Andy9o8 0 #1 May 22, 2005 In another thread I saw someone tell about a time when he was a newbie and clouds kept his jump plane at 1,900 feet, so while the other jumpers got out at 1,900, he decided to ride the plane back down because it was below his personal hard deck of 2,000 feet, but he was worried that doing so would get him labeled as a pussy at his DZ. I think that warrants a new thread about whether students and low-number jumpers should feel free to speak up about safety issues, even if they are "just newbies". (The examples I mention below happened years ago, so that's why this doesn't belong in the Incidents section.) I think that jumper absolutely did the right thing by deciding not to jump below his personal hard deck. Even if you're a student, only you are ultimately responsible for your own safety; but fear of not being "accepted into the group" at the DZ sometimes intimidates newbies into not speaking up about safety issues. Years ago I was at a DZ where there were 2 newbies with about 20 jumps each, not yet "A" qualified (under the S/L progression system) but starting to self-supervise, who were on an 8-jumper load on a DH-4 Beaver. The 2 newbies were each planning to do low solo jumps, but at 1,500 feet the plane had engine problems, so the pilot said he'd give everyone 1 pass at 1,500, and then land. The more experienced jumpers got out at 1,500, but the newbies decided to ride the plane back down, because it was just too low for their experience level. Afterwards the DZO and a couple of up-number jumpers mocked them about "just taking airplane rides", and basically made them feel like shit. Another time at the same DZ I saw the same DZO give a hard time to a newbie freefall student (who started on S/L & had maybe 10 jumps total) who was given a rental rig that wasn't equipped with an RSL or an AAD and asked to exchange it for a student rig that did have them. The DZO gave him the different rig, but made it clear he wasn't happy about it, and started bad-mouthing this newbie around the DZ. All the low-number jumpers at this DZ knew about these incidents, and learned quickly to keep their mouths shut and not "bother" the DZO or experienced jumpers with "dumb questions". Third story, also at this same DZ, a few months later, a FF student who was just starting to self-supervise (had about 25 jumps, also S/L progression), and had a very timid personality (and probably wasn't ready to self-supervise), packed his RSL INTO his main container instead of hooking it onto his reserve handle. He did a solo 30 second delay; and when he dumped, the RSL snared the main bag and caused a hi-speed bag lock. He either froze or lost altitude awareness and didn't cut away; and when his AAD fired, the reserve entangled with the main, didn't inflate, and he went in. If he been supervised by an experienced jumper, or felt comfortable asking an experienced jumper to give his gear a quick look-over before he boarded the plane, that fatality would probably been avoided. (This DZ is no longer in business, I wonder why.) Most experienced jumpers I have seen are just superb toward newbies, but for anyone out there who forgets when they were just starting out and thinks newbies are just a pain in the ass, remember, your attitude may have effects that can last........a lifetime. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #2 May 23, 2005 Good points. We are all sometimes pressured, and it is tough to say no, especially for a newbie. When you see another jumper make a good safety decision offer a quick smile of recognition and perhaps a word of encouragement. Positive feedback rules! .Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #3 May 23, 2005 I'm glad that DZ is no longer in business. I think one of the most important safety issues at any DZ is the attitude towards safety issues of the most experienced jumpers and especially the staff. Newbies shoudl feel comfortable about raising safety issues and asking questions when they are not sure. It's their ass in the harness. It can be "cool" to be safe, if that's the culture of your DZ. If it's not yet, make it that way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #4 May 23, 2005 QuoteIf it's not yet, make it that way. Hmm I have heard that is considered whining at one DZ we know of. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #5 May 23, 2005 As a low-number jumper... You mention these incidents happened "years ago", and I would hope that the average DZ has improved since then. From my own experiences at the two dz's i jump at, I was just flabbergasted that newbies could be treated like you describe. Most especially the bit about not feeling comfortable asking for a gear check!! But if there are still ones like that around, well, then yet another advantage of dz.com is that students can see that what they might have experienced is not normal and that they have other options. As for this Quotehe was worried that doing so would get him labeled as a pussy at his DZ. ...i'd rather be labelled a pussy than bounce, but first prize would be a DZ where the guys would say "you put your safety first - congratulations". I do feel quite strongly about this issue as I had an early experience where i wasn't comfortable with the winds and rode the plane down, and if I had been treated like an idiot that would probably have been the last time I'd've been there. Instead, the JM and the more experienced jumpers were very understanding, and I'm still around. maybe off the topic a bit, but on the story about the 1500' pass - was there a training issue involved that these guys had to "decide" what to do? what i mean is, at my level, we're trained that for aircraft emergencies below 1000' you stay in the plane, between 1000' and 3000' you jump but go straight to silver - iow i would expect that if i stayed in a troubled plane from 1500', i wouldn't be mocked, but i would probably be reprimanded for not following the rules. (edited to add: not judging whether or not they did the right thing staying on the plane, just saying there probably should have been an accepted procedure to be followed)Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Don.Key 0 #6 May 23, 2005 Last time I checked most Skydivers where grown up people and as most of adults know asking questions, doublechecking things and rethinking is mostly something good. Especially when making decisions which are directly linked to injury or even death. If sport in general is full of people who think otherwise, then it is a wrong sport. This was partly a reason why I quit Scuba, I tended to setup my gear very carefuly, check and doublecheck myself and my buddies and refused to accept any rush. But on almost any boat there where "Instructors" or "Hardcores" which where terrorizing everyone with "GOGOGOGOGOGOGO" rush as soon as boat stopped. I ignored it but it slowly got on my nerves. In my short carrier as an aowd I have personally seen several malfunctions because asshole standed there rushing people, including newbies and as a result those divers did not setup / check correctly. I hope very much Skydiving is different from Scuba and rushes + cocky "hardcores" will be an exception. