severely injured jumper in the ICU for over a week. If you can find the incident report in Parachutist, please point it out to me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theforkguy 0 #74 May 7, 2014 And for some reason the link didn't appear. I tried to make it clickable, but this time I won't. http://www.wboc.com/story/22605819/two-injured-in-skydiving-accident-at-laurel-airport Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianyapxw 0 #75 May 7, 2014 theforkguyAnd for some reason the link didn't appear. I tried to make it clickable, but this time I won't. http://www.wboc.com/story/22605819/two-injured-in-skydiving-accident-at-laurel-airport Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites