A first look at a no pull cypres save

[popsjumper 2]

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One point you seem to be missing is that with your method you do a full controllability check, and then you reconfigure your rig for landing. As evidenced here, the reconfiguring itself can negate that controllability check.

True dat. Not missing that at all. However, as per your statement, all of the housekeeping reconfigures so let's do all the housekeeping first. OK with that? No, nobody is.

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It's faster to pull it past the stowed toggles, and the canopy is going slower.

There you go with the "it's easier". Many would not think the difference is problematic. Flying slower, sure...and still don't know if I'm flying a good one or not. YMMV

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Net altitude loss or ground covered would be less during the maneuver.

True dat. If it turned out I had a defective canopy, all that altitude and distance is wasted.

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If you are not capable of checking your canopy with the brakes stowed to a 100% certainty that it's good short of unstowing the brakes, then pulling the slider down is too much for you.

You neglect consideration for a stuck toggle or one that comes off in your hand. Nope, we can never be 100% sure of a good, fully functional canopy until after we release the brakes.

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Once you accept that you are going to introduce the extra risk of pulling your slider down (it would be safer not to)you might as well follow the method that is quicker and with less net altitude loss in the process.

That's what the debate is all about isn't it? One's preference on how much risk one is willing to assume. I'll always put forth the conservative approach.

I will always teach the conservative to the young jumpers. How risky you want to be is a personal decision. Hopefully, we can get more people to make intelligent decisions for themselves and they can't do that if they don't have the info from all sides of the issue. As always, what risk-taking is good for one person doesn't make it good for everybody.

Going by the testimonials I've seen both public and private, I think this debate has been good. It has opened up windows for some that were closed before.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[champu 1]

davelepka

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What should be clear is the need for a good, flyable, landable canopy as your top priority after collision avoidance. Housekeeping is third in line.

One point you seem to be missing is that with your method you do a full controllability check, and then you reconfigure your rig for landing. As evidenced here, the reconfiguring itself can negate that controllability check.

I'm just reading through this thread now, but this was my first reaction to popsjumpers's argument. It doesn't do you any good to rush to the step where you release your brakes to make sure you don't have a control system issue if you are going to then do something that can result in a control system issue. All you're doing is confirming that the canopy you fouled up by pulling your slider down over your toggles would have been fine if you weren't a clod. Wendy's Dacron configuration where she can't get the slider down around the stowed brakes notwithstanding.

Pulling your slider down or not, you need to make sure you have properly maintained risers/toggles that stow securely, sensibly stowed excess brake line, and risers that will keep your slider where you plan for it to be. If you're not pulling it down, use slink hats or bumpers to keep it from creeping into your controls from above while you're flying. If you are pulling it down, use stops or blocks to keep it from creeping into your controls from below while you're flying.

[popsjumper 2]

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I'm just reading through this thread now, but this was my first reaction to popsjumpers's argument. It doesn't do you any good to rush to the step where you release your brakes to make sure you don't have a control system issue if you are going to then do something that can result in a control system issue. All you're doing is confirming that the canopy you fouled up by pulling your slider down over your toggles would have been fine if you weren't a clod.

OK. Point taken.
Big boys should be able to handle it. Unfortunately, not all "big boys" are the same...as demonstrated in the vid.
Hopefully, all the bantering back and forth has given those 'big boys' some food for thought, too.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[nigel99 143]

popsjumper

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Surely you can't do that if you unstow your brakes first? It's going to put you on full drive with no hands in toggles...

Sure you can! It's easier, and safer, than having to be so, so careful about accidentally unstowing that toggle and maybe tangling the line excess!

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I do buy into the argument that pulling the slider down improves visibility and since I do alot of 8 way and bigger that is a bonus.

Personally, I've never understood this because I've never noticed it with the slider above the risers. Oh, well.

Hi Andy,

Interesting debate. I always put a lot of weight into your opinions (why does this sentence always , precede 'but I'm going to ignore you anyway?')

Firstly you're absolutely correct that the value of pulling the slider down is minimal for most of us. So I'm in complete agreement on that front. As the video shows it comes with a not insignificant risk.

Now for the ignore you part. My canopy really 'falls' out the sky with brakes unstowed, and I'm going to go with the general/wider view that Dave has put forward and pull it down over the toggles, while stowed. I'm also going to mention that it is an optional step and not needed on every jump.

Having now jumped a few times pulling it down, I would say that for ME the visibility argument is not valid. Yes it gives me a clearer view of what is above and behind, but I can no longer see as much below and behind, and I ALWAYS check below and behind prior to turning... Add the distraction of pulling it down, and I don't believe I'll be doing this on bigger RW jumps.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[davelepka 4]

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In reply to:
.

If you are not capable of checking your canopy with the brakes stowed to a 100% certainty that it's good short of unstowing the brakes, then pulling the slider down is too much for you.
You neglect consideration for a stuck toggle or one that comes off in your hand. Nope, we can never be 100% sure of a good, fully functional canopy until after we release the brakes.

To be fair (to me), I do say 'it's good, short of unstowing the brakes'. Meaning that everything else looks good, and it appears to be a good canopy as it sits. At that point, you can move to the next step, which in my opinion would be to pull the slider past the stowed toggles, and then (as I mention) you complete the controllability check by unstowing your toggles above your hard deck.

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In reply to:
.

It's faster to pull it past the stowed toggles, and the canopy is going slower.
There you go with the "it's easier". Many would not think the difference is problematic. Flying slower, sure...and still don't know if I'm flying a good one or not. YMMV

Please note that I used the word 'faster' this time, not easier (even though the ease leads to the quicker action). The key to this is not my personal time/effort/feeling, it's as it relates to the net altitude loss during the maneuver. What I'm looking for is the quickest path from PC toss, to flying my canopy in the 'landing' configuration. That's where you will be the most aware, and have the greatest ability to effectively 'fly' your canopy with regards to traffic and the LZ, and the sooner you can get there from the PC toss (in my opinion) the better.

Another poster made a great point, and this will vary from person to person, but some canopies at some loadings really fall out of the sky in full flight. My Velo, for example, at about 2.0 WL will loose a good deal of altitude if I have to drop the toggles for even 15 or 20 seconds to pull the slider down and stow it. Even in brakes, it's not real 'floaty' and the sooner I can get on the toggles and haul them down to 1/2 brakes, the sooner I can get to a 'reasonable' descent rate.

Again, that's a factor that will vary from person to person, and indeed a drawback of the canopy type and WL I jump, but it's a trade-off I make for the performance of the canopy.

Overall I'm glad to see your admission that the back-and-forth is not for our benefit (you and I). Neither one of us is about to change the way we operate in these areas, but the discussion is for the newer jumpers who may not have considered any of the points you or I have made.

[TracyS 0]

To ALL that have been debating this topic. THANK YOU!
As a 50 jump newbie, this has been one of the best threads I have read on this forum.
It hasn't devolved into heated tirades with a bunch of useless, smartass shots at each other.
I can see that I, personally, have been doing something in my housekeeping that I will change effective immediately. Prior to releasing my brakes, I have been collapsing my slider and stowing it AND loosening my chest strap.
I will no longer be loosening my chest strap prior to releasing my brakes. I will save that step until after my brakes are released an am in full flight.
Although not the actual topic of debate, I can't help but wonder if the cause of the malfunction was the act of pulling the slider down or not giving the task the attention it deserves.
Just like driving a car and operating the turn signal, something we all do without even looking at it because we've done it thousands of times. Was this malfunction induced because the jumper had done it thousands of times and, as the video seems to show me, was not really focusing on it. He seems to not be looking at the slider and just reaching up and pulling it down, as he has done so many times before, and maybe he grabbed the toggle in addition to the slider.
This is a task that is still new enough to me, that when I do it, I look at the toggle/grommet and watch it as I am doing it, so that I see what is happening.

I collapse the slider and pull it down prior to releasing the brakes because I feel it is better to do it in slow flight than in full flight, but, like any other task, it must be given the attention that it deserves.
As Popsjumper has said, it is a Big Boy task. It is not a necessary part of what we do, but something we choose to do as a part of our sport.
Like any other activity, like practicing stalls or slow flight, has risks and benefits.

Thanks again to everyone for the great debate on this topic. It has opened my eyes to a risk that I am going to change with regards to when I loosen my chest strap.

Canopies must all be female. If I treat mine good, she gives me a good ride. If I slap her in the bag, she will dump me like a turd.

Courtesy of PRE7117, love that line.

[toolbox 0]

Thanks Pops jumper,using toggles to get control of the canopy after inflation is exactly what I was saying.
AFF students are not introduced to rear riser use with brakes stowed to get directional control for collision avoidance until category D.
Just from my personal experience,most first jump students are spun out pretty good at deployment, and expecting them to have enough presence of mind to go straight to rears when they are taught that the toggles are used to steer and flare the canopy is unrealistic.
Give them the information they can handle, and they need to get control of, and determine wether or not they can land their canopy safely,and once they are more relaxed(around 3 or 4 deployments) and ready for more information then introduce rear riser input for collision avoidance right after deployment.
Keep it simple,and take small steps in learning or risk overload and confusion of the students.

[toolbox 0]

I never said anything about students not being taught right of way,which is collision avoidance by the way.
AFF first jump students should be taught collision avoidance,and then reviewed on it prior to their next skydives,but they are not introduced to using rears for directional control with brakes stowed until category D.
Students use big,slow, docile canopies for many reasons,and a couple are because they fly slow and are less likely to spin on deployment.
Students pull higher for many reasons,one reason is to help keep them out of the mix of the other canopies in the air.
Giving too much information to students is not recommended,and since their fun meter is maxxed out at deployment,expecting them to go straight to rears without popping the brakes is unrealistic since their focus at the moment of inflation is making sure they have a good canopy overhead.
The two points of the skydive with the highest levels of stress are exit from the aircraft and deployment time,and this is for every skydiver not just students,but students are extra stressed out because they have not had the experience of these things yet.
Back to the original topic,I always use rears after inflation to steer towards my upwind holding area,or to avoid other traffic,but pop my brakes within seconds of inflation and do my CCC with as much altitude as possible just in case.
After the CCC then I deal with the slider,chest strap,ect...
I have a wing loading of 2:1 and have no problem flying and controlling my canopy while house keeping.
If you cannot fly in full drive while housekeeping and avoiding other traffic then you should get a slower canopy in my opinion.

[popsjumper 2]

Well, knowing you, Nigel, I would trust you to do whatever best suits your needs.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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To ALL that have been debating this topic. THANK YOU!
As a 50 jump newbie, this has been one of the best threads I have read on this forum.

I'm sure I can speak for Dave and all the others when I say, You are very much welcome and we are all glad that you are learning. Keep that going throughout your entire skydiving career....it will serve you well.

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It hasn't devolved into heated tirades with a bunch of useless, smartass shots at each other.

It usually takes a lot to get Dave going.

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Although not the actual topic of debate, I can't help but wonder if the cause of the malfunction was the act of pulling the slider down or not giving the task the attention it deserves.

Yeah..the slider was the topic of our latest debate about housekeeping. In Liam's blog, he specifically said he popped the toggle while pulling the slider down. Paying closer attention may have prevented it yes. And yes, doing it a thousand times with no problem is the primary cause of what we call complacency.

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This is a task that is still new enough to me, that when I do it, I look at the toggle/grommet and watch it as I am doing it, so that I see what is happening.

Maintain that forever don't get complacent. See how I used that big word in a run-on sentence?

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Like any other activity, like practicing stalls or slow flight, has risks and benefits.

We are absolutely in agreement.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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Another poster made a great point, and this will vary from person to person, but some canopies at some loadings really fall out of the sky in full flight. My Velo, for example, at about 2.0 WL will loose a good deal of altitude if I have to drop the toggles for even 15 or 20 seconds to pull the slider down and stow it. Even in brakes, it's not real 'floaty' and the sooner I can get on the toggles and haul them down to 1/2 brakes, the sooner I can get to a 'reasonable' descent rate.

This is probably what was driving our preferences...you on the hot rod, me on a much slower-flying canopy - Triathlon 175/190....kinda like what students and young jumper fly. My major concern is for them, not the hot rods.

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Overall I'm glad to see your admission that the back-and-forth is not for our benefit (you and I).

Admission? Obviously, and I don't know why, you were thinking this was all about personal benefits...from either one of us?
No, not even close, Dave. I thought you knew me well enough from DZ.com training posts to know that, for me, it's all about the students and young jumpers. I have no ego involved here. My hope is that we can get them the information they need to be safe jumpers and that we can instill a sense of safety that will see them through a long career in skydiving. I'm sorry if you thought otherwise. Please know in the future how I stand and how I roll.

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Neither one of us is about to change the way we operate in these areas,

Who knows, Dave. I'm not above trying/doing new things. I'd like to think you aren't either. Fact is, neither you, nor me, nor anyone else knows it all.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[dorbie 0]

An incident at Skydive Dallas on 1/15/2005 has a lot in common with this incident, that had a fatal outcome:

[popsjumper 2]

OK..it's been just about two weeks and no further info has been passed.

My thought process after canopy deployment and inflation:

- My airspace clear? Keep monitoring it.

- Do I have a landable canopy?
(control check. OK, that's good.)

- Check my altitude and location. Can I get to a safe landing spot from here?
(Yeah. OK, that's good.)

- If I had to cutaway and deploy my reserve right now, could I still get to a good landing area?
(OK, that's good.)

- Clear airspace again. Good to go.

- Now I can do housekeeping.

If my answer to any of the italicized questions is, "No", housekeeping will not get done until the much more important issues are resolved.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

No takers?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239