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #7 May 23, 2005 Quote I hope very much Skydiving is different from Scuba and rushes + cocky "hardcores" will be an exception. Quite the opposite, I'd say. Far more hard core jumpers. But while the experienced divers tend to ignore the new people, I've rarely seen anything but positive words from the people in this sport towards the low timers. (At least at the physical DZs) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Don.Key 0 #8 May 23, 2005 QuoteQuote I hope very much Skydiving is different from Scuba and rushes + cocky "hardcores" will be an exception. Quite the opposite, I'd say. Far more hard core jumpers. But while the experienced divers tend to ignore the new people, I've rarely seen anything but positive words from the people in this sport towards the low timers. (At least at the physical DZs) Oh well, if they do not bother anyone but just ignore them, then that is pitty but no serious problem, I rather meant people which actively make other's life miserable. This I am VERY allergic to. I also found out that many of those bullies "melt" if you tell them directly and clearly to cease that shit. Unfortunately most affected just absorb. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tombuch 0 #9 May 23, 2005 Quote maybe off the topic a bit, but on the story about the 1500' pass - was there a training issue involved that these guys had to "decide" what to do? what i mean is, at my level, we're trained that for aircraft emergencies below 1000' you stay in the plane, between 1000' and 3000' you jump but go straight to silver - iow i would expect that if i stayed in a troubled plane from 1500', i wouldn't be mocked, but i would probably be reprimanded for not following the rules. As a student you should always have an instructor on board to help you make those decisions. Once you have a license, you wil be on your own, but there may well be a more experienced jumper willing to help you through the decision. You are correct that in a real aircraft emergency each DZ has specific bail out altitudes with specific responses, and the numbers you mention sound pretty common. However, not all aircraft emergencies are the same. In some cases it may be that an engine is running rough (or a twin engine aircraft lost one engine) and the pilot doesn't want to go all the way to altitude, so he stops the climb at 1,500 and gives jumpers the option of getting out, but will be willing to land with you if you like. In another case, you may be at 4,000 feet and weather moves in, so the pilot gives everybody the option of getting out on the edge of a storm. As an experienced jumper you will need to evaluate the specific situation, and the options that are available, and then make a decision. Part of that evaluation is determining how serious the emergency is and what the pilot is offering, requesting, or demanding that you do. You do not always need to get out. As an experienced jumper with more than 4,500 jumps, I'll almost always jump if given the option, mostly because that's what I'm there to do, and the low ones are very fun. As an instructor I'll evaluate the situation on behalf of my student. In the case of a rough engine at 1,500 feet, or even and engine out, I'll probably look at where we are, and if the airport is nearby, or a big field is available for a forced landing, I may ask the pilot if we can stay with the airplane. That may be as simple as saying "John, I have a student, can we both ride it down with you..." and look for a quick head nod." My decision will be based on his decision and the specific situation. In the case of a storm moving in, I won't get out at any altitude, even if the pilot insists. In that case we need to land the airplane away from the storm. The really big deal situation is a damaged airplane or a pilot struggling with an engine out and not able to listen to me at all. In that case I need to make my best decision, favoring an emergency exit, then just do it. If you have a chance on a rainy day, sit down and talk through some of these issues with your pilot. Simple yes or no decisions that you make as a student become a bit more complicated when you have experience. .Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #10 May 23, 2005 Quote If you have a chance on a rainy day, sit down and talk through some of these issues with your pilot. Simple yes or no decisions that you make as a student become a bit more complicated when you have experience. great perspective and advice - thanks... & the "pilot" chat will be easy as we have 2 instructors that pilot too and there's usually one around on the ground.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 0 #11 May 23, 2005 Orange1 (Chantal), thanks for the question, and thanks Tom and the rest of you for the very useful input. There was no DZ rule violation. The DZ rule at the time was if there's an in-flight aircraft issue, obey the pilot's instructions, whether it be jump immediately, jump on next jump run, ride the plane down, or make your own decision on the next run. In this case, it wasn't a major emergency, it was just low oil pressure, the pilot was comfortable making one more pass at 1,500 & jumpers having the choice to either jump or ride it down. I'm sure if the pilot had told the noobs to get out, they would have jumped, but they were the last ones left on the plane, and he gave them the choice. If they went out on their mains, that's low if they needed a cutaway. If they went out on reserve, that only gave them the "one chance" of the reserve, so they chose what they felt was the safest of the 3 options -- they rode it down. But the real point is, they used their best judgment under the circumstances on how to stay safe, they had a succesful outcome, but they were dumped on by the DZO and a couple of up-timers, basically for not having the "guts" to jump, and that was just wrong Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #12 May 23, 2005 QuoteBut the real point is, they used their best judgment under the circumstances on how to stay safe, they had a succesful outcome, but they were dumped on by the DZO and a couple of up-timers, basically for not having the "guts" to jump, and that was just wrong agree entirely - also wrt my own experience as described above. as a matter of interest, did these guys stick around in the sport or not? I think experienced jumpers sometimes underestimate how important their actions are in keeping a newbie interested in continuing with the sport. It's scary enough as a newbie - to feel both scared and stupid or intimidated would probably be enough to make some people give up, no matter how much they love jumping.