Student AADs

[Gary73 8]

A while back I asked about experiences with Student-Mode AAD firings, and found that almost all of them were accidental, either due to spiraling a good main or riding down in the plane. Makes me think that maybe Student Mode is more trouble than it's worth, especially since many students and instructors don't really understand the different firing parameters. So, might it be better to just use Expert Mode and set the firing altitude to 1,000' or higher? (Keep in mind that if you set a Student CYPRES's high-speed firing altitude higher, the low-speed firing altitude goes up also.)

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan

[gowlerk 1,905]

That's what we decided. We use expert M2s and Vigils in Pro mode. For the very reasons you state. The last time I saw a student AAD fire it was an FXC, and unneeded.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[riggerrob 558]

Plenty of schools equip students with Expert Cypres because they are readily available and - comparatively - inexpensive. They believe that students are far more likely to sutvive when wearing Expert Cypres than no AAD.

As an aside, I have packed old-fashioned FXC 12000 AADs into student rigs. I have only seen one miss-fire at 7,000 feet. All the other "miss-fires" were below 3,000 feet. The last few "miss-fires" were definitely below 2,000 feet!

I have also had an FXC8000 fire in my lap. Since clouds prevented us from seeing the dz, we stayed in the plane and our pilot dove through a hole between clouds.
As for the threat of AADs firing in airplanes, the simple solution is telling pilots to descend slowly through 2,000 feet if they still have jumpers onboard. Most tandem AADs fire near 2,000 feet.

[mxk 1]

Gary73

So, might it be better to just use Expert Mode and set the firing altitude to 1,000' or higher?

That's exactly what my DZ did. They got rid of Student CYPRESs a few years ago and increased the firing altitude on Expert CYPRESs by 300 ft.

[Maddingo 21]

I agree, student setting is not cool at all. During my AFF we were instructed not to spiral bellow 500m as we had a case where a jumper had biplane on a 270 wing. They are too sensitive and take a lot of fun out of a skydive.

[DougH 270]

gowlerk

That's what we decided. We use expert M2s and Vigils in Pro mode. For the very reasons you state. The last time I saw a student AAD fire it was an FXC, and unneeded.

How would you defend this in court?

At least here in the US I am fairly confident that a ambulance chaser would bring this up as an example of gross neglect.

They would point out that there are student AAD's available, and that the drop zone purposely used an incorrect piece of equipment that was intended for experienced jumpers.

They would probably even bring in some equally skuzzy ex-jumper or DZO to act an expert witness, who will state that students should have student AAD's.

Maybe less of an issue in Canada?

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[gowlerk 1,905]

Quote

How would you defend this in court?

Well... To begin with I do not base all my decisions around potential lawsuits. But more to your point I would defend it as a trade off between the perfectly correctable spiraling main situation and the possible unknown and less predictable outcome of a two out situation.

That and the fact that there are no regulations or even guidelines on the matter. Just AAD companies doing marketing. These modes have never been tested for best performance in a student situation. They are just names of modes.

I'm aware that waivers can not protect you from negligent behavior. However I believe I could easily make a case that this is not negligence.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[billvon 2,394]

>How would you defend this in court?

That best practices at US DZ's are to use expert cypreses, due to the increase in safety and reduction in false firings.

[Gary73 8]

DougH

How would you defend this in court?

There's a growing feeling that 750 feet is too low for the high-speed firing mode. So much so that all the manufacturers now allow jumpers to bump that up a few hundred feet, and many very experienced jumpers are doing so. Unfortunately if you bump up the high-speed firing altitude on a Student Cypres, it also bumps up the low-speed firing altitude, significantly increasing the probability of a potentially dangerous, unnecessary two-canopy-out scenario for a student or renter. Then there's the issue of a student's ability to safely land a reserve after a 750-foot firing. And the hazard of an in-plane firing. So I'd argue that an Expert Mode set at 1,050 feet is actually safer.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan

[Blis 1]

Maddingo

I agree, student setting is not cool at all. During my AFF we were instructed not to spiral bellow 500m as we had a case where a jumper had biplane on a 270 wing. They are too sensitive and take a lot of fun out of a skydive.

