Jumper Separation: What is the norm at your DZ?

[Miami 0]

I forget what they were exactly...something in the neighborhood of 75knts, and they didn't decrease much until about a grand. All out of the west, too. And yea, pretty much letting them open and get out of the way...did get about 2/10's of a mile separation as well though.

It seems like the pac has a little less drag than a porter, but it's been a long time since I've jumped a porter so it's kinda hard to remember...

Miami

[sky-pimp 0]

the method BILLVON explained earlyer for seperation is one i was trained ( as well as the 45d angle method/myth).

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>Is there any simple way of determining separation?

Always wait at least 7 seconds. If you are flying into strong upper winds, and you have a slow plane, divide the uppers by 2 and use that number of seconds (i.e. 30 kts = 15 seconds.) If you have a fast plane, divide the uppers by 3 and use that (i.e. 30kts = 10 seconds.)

If you don't like counting, just look out the door at the ground. When the plane has covered 1000 feet (1/5 mile) exit.

If you are following a large group, leave more time.

Always put RW out first with a normal (into the wind) jump run.

can you explain how that compares to your table please .

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YeHaaaaaaaaaaa

[CrazyL 0]

Have been in similar situations in the past. Good going being heads up! Back in the day FF went before RW, 8way Rw broke off, had to be right above me as they tracked by every side of my canopy. eeerie.After I opened, stayed flying into wind directly up the line of flight pretty much sitting still. Learned that upon opening should fly crosswind or downwind and crosswind to clear more airspace also.We all made it, learned and made changes to exit order right away. Since then have been in similar conditions as you were leaving similar separation, worked well.

[CrazyL 0]

I like and have used both methods as you have been taught also. So far so good. I'd still like the seperation isssue to be easily understood and used appropriately. Got alot of jumps and seems i've been using/telling the 45 degree myth and trusting it. Seems to be the most common terms used nowadays regarding seperation at the turbine dz's i jump. I like the idea of a countdown timer at the door. The more i think about it, the more cost effective and bulletproof it becomes. Judging seperation should be easy. Not as scared of the up jumper as i am the oh so excited/ nervous newbies. Being an up jumper i'd like to relay most proper info regarding seperation. That's the main reason for this thread.

[sky-pimp 0]

Larry ,the name rings a bell, think i met you at elsinore in 2003 , i was a wufo then and did my AFF there .
anywas not to get of track

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been chewing over the countdown timer in the door issue ..... i like it , a lot .... has this not been thought of before ????... it seems so simple and hay , it real would not cost a lot ....
your point about oh so exited/nervous newbies ... now that is true i only have a low number of jumps , have always been as safty concious as possible and have see bodys pass me on 2 counts , granted your distance perseption against an open sky is not so accurate but both time i thought 'SHIT THATS CLOSE' ....

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YeHaaaaaaaaaaa

[CrazyL 0]

[re] 'SHIT THATS CLOSE' ....

[LouDiamond 1]

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been chewing over the countdown timer in the door issue ..... i like it , a lot ....

Thats fine and dandy, but you still need a way to determine HOW LONG you need to wait before going. That's where the spread sheet I posted comes into play (or do the rough math in your head like Bill explained) . It would need to be right there next to the timer on the door. Of course this is all dependant on the pilot telling you what the ground speed is on jump run.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[CrazyL 0]

Consistency on jumprun would be nice. The speadsheet/countdown timer/ a/c groundspeed. All these things could add up to a safer margin than there is now. Do you think so?

[LouDiamond 1]

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Consistency on jumprun would be nice.

It is consistant as long as you get the ground speed each time from the pilot when the aircraft is on jump run. The timer in my opinion would be great in a perfect world but you really don't need it ,just people who know how to count. If people can't learn to count normal what makes anyone think they are going to push a button and wait to go?

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[CrazyL 0]

Thanks for helping to understand the pros and cons of such device. Have you ever encountered a jumper that supposedly 'counted' come too close for comfort for you? How many times? Got any suggestions?

[CrazyL 0]

Still no simple solution. That makes this thread a waist of time. Thanks for the chart and ideas on how to create separation between jumpers.

[LouDiamond 1]

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Still no simple solution. That makes this thread a waist of time.

If taping a chart to the side of the aircraft and counting the prescribed amount of time is not simple enough then I doubt we will ever find a solution. FWIW, that very chart is and has been used on several DZs sucessfully and seperation has never been an issue on those DZs.That includes a DZ where a majority of the Jumpers are employed by the USPA and they use it religiously. Bottom line is this method works consistantly when used and it doesn't get any simpler than counting.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[kallend 1,622]

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been chewing over the countdown timer in the door issue ..... i like it , a lot .... has this not been thought of before ????... it seems so simple and hay , it real would not cost a lot ....

www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1979332#1979332

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Yossarian 0]

i dont understand why rw goes before ff, surely free fliers fall much faster and so would start to catch up with rw? i would have thought u drop the fast fallers first to get them out of the way...