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GreenLight 5 #13 May 23, 2005 In my opinion, the "pussies" are the ones that keep their mouths shut about safety issues. A few high number jumpers, (myself included) were permanently banned from a high profile local DZ for bringing up safety issues. The owner/pilot was the main culprit in two of these incidents. When the ousted jumpers tried to gain support of USPA and the other jumpers at the DZ, the USPA said it was not their place to intervene and the other jumpers stayed quiet for fear of being ousted also... This was wrong, always has been wrong and always will be wrong. Since then I lost all respect for everyone invloved at that DZ and the USPA itself. So again I say, the pussies are the ones who keep their mouths shut....Green Light "Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there." "Your statement answered your question." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnMitchell 14 #14 May 23, 2005 QuoteQuoteIf it's not yet, make it that way. Hmm I have heard that is considered whining at one DZ we know of. Drive south, woman, drive south! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Salsa_John 0 #15 May 23, 2005 I am a newbie... I have never been given a hard time for not doing something I was not comfortable with... I have been given a hard time for doing something I was not ready for... I have been praised for not doing something I was not comfortable with... QuoteAnother time at the same DZ I saw the same DZO give a hard time to a newbie freefall student (who started on S/L & had maybe 10 jumps total) who was given a rental rig that wasn't equipped with an RSL or an AAD and asked to exchange it for a student rig that did have them. The DZO gave him the different rig, but made it clear he wasn't happy about it, and started bad-mouthing this newbie around the DZ. All the low-number jumpers at this DZ knew about these incidents, and learned quickly to keep their mouths shut and not "bother" the DZO or experienced jumpers with "dumb questions". I would like to know which DZ this was so I refrain from spending my hard earned $ there. As much as I can being new and and only slightly less ignorant, I will always try to answer questions of low timers and non-jumpers or direct them to an instructor. this was done with me and so I will do it with others... I took over an hour to help a high school kid with his report on parachuting even going as far as unpacking my rig so he could vid it being repacked... "You did what?!?!" MUFF #3722, TDSM #72, Orfun #26, Nachos Rodriguez Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zep 0 #16 May 23, 2005 I think you've had some good answers, From my experience ex AFF students are the most aprehensive at getting out at low altitudes for obvious reasons I would like to reitirate some thing Tom Buch wrote as I feel most "Newbies" do not understand the dangers of storm fronts Quote. In the case of a storm moving in, I won't get out at any altitude, even if the pilot insists. In that case we need to land the airplane away from the storm. end quote. Rapidly building Cumulus nimbas (cumulonimbus) can do you serious damage or kill you Gone fishing Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lawrocket 3 #17 May 23, 2005 Heck, I'm glad I did my jumps at Elsinore. I did find myself unfit to bring up safety issues that I saw. I'd usually just ask questions about things I saw so I'd know how to appropriately react. The people and the staff were receptive and always answered questions. There was only one time I ever really did anything. It was my 17th jump - recurrency. We were on the second run and the door opened. I was sitting on the other side, and I looked out the window to see a plane a few thousand feet below heading right for where we'd be dropping at a 90 degree heading from jump run - on line to intercept in about 45 seconds. I called to the guys in the door to "GET BACK IN THE PLANE!" They went. The second group was approaching the door and Lob, who was sitting across from me, said, "What?" I said, "Air traffic below." My instructor heard, looked out, confirmed it. The other group came back. Lob asked me how many jumps I had while we went around. I told him, "16." He smiled and said, "Great job." What a great jump, too! I read stories like that and thank my stars I learned at a place like Elsinore. I'll admit, it was tough making that call. My instructor and Lob did not seem to mind one bit. Students - if a dz makes you feel inferior for asking questiosn and bringing up safety issues, go find another DZ. Students - don't go offering advice to anyone. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #18 May 23, 2005 A low timer should always feel free to *ASK* if something is OK. If not, find a new DZ. A low timer should not offer advice on how something should be done. If someone says, "Is that a good idea?" Most people who know better will think about it...."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Newbie 0 #19 May 23, 2005 I came off of AFF and asked if my brake line was safe because i landed on about jump number 10 and noticed the finger trap loop and thought it may have frayed while opening. I was told it was fine and i would learn about it on packing. A few jumps later, I saw a pro swooper who was getting out low with his riser covers open on the plane because he was deploying sub terminal, but didn't realise this at the time or even knew what swooping was and asked him if he knew they were not closed. He said yeah, explained why, and thanked me for looking out for him though. I said to a jumper with over 2000 jumps that his chest strap was hanging (although done up) while we were taxiing for take off recently and he looked at me with a "thanks, but i know what i'm doing look". I don't care. If i see something i don't understand, or do understand but not sure if it's safe, i'll always ask to make sure. Lives are at stake, we aren't playing tiddlywinks, and while it all might be fine and dandy, i would rather know in my mind that i and my fellow jumpers are ok. If someone on AFF spots something about my gear, i would rather he spoke up and asked me about it, then sat there and wondered if it was safe. Besides, even if it's perfectly fine, it provides a talking point as to why it's ok, therefore helping education people "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AndyMan 7 #20 May 23, 2005 First, an anecdote. A few monthes ago I was taking part in one of Brian Germain's canopy courses. The course involved a wide range of students. I was at one end of the experience chain, while others had as few as 26 jumps. Most seemed to have had between 100 and 300 jumps. Brian was