Why on earth would you be spiraling or toggle monkeying a student canopy below 500m? by that height a student should be well on his way to enter to landing pattern at right height...

Also, if cypres firing in a plane is perceived as a big risk then there should be a frank discussion about weather conditions you will be taking your students after which you could refresh you and dropzones pilots about how to land with skydivers in a plane...

[ChrisHoward 8]

Gary73

especially since many students and instructors don't really understand the different firing parameters.

This is not a fault with the equipment. Proper training for both instructors and students can easily solve this particular problem.

Gary73

So, might it be better to just use Expert Mode and set the firing altitude to 1,000' or higher?

Firing altitude is irrelevant, descent speed is the qualifier here. Student Cypres were created to address the issue of students going in with partial malfunctions ie. line overs. So no, an expert Cypres set at 1000ft would not solve this particular problem at all. If that is what you were trying to prevent. If you simply wanted to prevent terminal impacts then Expert would be the choice.
After working with both systems I can honestly say I favour the Expert Cyres (with increased altitude) over the Student model.

[IJskonijn 38]

***That and the fact that there are no regulations or even guidelines on the matter. Just AAD companies doing marketing. These modes have never been tested for best performance in a student situation. They are just names of modes.

Some countries do have requirements for using student AADs. Here in the Netherlands our BSR states that if the manufacturer of an AAD has a Student version, that version must be used for the first 25 jumps.

[DJL 232]

Blis

***I agree, student setting is not cool at all. During my AFF we were instructed not to spiral bellow 500m as we had a case where a jumper had biplane on a 270 wing. They are too sensitive and take a lot of fun out of a skydive.

Why on earth would you be spiraling or toggle monkeying a student canopy below 500m? by that height a student should be well on his way to enter to landing pattern at right height...

Also, if cypres firing in a plane is perceived as a big risk then there should be a frank discussion about weather conditions you will be taking your students after which you could refresh you and dropzones pilots about how to land with skydivers in a plane...

Because they're students and they do the darndest things, sometimes the clouds close in faster than you think, and sometimes coaches and instructors forget.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[riggerrob 558]

Canada has more and more ambulance-chasing lawyers every year and plenty of them are scuzzy! You cannot trust some lawyers any farther than you can spit into a hurricane!
For example, lawyers are still arguing over a plane crash that occurred nine years ago!
Making decisions while trying to avoid law suits is an exercise in futility because lawyers will try to prove guilt based on the most obscure error. OTOH lawyers are deliberately ignorant of any data outside their myopic case.

For example: lawyers were royally embarrassed when I showed them a photo of the crash in Perris Valley during 1992. They were even more embarrassed when I reminded them of bloody lessons that Americans learned back in 1992!
Meanwhile Transport Canada called an expert witness who babbled - at great length - about how he enjoyed writting Canadian Air Regulations.
In the end, the judge reduced 5 weeks of testimony to a sentence, finding a mechanic and the airplane owner/pilot guilty of negligence.

If you want to avoid lawsuits, avoid injuries. If your customer is alive and walking, there is little impetus to launch a lawsuit.

[obelixtim 100]

IJskonijn

***That and the fact that there are no regulations or even guidelines on the matter. Just AAD companies doing marketing. These modes have never been tested for best performance in a student situation. They are just names of modes.

Some countries do have requirements for using student AADs. Here in the Netherlands our BSR states that if the manufacturer of an AAD has a Student version, that version must be used for the first 25 jumps.

And here is an example of whoever wrote the BSR not thinking through all the implications, and painting everyone into a corner.
.
All the BSR needs to state is "an approved AAD". The word "student" is not necessary.

I can see how this happened though, the BSR was probably written before lessons were learnt about possible problems. The BSR could be updated though, and should be.

Like that, it still gives operators discretion as to which they use.

It doesn't pay to set things down in stone, some BSRs need to be written down in such a way that there is some leeway with interpretation. Every word of a BSR needs to be carefully thought through, and when new information comes to light they need to be amended. Change is constant, and rules need to be updated with change.

It then gives the ambulance chasers less rope to hang people with.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[Maddingo 21]

Yes, all well untill you wanna get separation because things, you want to bleed some altitude, student panics, someone borrows a rig etc. I see no major advantage over a normal aad.