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theforkguy

Reckless TM

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DiverMike

Could some moderator put this thread out of it's misery?



Oh hell no. This is very enlightening and is certainly spurring plenty of conversation about our perceptions of safety.

Just because the thread has an obviously contentious atmosphere to it is no reason to kill it. DiverMike, you always have the option of leaving the room if you don't like the conversation, ya know.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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theforkguy

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Regularly scheduled Staff meetings where REAL conversations occur, are the place to deal with such issues...


Not once did we have a staff meeting there. Not once.
When I spoke to the TM himself over FB message and addressed my concerns in the winter of 2013, this was his reply:
"You make many very valid points. Over the course of the winter ive had time to ponder everything you have said. I am aware of my faults and plan to improve. I have already talked to dave about Many things you have brought up. I definately grew up mentally over the winter. the time away gave me some much needed perspective. I also know my mouth gets me into more trouble than anything and I understand how that can ultra frustrating to you. I appreciate the blunt honesty and character you have displayed with this message. "
But he didn't change. Whether you didn't hear me the first few times or just refuse to believe me, I tried like hell to keep it in the family.

My face is in the video I posted as well. I'm the last TM on the exit.
In Z-Hills the issue was not safe or unsafe. The issue was the one got reamed (no pun intended) and lost his rating to some extent while the others were allowed to do the same thing at the same time as the 'violator' and not be spoken to. My argument wasn't safe or unsafe, it was that some people get singled out and others seem to be given a bulletproof status.

Night jumps are a requirement for a D license. I'm not sure I agree that they have anything to do with tandems, but they're a requirement. If you can't do them safely I guess that's supposed to mean something. If you can go around the rules effectively, I guess that says something too.



Great. Now on top of everything else you're publishing private conversations on a public forum. You are rapidly working your way completely out the industry and quite possibly out of the sport as well.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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It took me a while to figure out why you wrote in the vid "now my worst exit ever" and your (the videoguy's) exit seemed normal, and then it clicked.

Dude, you opened a youtube account with the TI's name, called it "Tyler drunkenboy", and you are pretending the TI himself uploaded and edited the vid?

You really are a psycho :S

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chuckakers

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What do you think about his expressing the same argument (and presumably presenting the same evidence) to the DZO, the rig manufacturer, and especially USPA with all three turning his complaint away as unfounded?


It's not what you know, it's who you know. I suspect that's a relevant quote in this sport.



That statement shows your ignorance, your arrogance, or both.

I've been doing this stuff for 3 decades at all levels of the sport and the business and have never seen a pattern of people or companies choosing favorites over safety. In fact I have seen quite the opposite. In case after case I have seen ratings pulled, memberships revoked (individual and group), jumpers kicked off DZ's, etc. because of safety issues.

I'm sure there have been exceptions on a local, personal level but if you think Strong and USPA sided with the TI in this case by playing favorites or siding with a buddy over taking action based on a safety issue you are further out in space than I thought.

Your statement is patently incorrect.

By the way, I'm still waiting for the video you said you would post proving the photos you provided previously were something more than a few bad drogue throws.

Put up or go away. You're way past looking like an ass on this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_fWzikD1yo

That's your damning evidence? Snorefest.

I will trade you your rig for an old bowling ball I have in the closet, though.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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He does seem to toss the drouge when he gets the right side up more often than most. But of course these are cherry picked jumps. It's most likely that he has little faith in the vidiot and feels a strong need to get it out quickly to help out the poorly flying camera man.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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chuckakers

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What do you think about his expressing the same argument (and presumably presenting the same evidence) to the DZO, the rig manufacturer, and especially USPA with all three turning his complaint away as unfounded?


It's not what you know, it's who you know. I suspect that's a relevant quote in this sport.



That statement shows your ignorance, your arrogance, or both.

I've been doing this stuff for 3 decades at all levels of the sport and the business and have never seen a pattern of people or companies choosing favorites over safety. In fact I have seen quite the opposite. In case after case I have seen ratings pulled, memberships revoked (individual and group), jumpers kicked off DZ's, etc. because of safety issues.


We see people get away with shit FAR more than we see them called on it in this sport.
See the recent incident of the swooper hitting a spectator in the picnic area for example... I've only got a decade so it follows you've probably seen 3 times as much as I have...

and staff usually get away with more.

Penalties for misbehaviour / safety violations are the exception, rather than the rule.

I agree with most of your posts, but believe we as a sport are awful at regulating ourselves on a day to day basis.

The rest of the post is spot on. I'd like to see more evidence.
I'd also like to understand the timeline better.

When were the initial discussions with the DZ? When was the complaint made to the USPA and Strong? When was the vidiot fired. etc etc.

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yoink

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Quote

What do you think about his expressing the same argument (and presumably presenting the same evidence) to the DZO, the rig manufacturer, and especially USPA with all three turning his complaint away as unfounded?


It's not what you know, it's who you know. I suspect that's a relevant quote in this sport.


That statement shows your ignorance, your arrogance, or both.

I've been doing this stuff for 3 decades at all levels of the sport and the business and have never seen a pattern of people or companies choosing favorites over safety. In fact I have seen quite the opposite. In case after case I have seen ratings pulled, memberships revoked (individual and group), jumpers kicked off DZ's, etc. because of safety issues.

Now you're being biased because you don't like the OP...

We see people get away with shit FAR more than we see them called on it in this sport.
See the recent incident of the swooper hitting a spectator in the picnic area for example... I've only got a decade so it follows you've probably seen 3 times as much as I have...

and staff usually get away with more.

Penalties for misbehaviour / safety violations are the exception, rather than the rule.

I agree with most of your posts, but believe we as a sport are awful at regulating ourselves on a day to day basis.

The rest of the post is spot on. I'd like to see more evidence.
I'd also like to understand the timeline better.

When were the initial discussions with the DZ? When was the complaint made to the USPA and Strong? When was the vidiot fired. etc etc.

A couple points.

I do not dislike the OP. I don't know the OP, so I don't have any feelings toward him. Any bias I have against him comes only from what I consider his ridiculous position after reviewing the evidence he presented. I think that's a pretty objective way to do things.

Next, I think you and I have had very different experiences. I do know there are places that operate the way you explained, but it doesn't happen in my world. The culture at the drop zones I have spent the bulk of my time on have been contrary to the pattern you cited. Maybe that's because I and others won't tolerate any shit when it comes to safety and we openly condemn unsafe behavior. Peer pressure is very effective but it has to be applied to get a result.

I guess I'm fortunate to have had quite a bit of influence in my area over the years and have always tried to cultivate a culture of safety. I spent years as a staffer, instructor, DZ manager, DZ owner, and now as a load organizer at one of the largest and most professionally operated DZ's in the country. Trust me when I say I have never had a problem calling people out when they bust the safety side of things (especially intentionally) and have generally had the backing of those above me in the chain of command when I do. To say I can and will go off on people when they deserve it would be a monumental understatement and I would probably even be surprised myself at the problems I have saved jumpers from who refrained from a particular behavior simply because they didn't want to be seen getting a face full of me. Sometimes that's the only thing that works. I suggest others become as serious about safety as that too.

I have walked off of drop zones when safety infractions were allowed to go unchecked and encourage others to do the same. When we walk the walk that we talk things change even if only incrementally.

As for the swooper you referred to, that is a problem. The guy is the DZO (not to mention a USPA Director and head of the S&T committee>:() so there isn't anyone at the DZ level to deal with him. According to reports antics like his were (hopefully not "are") commonplace, and that gets back to the culture I was referring to. If customers keep paying to jump and staffers continue to work at a DZ where stupid shit is tolerated they only have themselves to blame when shit goes bad.

USPA will only intervene when there is a clearly established and well documented pattern of BSR/FAR violations, and on occasion they have. However, beyond the most egregious situations they won't and for good reason. They are a membership organization, not skycops. The organization's job is to advocate safe practices and facilitate them through education and technical assistance. None of us would like it if the S&TA become the Safety Nazi.

Safety must be a local endeavor. YOU have more influence than anyone else. If you don't like the way things are happening bring it forward. If you don't like the result, vote with your wallet and your feet and encourage others to follow you - politely.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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jumpergaldmv

Hey, This is DM the GM at Delmarva, call me at the DZ #.
I will give you a time line and all the info you are not getting, For me to type it on this forum would take way too much time. I'm old school and not the fastest on the keyboard.



I will be glad to call but don't take my last post as a slam against Delmarva. My points were about safety in general, not about your DZ in any way.

As I have said in numerous posts here, I believe the OP doesn't have a valid argument. He is full of rants and accusations but shorter than short on substantiated facts.

I'll give you a shout tomorrow.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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diablopilot

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This sport is loaded with big egos and when they get stepped on things get rough.



Pot, meet kettle.



Wow, JP. I've always had more respect for you than that. Coming from you I take that as an unnecessary insult and don't feel it was deserved.

Oh well.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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I'm not in the know about the skydiving business, but as a small business owner, I want to get a comment in.

OP, I'd have fired you too. You don't know when to stop. You are showing no respect for the decisions and judgment of the 3 relevant authorities. You don't respect the decision of the DZO, who was also your boss. You don't respect the decision of the governing body, the USPA. You don't respect the decision of the equipment manufacturer, Strong.

I think you've shown very questionable judgment by bringing it here. I thought you'd have blacked-out the faces in the photos and video of the TM and the manager, but you didn't. The title of the thread, combined with your comments would probably leave yourself open to litigation if it impacted his job in any way, considering that he has already been cleared. In that respect, you're lucky that the potential customers of the DZ and TM are unlikely to be reading this.

So yeah, maybe you're right and this guy could be bad news, but you must have been poisoning the work environment, and wouldn't take no for an answer. This would be grounds for your dismissal.

I don't hate you. I could see myself doing something similar as you did when you spoke up, but you've taken it too far. I just wouldn't want you working for me.

"So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

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JeffCa

I'm not in the know about the skydiving business, but as a small business owner, I want to get a comment in.

OP, I'd have fired you too. You don't know when to stop. You are showing no respect for the decisions and judgment of the 3 relevant authorities. You don't respect the decision of the DZO, who was also your boss. You don't respect the decision of the governing body, the USPA. You don't respect the decision of the equipment manufacturer, Strong.

I think you've shown very questionable judgment by bringing it here. I thought you'd have blacked-out the faces in the photos and video of the TM and the manager, but you didn't. The title of the thread, combined with your comments would probably leave yourself open to litigation if it impacted his job in any way, considering that he has already been cleared. In that respect, you're lucky that the potential customers of the DZ and TM are unlikely to be reading this.

So yeah, maybe you're right and this guy could be bad news, but you must have been poisoning the work environment, and wouldn't take no for an answer. This would be grounds for your dismissal.

I don't hate you. I could see myself doing something similar as you did when you spoke up, but you've taken it too far. I just wouldn't want you working for me.



Well stated. Best post in the thread.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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billvon

>At what point will you ever realize that maybe you're wrong?

While he is going about this the wrong way, I am glad that there are people who are willing to speak up about what they perceive to be safety issues - even if they are attacked and belittled by people who don't want to hear about them. No one is helped by "keeping your damn piehole shut" when you see something you think is unsafe.



While you're entirely right, bringing safety issues to the fore frequently results in ostracism no matter how one goes about it (quietly or loudly).

It really blows when a safety issue is brought up, ignored, and people die in spite of the warning(s).

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chuckakers

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This sport is loaded with big egos and when they get stepped on things get rough.



Pot, meet kettle.


Wow, JP. I've always had more respect for you than that. Coming from you I take that as an unnecessary insult and don't feel it was deserved.


Oh well.

Chuck... I read sarcasm into that post? But, then again, I'm the guy who taught the pot how to be a pot and the kettle how to sit on the fire. :P
Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

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skyjumpenfool

******

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This sport is loaded with big egos and when they get stepped on things get rough.



Pot, meet kettle.



Wow, JP. I've always had more respect for you than that. Coming from you I take that as an unnecessary insult and don't feel it was deserved.


Oh well.

Chuck... I read sarcasm into that post?

Not an ounce.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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When were the initial discussions with the DZ? When was the complaint made to the USPA and Strong? When was the vidiot fired. etc etc.


Early 2012 (June at the latest) The manager saw a video of the grab and told the TM to never do it again or he'd be all done. The reason I don't have an exact date is because it happened verbally, in front of whoever was hanging out in the area. The TM came back with something like "Yeah, I'd like to see that lawsuit make it to court." Sorry, the details aren't firm on that.
March 27, 2013: The day of or after the 2 Icelanders went in at Z-Hills I had a discussion with the TM over e-mail discussing my concerns, told him I'd rather have him hate me in person for the next 20 years than attend his funeral before the end of the next season. You've seen his reply.
March 20, 2014: My report to the USPA.
March 25, 2014: I get fired.
March 26, 2014 : My report to the USPA.
March 30, 2014: Tandem student is called by the DZ and made aware of the potential grabbage.
April 15, 2014: Student files her complaints with the DZ and USPA.

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The culture at the drop zones I have spent the bulk of my time on have been contrary to the pattern you cited. Maybe that's because I and others won't tolerate any shit when it comes to safety and we openly condemn unsafe behavior. Peer pressure is very effective but it has to be applied to get a result.



The anger and frustration that come from bringing up the safety issues only to have them ignored got the best of me for sure. Walking off might be an option for funjumpers and should be for staffers, but that was how I made my living. I made the (bad) choice of trying to stay inside and make changes from there, fruitlessly.
Nobody has commented on the person who was repeatedly brought up to the management by a lot of the staff and funjumpers only to be allowed to jump until he was involved in a serious accident. How many times does someone ned to get on the plane with his chest strap misrouted at your DZ before someone of authority says something to him about it, or perhaps grounds him for a load or two?
Has anyone found the incident report on that?
When this TM is involved in an accident it will make the news. Every person who is sitting on their couch thinking about skydiving someday will likely think twice when they see it on their TV. Skydiving accidents don't just get local coverage, they usually go nationwide. That's bad for everybody.

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theforkguy

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When were the initial discussions with the DZ? When was the complaint made to the USPA and Strong? When was the vidiot fired. etc etc.


Early 2012 (June at the latest) The manager saw a video of the grab and told the TM to never do it again or he'd be all done. The reason I don't have an exact date is because it happened verbally, in front of whoever was hanging out in the area. The TM came back with something like "Yeah, I'd like to see that lawsuit make it to court." Sorry, the details aren't firm on that.
March 27, 2013: The day of or after the 2 Icelanders went in at Z-Hills I had a discussion with the TM over e-mail discussing my concerns, told him I'd rather have him hate me in person for the next 20 years than attend his funeral before the end of the next season. You've seen his reply.
March 20, 2014: My report to the USPA.
March 25, 2014: I get fired.
March 26, 2014 : My report to the USPA.
March 30, 2014: Tandem student is called by the DZ and made aware of the potential grabbage.
April 15, 2014: Student files her complaints with the DZ and USPA.



You're getting started early this morning.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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I was referring to a few of your previous dismissals.
Apparently they didn't care for your work ethics.
Or lack of.

You're flat out wrong about Zhills. It's also a private matter between that person and the management at the dz.

I've known plenty of people that have lost jobs in my life and the factual truth doesn't always come to light. I'm disappointed you don't understand that.

I'm not "quitting", I have nothing to prove, you're the asshat that started this pile of shit with all of this "evidence" that isn't panning out. I'm really surprised how clueless you seem to be.

Do us all a favor, go away quietly and stop trying to get everyone in trouble. Stop being a pissed off little brat.
Take your toys and leave us be.

The stress you will let go off will feel much better than the twisted knickers.

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