videoing the landings for discussion. On my landing, I executed an aggresive front riser manuever resulting in a 270 degree turn, putting me in a steep dive and (hopefully), a cool swoop. Brian videod the manuever and showed it to the class. He hit 'pause' at a crucial part of the manuever where it appeared that I was actually above the canopy. Many people in the class quickly started murmering, one person said out loud "that doesn't look safe....!" They thought that since it appeared I was above the canopy, that the canopy was about to collapse. Brian scurried over, picked up a copy of his book The Parachute and its Pilot, held it up, and showed the class that the front cover of his book showed a picture of him in the exact same position. That started a good discussion about the high risk of turns before landing, but it also talked about how jumpers can understand the mechanics of aggresive manuevers, and some day do it - at an appropriate altitude. In reality, I was not over my canopy, nor was Brian in the photo on the cover of the book. In both cases, the jumper being over the canopy was only the perception of people on the ground, simply a perceptual oddity of basic geometry In my example, while the 270 degree turn before landing certainly was dangerous, the orientation of the canopy at the start of the manuever was not. The point here, is that often times newer jumpers have a mistaken idea of what constitutes "safe", and what constitutes "dangerous". Young jumpers should be cautious about being too judgmental about issues they don't understand. Asking questions is good, making a big stink over something they might not understand may not be wise. In the post that started this thread, that does not appear to be going on. Still, something to be wary of. My second point is quite different. Young jumpers are in a very good position to give real criticisms to DZO's for unsafe practices. More experienced jumpers often get tied into keeping their mouthes shut because they work for the DZO, or have strong relationships with people who do. Experienced jumpers often keep their mouths shut for "political" reasons. Students are the livelihood of all Dropzones. They are the largest source of revenue for dropzones. If certain DZ practices are giving students the idea that DZ isn't safe - well, those students hold a lot more power over the DZO than a "fun-jumper". One student who migrates to "other dropzone down the road" represents a much larger cost to the DZO than one fun-jumper who takes the same path. Students hold a lot more sway in a DZO's mind than they get credit for. If a DZO is being disrespectful, that's a great sign that they should find somewhere else to jump. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LuvToFly 0 #21 May 23, 2005 A couple of months ago I was in Deland in a Porter stuffed with 9 guys. The pilot went up and circled a bit but could not find a hole at altitude. He eventually descended to 2,500 feet and paused there so that whoever wanted to get out could jump. Everyone in the plane jumped except me and two other guys. The two other guys were Russian and I don't think they knew what has happening. I did not jump because this is below my normal opening altitude. I could have, but decided to be conservative. I thought I might get some flack but didn't give a crap really. In actuality the folks at the DZ were very supportive about this. What I did see however was some low timers in the plane that jumped because they clearly felt pressured to do so - not wanting to be labeled as a "wimp" etc. You could tell they really didn't want to jump but did anyway (by the way, there were still some clouds around at 2,500 on this day as well) If anything can be learned, it's not to give a crap what other people think or say when it comes to your own personal safety and comfort level. Never feel forced to do anything you are not comfortable with. Come down with the plane if you must. Better to jump another day than to go into a territory that you feel is unsafe - There is absolutely no place for peer or even DZO pressure in this sport. You have charge over your safety. "The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #22 May 23, 2005 QuoteHe eventually descended to 2,500 feet and paused there so that whoever wanted to get out could jump. Everyone in the plane jumped except me and two other guys. There is limit, though. Scenario one (what actually happened) - If this was just a choice to land with a good plane and only concern about conditions or comfort, then good for you. Scenario two (hypothetical to make a point) - But if it had been a refusal to jump during an emergency, then 2500 is 'very' high. If you would have balked during a real emergency, then I encourage you to take some training in order to get comfortable with emergency exits. Hop n pops should be a criteria to graduate. Don't do what you aren't prepared for. But, recognize that this is missing and make a positive decision to get that needed training. A good crowd of "people in authority at the DZ" will encourage you to get preparation. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tbrown 26 #23 May 24, 2005 Andy your story about the bad dropzone from long ago has such an eerie ring to it that I've PM'ed you about it, as I'd rather not make an assumption and start throwing names around. All I'd like to add to this discussion is that after returning to the sport from a 22 year layoff, I'm very happy - so far - to see a MUCH more positive attitude in our sport. A lot of the old macho bullshit has fallen by the wayside and it seems to me that dropzone staff, instructors, and experienced jumpers are much more receptive to safety concerns voiced by newbies. Of course nothing's perfect and we have our share of insufferable head cases who think they're God's gift to freefall, but in general things are a lot better. I hope... On the other hand, newbies don't always have the perspective to see "both sides" of a safety issue. So many have been raised up on AFF that they're scared of jumping or pulling below 4 grand. They don't even grasp the simple fact that it takes ten seconds to fall the first thousand feet, so leaving the plane at 2500 ft gives them the same amount of time (more or less) as a terminal pull at 4 grand. Sometimes newbies need to be told what's good for them, but it needs to be done in a positive and reassuring way. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LuvToFly 0 #24 May 24, 2005 QuoteQuoteHe eventually descended to 2,500 feet and paused there so that whoever wanted to get out could jump. Everyone in the plane jumped except me and two other guys. There is limit, though. Scenario one (what actually happened) - If this was just a choice to land with a good plane and only concern about conditions or comfort, then good for you. Scenario two (hypothetical to make a point) - But if it had been a refusal to jump during an emergency, then 2500 is 'very' high. If you would have balked during a real emergency, then I encourage you to take some training in order to get comfortable with emergency exits. Hop n pops should be a criteria to graduate. Don't do what you aren't prepared for. But, recognize that this is missing and make a positive decision to get that needed training. A good crowd of "people in authority at the DZ" will encourage you to get preparation. Scenario 1, for sure. Could have jumped lower - chose not to. Really a matter of preference. It was just good to know that there was no flack about it - even though would have done the same either way. If was emergency, out the door no problem - "The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 0 #25 May 24, 2005 Another story about the same DZ I mentioned at the beginning of this thread. Take it for what it's worth. This place was a student S/L "mill" before "tandem mills" existed. Back when all their student rigs were cheapos (round military surplus canopies), which don't give the softest landings, they used to teach S/L first jump course students, "We teach the standup landing method...", which translated to: they only taught the students to keep their feet and knees together at landing, but unlike most other DZ's, they never taught them how to do a PLF, or even mentioned it. That's how they taught me. And it worked fine, as long as you were backing up. But if you mis-judged and did a downwind or sideways landing (as students will do...), knowing how to do a PLF would have come in handy. When a jumper friend of mine who knew how to do a PLF advised me that I ought to learn it (I was still a novice), did I ask the guys at the DZ to teach me? Hell no. I got myself a skydiving book, read the chapter on PLF's and practiced jumping off the picnic table in my back yard. (Dad, through the window: "What the hell are you DOING out there??" Me: "Uh....nothing, Dad." Dad, to my mom: "That kid's ready for the funny farm.") Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. 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Amazon 7 #4 May 23, 2005 QuoteIf it's not yet, make it that way. Hmm I have heard that is considered whining at one DZ we know of. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #5 May 23, 2005 As a low-number jumper... You mention these incidents happened "years ago", and I would hope that the average DZ has improved since then. From my own experiences at the two dz's i jump at, I was just flabbergasted that newbies could be treated like you describe. Most especially the bit about not feeling comfortable asking for a gear check!! But if there are still ones like that around, well, then yet another advantage of dz.com is that students can see that what they might have experienced is not normal and that they have other options. As for this Quotehe was worried that doing so would get him labeled as a pussy at his DZ. ...i'd rather be labelled a pussy than bounce, but first prize would be a DZ where the guys would say "you put your safety first - congratulations". I do feel quite strongly about this issue as I had an early experience where i wasn't comfortable with the winds and rode the plane down, and if I had been treated like an idiot that would probably have been the last time I'd've been there. Instead, the JM and the more experienced jumpers were very understanding, and I'm still around. maybe off the topic a bit, but on the story about the 1500' pass - was there a training issue involved that these guys had to "decide" what to do? what i mean is, at my level, we're trained that for aircraft emergencies below 1000' you stay in the plane, between 1000' and 3000' you jump but go straight to silver - iow i would expect that if i stayed in a troubled plane from 1500', i wouldn't be mocked, but i would probably be reprimanded for not following the rules. (edited to add: not judging whether or not they did the right thing staying on the plane, just saying there probably should have been an accepted procedure to be followed)Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Don.Key 0 #6 May 23, 2005 Last time I checked most Skydivers where grown up people and as most of adults know asking questions, doublechecking things and rethinking is mostly something good. Especially when making decisions which are directly linked to injury or even death. If sport in general is full of people who think otherwise, then it is a wrong sport. This was partly a reason why I quit Scuba, I tended to setup my gear very carefuly, check and doublecheck myself and my buddies and refused to accept any rush. But on almost any boat there where "Instructors" or "Hardcores" which where terrorizing everyone with "GOGOGOGOGOGOGO" rush as soon as boat stopped. I ignored it but it slowly got on my nerves. In my short carrier as an aowd I have personally seen several malfunctions because asshole standed there rushing people, including newbies and as a result those divers did not setup / check correctly. I hope very much Skydiving is different from Scuba and rushes + cocky "hardcores" will be an exception. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #7 May 23, 2005 Quote I hope very much Skydiving is different from Scuba and rushes + cocky "hardcores" will be an exception. Quite the opposite, I'd say. Far more hard core jumpers. But while the experienced divers tend to ignore the new people, I've rarely seen anything but positive words from the people in this sport towards the low timers. (At least at the physical DZs) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Don.Key 0 #8 May 23, 2005 QuoteQuote I hope very much Skydiving is different from Scuba and rushes + cocky "hardcores" will be an exception. Quite the opposite, I'd say. Far more hard core jumpers. But while the experienced divers tend to ignore the new people, I've rarely seen anything but positive words from the people in this sport towards the low timers. (At least at the physical DZs) Oh well, if they do not bother anyone but just ignore them, then that is pitty but no serious problem, I rather meant people which actively make other's life miserable. This I am VERY allergic to. I also found out that many of those bullies "melt" if you tell them directly and clearly to cease that shit. Unfortunately most affected just absorb. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #9 May 23, 2005 Quote maybe off the topic a bit, but on the story about the 1500' pass - was there a training issue involved that these guys had to "decide" what to do? what i mean is, at my level, we're trained that for aircraft emergencies below 1000' you stay in the plane, between 1000' and 3000' you jump but go straight to silver - iow i would expect that if i stayed in a troubled plane from 1500', i wouldn't be mocked, but i would probably be reprimanded for not following the rules. As a student you should always have an instructor on board to help you make those decisions. Once you have a license, you wil be on your own, but there may well be a more experienced jumper willing to help you through the decision. You are correct that in a real aircraft emergency each DZ has specific bail out altitudes with specific responses, and the numbers you mention sound pretty common. However, not all aircraft emergencies are the same. In some cases it may be that an engine is running rough (or a twin engine aircraft lost one engine) and the pilot doesn't want to go all the way to altitude, so he stops the climb at 1,500 and gives jumpers the option of getting out, but will be willing to land with you if you like. In another case, you may be at 4,000 feet and weather moves in, so the pilot gives everybody the option of getting out on the edge of a storm. As an experienced jumper you will need to evaluate the specific situation, and the options that are available, and then make a decision. Part of that evaluation is determining how serious the emergency is and what the pilot is offering, requesting, or demanding that you do. You do not always need to get out. As an experienced jumper with more than 4,500 jumps, I'll almost always jump if given the option, mostly because that's what I'm there to do, and the low ones are very fun. As an instructor I'll evaluate the situation on behalf of my student. In the case of a rough engine at 1,500 feet, or even and engine out, I'll probably look at where we are, and if the airport is nearby, or a big field is available for a forced landing, I may ask the pilot if we can stay with the airplane. That may be as simple as saying "John, I have a student, can we both ride it down with you..." and look for a quick head nod." My decision will be based on his decision and the specific situation. In the case of a storm moving in, I won't get out at any altitude, even if the pilot insists. In that case we need to land the airplane away from the storm. The really big deal situation is a damaged airplane or a pilot struggling with an engine out and not able to listen to me at all. In that case I need to make my best decision, favoring an emergency exit, then just do it. If you have a chance on a rainy day, sit down and talk through some of these issues with your pilot. Simple yes or no decisions that you make as a student become a bit more complicated when you have experience. .Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #10 May 23, 2005 Quote If you have a chance on a rainy day, sit down and talk through some of these issues with your pilot. Simple yes or no decisions that you make as a student become a bit more complicated when you have experience. great perspective and advice - thanks... & the "pilot" chat will be easy as we have 2 instructors that pilot too and there's usually one around on the ground.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #11 May 23, 2005 Orange1 (Chantal), thanks for the question, and thanks Tom and the rest of you for the very useful input. There was no DZ rule violation. The DZ rule at the time was if there's an in-flight aircraft issue, obey the pilot's instructions, whether it be jump immediately, jump on next jump run, ride the plane down, or make your own decision on the next run. In this case, it wasn't a major emergency, it was just low oil pressure, the pilot was comfortable making one more pass at 1,500 & jumpers having the choice to either jump or ride it down. I'm sure if the pilot had told the noobs to get out, they would have jumped, but they were the last ones left on the plane, and he gave them the choice. If they went out on their mains, that's low if they needed a cutaway. If they went out on reserve, that only gave them the "one chance" of the reserve, so they chose what they felt was the safest of the 3 options -- they rode it down. But the real point is, they used their best judgment under the circumstances on how to stay safe, they had a succesful outcome, but they were dumped on by the DZO and a couple of up-timers, basically for not having the "guts" to jump, and that was just wrong Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #12 May 23, 2005 QuoteBut the real point is, they used their best judgment under the circumstances on how to stay safe, they had a succesful outcome, but they were dumped on by the DZO and a couple of up-timers, basically for not having the "guts" to jump, and that was just wrong agree entirely - also wrt my own experience as described above. as a matter of interest, did these guys stick around in the sport or not? I think experienced jumpers sometimes underestimate how important their actions are in keeping a newbie interested in continuing with the sport. It's scary enough as a newbie - to feel both scared and stupid or intimidated would probably be enough to make some people give up, no matter how much they love jumping.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GreenLight 5 #13 May 23, 2005 In my opinion, the "pussies" are the ones that keep their mouths shut about safety issues. A few high number jumpers, (myself included) were permanently banned from a high profile local DZ for bringing up safety issues. The owner/pilot was the main culprit in two of these incidents. When the ousted jumpers tried to gain support of USPA and the other jumpers at the DZ, the USPA said it was not their place to intervene and the other jumpers stayed quiet for fear of being ousted also... This was wrong, always has been wrong and always will be wrong. Since then I lost all respect for everyone invloved at that DZ and the USPA itself. So again I say, the pussies are the ones who keep their mouths shut....Green Light "Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there." "Your statement answered your question." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #14 May 23, 2005 QuoteQuoteIf it's not yet, make it that way. Hmm I have heard that is considered whining at one DZ we know of. Drive south, woman, drive south! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Salsa_John 0 #15 May 23, 2005 I am a newbie... I have never been given a hard time for not doing something I was not comfortable with... I have been given a hard time for doing something I was not ready for... I have been praised for not doing something I was not comfortable with... QuoteAnother time at the same DZ I saw the same DZO give a hard time to a newbie freefall student (who started on S/L & had maybe 10 jumps total) who was given a rental rig that wasn't equipped with an RSL or an AAD and asked to exchange it for a student rig that did have them. The DZO gave him the different rig, but made it clear he wasn't happy about it, and started bad-mouthing this newbie around the DZ. All the low-number jumpers at this DZ knew about these incidents, and learned quickly to keep their mouths shut and not "bother" the DZO or experienced jumpers with "dumb questions". I would like to know which DZ this was so I refrain from spending my hard earned $ there. As much as I can being new and and only slightly less ignorant, I will always try to answer questions of low timers and non-jumpers or direct them to an instructor. this was done with me and so I will do it with others... I took over an hour to help a high school kid with his report on parachuting even going as far as unpacking my rig so he could vid it being repacked... "You did what?!?!" MUFF #3722, TDSM #72, Orfun #26, Nachos Rodriguez Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zep 0 #16 May 23, 2005 I think you've had some good answers, From my experience ex AFF students are the most aprehensive at getting out at low altitudes for obvious reasons I would like to reitirate some thing Tom Buch wrote as I feel most "Newbies" do not understand the dangers of storm fronts Quote. In the case of a storm moving in, I won't get out at any altitude, even if the pilot insists. In that case we need to land the airplane away from the storm. end quote. Rapidly building Cumulus nimbas (cumulonimbus) can do you serious damage or kill you Gone fishing Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #17 May 23, 2005 Heck, I'm glad I did my jumps at Elsinore. I did find myself unfit to bring up safety issues that I saw. I'd usually just ask questions about things I saw so I'd know how to appropriately react. The people and the staff were receptive and always answered questions. There was only one time I ever really did anything. It was my 17th jump - recurrency. We were on the second run and the door opened. I was sitting on the other side, and I looked out the window to see a plane a few thousand feet below heading right for where we'd be dropping at a 90 degree heading from jump run - on line to intercept in about 45 seconds. I called to the guys in the door to "GET BACK IN THE PLANE!" They went. The second group was approaching the door and Lob, who was sitting across from me, said, "What?" I said, "Air traffic below." My instructor heard, looked out, confirmed it. The other group came back. Lob asked me how many jumps I had while we went around. I told him, "16." He smiled and said, "Great job." What a great jump, too! I read stories like that and thank my stars I learned at a place like Elsinore. I'll admit, it was tough making that call. My instructor and Lob did not seem to mind one bit. Students - if a dz makes you feel inferior for asking questiosn and bringing up safety issues, go find another DZ. Students - don't go offering advice to anyone. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #18 May 23, 2005 A low timer should always feel free to *ASK* if something is OK. If not, find a new DZ. A low timer should not offer advice on how something should be done. If someone says, "Is that a good idea?" Most people who know better will think about it...."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Newbie 0 #19 May 23, 2005 I came off of AFF and asked if my brake line was safe because i landed on about jump number 10 and noticed the finger trap loop and thought it may have frayed while opening. I was told it was fine and i would learn about it on packing. A few jumps later, I saw a pro swooper who was getting out low with his riser covers open on the plane because he was deploying sub terminal, but didn't realise this at the time or even knew what swooping was and asked him if he knew they were not closed. He said yeah, explained why, and thanked me for looking out for him though. I said to a jumper with over 2000 jumps that his chest strap was hanging (although done up) while we were taxiing for take off recently and he looked at me with a "thanks, but i know what i'm doing look". I don't care. If i see something i don't understand, or do understand but not sure if it's safe, i'll always ask to make sure. Lives are at stake, we aren't playing tiddlywinks, and while it all might be fine and dandy, i would rather know in my mind that i and my fellow jumpers are ok. If someone on AFF spots something about my gear, i would rather he spoke up and asked me about it, then sat there and wondered if it was safe. Besides, even if it's perfectly fine, it provides a talking point as to why it's ok, therefore helping education people "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #20 May 23, 2005 First, an anecdote. A few monthes ago I was taking part in one of Brian Germain's canopy courses. The course involved a wide range of students. I was at one end of the experience chain, while others had as few as 26 jumps. Most seemed to have had between 100 and 300 jumps. Brian was videoing the landings for discussion. On my landing, I executed an aggresive front riser manuever resulting in a 270 degree turn, putting me in a steep dive and (hopefully), a cool swoop. Brian videod the manuever and showed it to the class. He hit 'pause' at a crucial part of the manuever where it appeared that I was actually above the canopy. Many people in the class quickly started murmering, one person said out loud "that doesn't look safe....!" They thought that since it appeared I was above the canopy, that the canopy was about to collapse. Brian scurried over, picked up a copy of his book The Parachute and its Pilot, held it up, and showed the class that the front cover of his book showed a picture of him in the exact same position. That started a good discussion about the high risk of turns before landing, but it also talked about how jumpers can understand the mechanics of aggresive manuevers, and some day do it - at an appropriate altitude. In reality, I was not over my canopy, nor was Brian in the photo on the cover of the book. In both cases, the jumper being over the canopy was only the perception of people on the ground, simply a perceptual oddity of basic geometry In my example, while the 270 degree turn before landing certainly was dangerous, the orientation of the canopy at the start of the manuever was not. The point here, is that often times newer jumpers have a mistaken idea of what constitutes "safe", and what constitutes "dangerous". Young jumpers should be cautious about being too judgmental about issues they don't understand. Asking questions is good, making a big stink over something they might not understand may not be wise. In the post that started this thread, that does not appear to be going on. Still, something to be wary of. My second point is quite different. Young jumpers are in a very good position to give real criticisms to DZO's for unsafe practices. More experienced jumpers often get tied into keeping their mouthes shut because they work for the DZO, or have strong relationships with people who do. Experienced jumpers often keep their mouths shut for "political" reasons. Students are the livelihood of all Dropzones. They are the largest source of revenue for dropzones. If certain DZ practices are giving students the idea that DZ isn't safe - well, those students hold a lot more power over the DZO than a "fun-jumper". One student who migrates to "other dropzone down the road" represents a much larger cost to the DZO than one fun-jumper who takes the same path. Students hold a lot more sway in a DZO's mind than they get credit for. If a DZO is being disrespectful, that's a great sign that they should find somewhere else to jump. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LuvToFly 0 #21 May 23, 2005 A couple of months ago I was in Deland in a Porter stuffed with 9 guys. The pilot went up and circled a bit but could not find a hole at altitude. He eventually descended to 2,500 feet and paused there so that whoever wanted to get out could jump. Everyone in the plane jumped except me and two other guys. The two other guys were Russian and I don't think they knew what has happening. I did not jump because this is below my normal opening altitude. I could have, but decided to be conservative. I thought I might get some flack but didn't give a crap really. In actuality the folks at the DZ were very supportive about this. What I did see however was some low timers in the plane that jumped because they clearly felt pressured to do so - not wanting to be labeled as a "wimp" etc. You could tell they really didn't want to jump but did anyway (by the way, there were still some clouds around at 2,500 on this day as well) If anything can be learned, it's not to give a crap what other people think or say when it comes to your own personal safety and comfort level. Never feel forced to do anything you are not comfortable with. Come down with the plane if you must. Better to jump another day than to go into a territory that you feel is unsafe - There is absolutely no place for peer or even DZO pressure in this sport. You have charge over your safety. "The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #22 May 23, 2005 QuoteHe eventually descended to 2,500 feet and paused there so that whoever wanted to get out could jump. Everyone in the plane jumped except me and two other guys. There is limit, though. Scenario one (what actually happened) - If this was just a choice to land with a good plane and only concern about conditions or comfort, then good for you. Scenario two (hypothetical to make a point) - But if it had been a refusal to jump during an emergency, then 2500 is 'very' high. If you would have balked during a real emergency, then I encourage you to take some training in order to get comfortable with emergency exits. Hop n pops should be a criteria to graduate. Don't do what you aren't prepared for. But, recognize that this is missing and make a positive decision to get that needed training. A good crowd of "people in authority at the DZ" will encourage you to get preparation. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #23 May 24, 2005 Andy your story about the bad dropzone from long ago has such an eerie ring to it that I've PM'ed you about it, as I'd rather not make an assumption and start throwing names around. All I'd like to add to this discussion is that after returning to the sport from a 22 year layoff, I'm very happy - so far - to see a MUCH more positive attitude in our sport. A lot of the old macho bullshit has fallen by the wayside and it seems to me that dropzone staff, instructors, and experienced jumpers are much more receptive to safety concerns voiced by newbies. Of course nothing's perfect and we have our share of insufferable head cases who think they're God's gift to freefall, but in general things are a lot better. I hope... On the other hand, newbies don't always have the perspective to see "both sides" of a safety issue. So many have been raised up on AFF that they're scared of jumping or pulling below 4 grand. They don't even grasp the simple fact that it takes ten seconds to fall the first thousand feet, so leaving the plane at 2500 ft gives them the same amount of time (more or less) as a terminal pull at 4 grand. Sometimes newbies need to be told what's good for them, but it needs to be done in a positive and reassuring way. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LuvToFly 0 #24 May 24, 2005 QuoteQuoteHe eventually descended to 2,500 feet and paused there so that whoever wanted to get out could jump. Everyone in the plane jumped except me and two other guys. There is limit, though. Scenario one (what actually happened) - If this was just a choice to land with a good plane and only concern about conditions or comfort, then good for you. Scenario two (hypothetical to make a point) - But if it had been a refusal to jump during an emergency, then 2500 is 'very' high. If you would have balked during a real emergency, then I encourage you to take some training in order to get comfortable with emergency exits. Hop n pops should be a criteria to graduate. Don't do what you aren't prepared for. But, recognize that this is missing and make a positive decision to get that needed training. A good crowd of "people in authority at the DZ" will encourage you to get preparation. Scenario 1, for sure. Could have jumped lower - chose not to. Really a matter of preference. It was just good to know that there was no flack about it - even though would have done the same either way. If was emergency, out the door no problem - "The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #25 May 24, 2005 Another story about the same DZ I mentioned at the beginning of this thread. Take it for what it's worth. This place was a student S/L "mill" before "tandem mills" existed. Back when all their student rigs were cheapos (round military surplus canopies), which don't give the softest landings, they used to teach S/L first jump course students, "We teach the standup landing method...", which translated to: they only taught the students to keep their feet and knees together at landing, but unlike most other DZ's, they never taught them how to do a PLF, or even mentioned it. That's how they taught me. And it worked fine, as long as you were backing up. But if you mis-judged and did a downwind or sideways landing (as students will do...), knowing how to do a PLF would have come in handy. When a jumper friend of mine who knew how to do a PLF advised me that I ought to learn it (I was still a novice), did I ask the guys at the DZ to teach me? Hell no. I got myself a skydiving book, read the chapter on PLF's and practiced jumping off the picnic table in my back yard. (Dad, through the window: "What the hell are you DOING out there??" Me: "Uh....nothing, Dad." Dad, to my mom: "That kid's ready for the funny farm.") Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