[wildcard451 0]

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Still no simple solution. That makes this thread a waist of time.

If taping a chart to the side of the aircraft and counting the prescribed amount of time is not simple enough then I doubt we will ever find a solution. FWIW, that very chart is and has been used on several DZs sucessfully and seperation has never been an issue on those DZs.That includes a DZ where a majority of the Jumpers are employed by the USPA and they use it religiously. Bottom line is this method works consistantly when used and it doesn't get any simpler than counting.

I was about to say. That chart looks mighty familiar. Works well enough for us.

[kallend 1,622]

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i dont understand why rw goes before ff, surely free fliers fall much faster and so would start to catch up with rw? i would have thought u drop the fast fallers first to get them out of the way...

www.omniskore.com/freefall_drift2.html

or for more detail:

www.iit.edu/~kallend/skydive and click on Resources. Download the presentation on exit safety.

Otherwise, search the archives. www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=search_results&search_forum=all&search_string=exit+order&search_type=AND&search_fields=sb&search_time=&search_user_username=&sb=score&mh=25
It's all been explained 1,655 times already.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[speedy 0]

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FWIW, that very chart is and has been used on several DZs sucessfully and seperation has never been an issue on those DZs.

The 45° rule has been used at Perris Valley sucessfully and seperation does not seem to be an issue there either.

I don't mean to say that your chart is crap, just your justificaton for using it. Search the skydiving fatalities web site for freefall collison. You will find that the collisions are between people in the same group, not from different groups.

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[LouDiamond 1]

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The 45° rule has been used at Perris Valley sucessfully and seperation does not seem to be an issue there either.

Not wanting to start yet another thread on this.I will have to disagree with you as there are plenty of posts on the forums showing the problem with the 45 degree rule and seperation between groups;it doesn't work. We have been fortunate that what has mostly occured is near misses and very few actual in air collisions. The 45 degree rule is pure and unequivocal guessing, the chart I refer to is based on math and physics.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[Miami 0]

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The 45 degree rule is pure and unequivocal guessing...

Maybe they have a level and a protractor in the back of the plane for each group to use...

Miami

[billvon 2,391]

>The 45° rule has been used at Perris Valley sucessfully . . . .

I've been jumping at Perris for about 15 years now; made perhaps 2000 jumps there. And I have never talked to anyone who really used the 45 degree rule. Some claim to use it, but when you press them they say "well, I wait until I see there's enough separation, then I go." Which doesn't work either, but is not the same as the 45 degree rule.

A typical conversation in the plane goes like this:

"What are the uppers? Cathy, ask Rob for the uppers."

"He says northwest at 30."

"OK, give us 15 seconds. How many do you have in your group? Five? OK, 15 seconds should be OK."

A typical conversation in the landing area:

"How much time did you give us?"

"15 seconds. I thought that was enough. Was that enough? I can leave more time . . ."

"No, it was just about right; so 15 seconds works."

[NelKel 0]

Larry, sure there is a norm.

Ask a jumper to give you 6 seconds and you get 3.
So you learn to ask for 9 when you really mean 6, then you will probably get 4, ha!

_________________________________________

Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan

[darkwing 4]

At my DZ we have been pretty faithful to the recommendations on Kallend's Excel spreadsheet. It is based on sound principles, is workable, easy to underrstand and teach, and it works.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[kallend 1,622]

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At my DZ we have been pretty faithful to the recommendations on Kallend's Excel spreadsheet. It is based on sound principles, is workable, easy to underrstand and teach, and it works.

But, but... you're a physicist.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[CrazyL 0]

Thanks to all of you who posted since my last post. Just yesterday I met a jumper that had met previously in the landing area when he had under 30 jumps. 1st he reminded me that I yelled at him for lack of separation upon opening. Then he said i did'nt really yell, got the point across nicely. He had exited after my 2 way ff. Like Nelsons posting,ask for 10 get 5. 45 degrees too. He and my 2nd opened facing away from each other very close,hers did a turn, as my 2nd 1st saw him above her and just to the side. Neither realized they had been closer upon opening. He became a better skydiver that day. Would like to know more about the ease of use of the chart.

[LouDiamond 1]

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Would like to know more about the ease of use of the chart.

From post #32 above:

to determine HOW LONG you need to wait before going. That's where the spread sheet I posted comes into play (or do the rough math in your head like Bill explained) . It would need to be right there next to the timer on the door. Of course this is all dependant on the pilot telling you what the ground speed is on jump run.

Be sure to use .2 miles , if further seperation is needed use .3 miles. Again, this only works if you get get the groundspeed from the pilot while on jump run beforehand.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING