0
strop45

A first look at a no pull cypres save

Recommended Posts

I want to see a demonstration.......***[reply
Quote

If you are going to take your slider past your toggles you are going to have to take your hands out of your toggles, period.


No, not a requirement to drop the toggles.
This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

If you are going to take your slider past your toggles you are going to have to take your hands out of your toggles, period.

Quote

No, not a requirement to drop the toggles.



Quote

I want to see a demonstration.......



You can do this yourself....
...just don't pull the slider down. There's no requirement that you pull the slider down nor drop the tioggles.

Were you thinking something else....like how to get your hand through the slider grommets?
:D:D
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Another silly argument. If you have made the decision that you are going to lower the slider and put it behind your head you need to do it before you release the brakes. You also need to assess the situation and decide if stowing the slider is appropriate on this particular canopy ride. I usually do it. But I leave flying slider up as an option. If I release the brakes for any reason lowering the slider is no longer worth the trouble or risk. Just because one Bozo never does this doesn't mean another Bozo is wrong.

G. Tirebiter
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
gowlerk

Another silly argument. If you have made the decision that you are going to lower the slider and put it behind your head you need to do it before you release the brakes. You also need to assess the situation and decide if stowing the slider is appropriate on this particular canopy ride. I usually do it. But I leave flying slider up as an option. If I release the brakes for any reason lowering the slider is no longer worth the trouble or risk. Just because one Bozo never does this doesn't mean another Bozo is wrong.

G. Tirebiter



This whole conversation is bonkers. Whatever about when one might release ones steering controls, opening ones chest strap in advance of this moment is just stupid. Arguing about the slider, and what one does with the slider, is interesting, but missing the point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

If you have made the decision that you are going to lower the slider and put it behind your head you need to do it before you release the brakes.



One last time.
We are trying to wean people away from the idea to do all those housekeeping chores first before checking for a good canopy for a reason....this vid shows one of them.

You people are propagating the incidents of people getting caught up in housekeeping and neglecting to do the most important things...making sure you have a good canopy.

From another POV...

Which is more likely
- a canopy collision after opening, clearing airspace, control check and setting up for clear cAnopy flight

or

accidentally giving yourself a mal or taking too long to do get it done and finding out your altitude is gone for proper mal handling.


Guess what..the 2nd is more prevalent by far.



So I ask one last time and then I'm done....

Why do you guys insist that people do something that is more likely to get them into trouble when there is a procedure that is less likely to do so?

Please don't say...it's easier.
And "because that's how I do it" is not valid either...regardless of your experience level.

And lastly, if that's what you want to do, fine. But please don't try to convince others to do something more problematic...especially our younger jumpers.
Thanks in advance.



Quote

G. Tirebiter


I see what you did here, Georgie.
Are you still a student like me?
:D:D
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Arguing about the slider, and what one does with the slider, is interesting, but missing the point.



The point is procedural order for canopy flight. Slider is only one step in the procedure....we've pretty much nit-picked it to death, haven't we?
:D:D
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
popsjumper

Quote

Arguing about the slider, and what one does with the slider, is interesting, but missing the point.



The point is procedural order for canopy flight. Slider is only one step in the procedure....we've pretty much nit-picked it to death, haven't we?
:D:D


Not yet. Opening ones chest strap before sorting out every thing else is bonkers. No laughs, no happy faces.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Not yet. Opening ones chest strap before sorting out every thing else is bonkers. No laughs, no happy faces.



Have you read the entire thread, yet?

(utter sincerity...no laughs, no happy faces...strictly stoic.)
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Not to be a douche, and maybe I'm totally wrong on this, but wouldn't correction with the rear riser(s) be the first course of action here? OP knew it was a brake fire, why not grab the rear riser?

Get the canopy flying level and there would have been lots more time to deal with anything.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I had a conversation with a rigger at CSC recently and relayed my "distracted" story.

She looked at me and said "do you need to pull your slider down?" and I smiled and said, "no I don't".

On that vein, she responded, "Your flying a 190 square foot canopy, did you notice a change in performance?" Again, answer "No".

I think, and please correct me if I'm wrong, if your not down in sub 100 velo land, flying an HP canopy, slider stowage is not necessarily going to improve anything about your flight characteristics... Any takers?

Additionally, I started opening up my chest strap nice and wide. Again, I didn't notice any change in flight characteristics however maybe that's just because I don't have the experience to? Or is this the same situation?

If both above are correct, then it's a small percentage of the flying community that benefit from either activity. True or False?

Lastly, to Pops, Dave Lepka, others.

Per the "lost silver handle" portion of this malfunction. If a skydiver were to look, grab red right hand, grab silver left hand, then peel/pull red, followed by pull silver, wouldn't having your hand in the silver handle help when the rig shifts from the cutaway?

Aka, would that prevent the whole "lost handle" situation?

Just curious as it seems to make logical sense but I don't have any practical knowledge to back it up.


Thanks again all, great discussion.


Jack

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
And it's not that hard to pull the slider down over unstowed brakes. I discovered that when I started re-lining my canopies with Dacron for softer openings, that I could no longer pull my slider down without I stowing the brakes first. The extra bulk when it was stowed was just too much. For the first 2-3 times it was weird, but now it's every bit as simple as doing it with the brakes stowed.

And loosening your chest strap before unstowing your brakes is just madness....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
davelepka

I'm not sure of your experience with this, but I have been pulling my slider past my toggles for 1000's of jumps.


Yip and so had Liam. This is an interesting discussion and its not clear to me whether unstowing brakes before or after collapsing the slider is "safer", what is clear is that you need to do it as soon as it is safe to remove your hands from the rear risers, so that if things go south you have time to react.
The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
>And it's not that hard to pull the slider down over unstowed brakes.

Agreed, although I generally recommend people mess with sliders before they release their brakes if possible. That way their canopy is going more slowly and they have more time to deal with potential problems (like other traffic.)

The one exception to this are canopies like the Diablo/Neos/first generation Vision (although I know you have had better experiences with the Diablo than I have.) The Diablos I have jumped were horrendously unstable with brakes stowed, so it makes more sense to release brakes first, then do any slider stowing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Maybe I missed something here, just before the level canopy flight departs into the left spin, from the video I observed:
* toggles stowed
* slider collapsed but didn't appear to have been pulled down past toggles, left side of the slider had slipped lower than where the left toggle was stowed, but not intentionally pulled down
* canopy initiated the left turn BEFORE the right toggle was un-stowed (go back and stop the video when he touches the stowed right toggle in the video, the canopy is already turning).

It appears to me the initial departure from level flight was a harness turn to the left, neither toggle was touched until after the canopy had already started turning. Whether the increased speed from the turn caused the slider to lower on the left who knows. Seems our jumper was distracted & just didn't pay attention to the details.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
stinkyho

Not to be a douche, and maybe I'm totally wrong on this, but wouldn't correction with the rear riser(s) be the first course of action here? OP knew it was a brake fire, why not grab the rear riser?

Get the canopy flying level and there would have been lots more time to deal with anything.



Not being a douche at all. Good question.
You would stop the spin by using the released toggle. Specifically, you'd pull it down at least to the catseye on the brake line being even with the guide ring where the brake is normally set. That will match the setting of the other toggle restoring left/right symmetry for straight and level flight.

And you are correct, get the canopy flying level will reduce your descent rate burning less altitude while you work towards freeing the other toggle.

Also it will give some control to perform avoidance maneuvers if necessary.

Not to make light of a situation, but you might find yourself holding that toggle in your teeth while you work with both hands...it happens.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

On that vein, she responded, "Your flying a 190 square foot canopy, did you notice a change in performance?" Again, answer "No"

.
Kudos to your rigger.

Quote

I think, and please correct me if I'm wrong, if your not down in sub 100 velo land, flying an HP canopy, slider stowage is not necessarily going to improve anything about your flight characteristics... Any takers?


Well, yes, there really is an improvement in flight characteristics. Brian Germain is our most outspoken proponent of that. In the big scheme of things, you re correct in thinking that the improvement at your level of experience and such will be only somewhat noticeable. And yes, the more wingloading, you'll notice the improvement more easily.

Quote


If both above are correct, then it's a small percentage of the flying community that benefit from either activity. True or False?


You are going to get some debate on that. Improvement is improvement, benefit is benefit and, IMO, it's relative.

Personally, at my wingloading and my conservative canopy flights, I found the benefit not worth the additional cost of doing the housekeeping. YMMV.


Quote


Per the "lost silver handle" portion of this malfunction. If a skydiver were to look, grab red right hand, grab silver left hand, then peel/pull red, followed by pull silver, wouldn't having your hand in the silver handle help when the rig shifts from the cutaway?

Aka, would that prevent the whole "lost handle" situation?



You were obviously taught the one-handed method and that's fine. What you are saying is one of the arguments used by those debating the virtues of 1-handed vs 2-handed methods.

Personally, I can agree with either with the caveat that you LOOK for the handles before you go pulling anything.

Yes, yes, guys.....you can't spend the rest of your life looking..you'll have to pull something sooner or later.

In the case of the vid, IIRC, he said finding the handle was a problem because of his camera wings and the direction of his "spin". Even if he had looked (and I don't really know that he didn't), he may not have been able to see it.

On top if that, some people, just by virtue of the way they are built, are unable to see the handles anyway. You should learn methods of finding them without being able to see them....think worst case violent mal with harness twisted around.

I'm happy that somebody is reading, digesting, thinking and asking. Keep that attitude going....it will serve you well.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

....mess with sliders before they release their brakes if possible. That way their canopy is going more slowly and they have more time to deal with potential problems (like other traffic.)



Yes, there's virtue in that...up until things go to pot like the toggle release. Now you are spinning out of control unable to avoid anything.

So, after you clear your airspace and keeping your head on a swivel, you have to decide for yourself...

-Do I want to ignore or my subjugate my need for a proven good canopy to unnecessary housekeeping?

-Would I rather my body be flying fast through the sky and under control with the brakes released while I do housekeeping or,

-Would I rather do the housekeeping first and have my body flying fast through the sky with no control when things go to pot.

I like the under control idea myself. And I strongly recommend it.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
strop45

***I'm not sure of your experience with this, but I have been pulling my slider past my toggles for 1000's of jumps.


Yip and so had Liam. This is an interesting discussion and its not clear to me whether unstowing brakes before or after collapsing the slider is "safer", what is clear is that you need to do it as soon as it is safe to remove your hands from the rear risers, so that if things go south you have time to react.

What should be clear is the need for a good, flyable, landable canopy as your top priority after collision avoidance. Housekeeping is third in line.

Is collapsing a going to cause a major problem with your canopy? Not very likely. Collapsing is one thing pulling it down past the toggles is another.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
At 1;44 you can see the right toggle has been released. It was unstowed as he pulled down the slider over it (which is not shown).

Quote from Liam's blog:
"By this point I was just about entering my set up point for my landing pattern, and went to pull the slider behind my head. As I pulled the slider down, I had a break fire on my right hand brake toggle."
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

What should be clear is the need for a good, flyable, landable canopy as your top priority after collision avoidance. Housekeeping is third in line.

Is collapsing a going to cause a major problem with your canopy? Not very likely. Collapsing is one thing pulling it down past the toggles is another.



One point you seem to be missing is that with your method you do a full controllability check, and then you reconfigure your rig for landing. As evidenced here, the reconfiguring itself can negate that controllability check.

So if you have to slice up the tasks to maximize the safety factor, stowing the slider first has more advantages than not. It's faster to pull it past the stowed toggles, and the canopy is going slower. Net altitude loss or ground covered would be less during the maneuver.

If you do your full controllability check first (meaning you unstow the brakes), you're starting to work on your slider later, it's going to take longer to pull past the toggles (when the toggles are unstowed, you have to thread the nose of the toggle through the grommet on each side, when they are stowed and held tight to the riser, it's a non-issue) and you'll be losing altitude and covering ground at a greater rate the whole time.

More or less there are two things that can go wrong, there could be a problem with the brakes unstowing manually, or you can create a problem trying to pull down the slider. By pulling down the slider first, the process of setting the slider and unstowing the brakes happens faster with less altitude loss.

When you unstow the brakes first, you prolong the seconds step of stowing the slider and induce more altitude loss at the same time.

Once again, this is a 'big boy' maneuver in any sense. If you are not capable of checking your canopy with the brakes stowed to a 100% certainty that it's good short of unstowing the brakes, then pulling the slider down is too much for you. Once you accept that you are going to introduce the extra risk of pulling your slider down (it would be safer not to)you might as well follow the method that is quicker and with less net altitude loss in the process.

On top of that all, the chest strap should always be last. This way, if you do have a brake problem, your handles are where you expect them to be. Once everything else is done, with the toggles still in your hands, you can reach down to either end of the chest strap, keeping your hands even and maintaining level flight, and loosen it as much as you wish.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
A first jump students #1 priority after deployment is to make sure they have a good landable canopy and get it under control,most students have a very difficult time using the rear risers for anything on the big student canopies because of heavy riser pressure and high stress levels after deployment ,and they are usually hanging in the saddle by 4,000 feet and are exiting in the back of the exit order as well.First jump students are not doing anything bigger than a 3-way and maybe with video, and the other two in the 3-way are AFF-I's and a maybe a video person who should be pulling lower and watching for the student and each other as well.
I am not saying they should not be aware of other canopies and avoidance,but a first jump student needs to do their CCC and get control of their canopy before they can be effective at avoidance maneuvers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
toolbox

I am not saying they should not be aware of other canopies and avoidance,but a first jump student needs to do their CCC first.


One should always check their airspace before performing any maneuvers, period. It's drilled in freefall and it should be no different under canopy. It doesn't take that long.

I'm a long way away from being an instructor, but teaching someone not to prioritize being aware of their surroundings because they're pulling high at the back of the exit order wouldn't sit well with me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think what he is saying is the AFF students are not taught to use risers for avoidance, they use toggles....after releasing the brakes. Releasing the brakes is the first step of the CC, yes, but I don't think he meant skip the awareness and do the complete CC THEN check for avoidance.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
AviationTD

Wow! As a newbie jumper, this is one of the best topics I ever read. This story and Pop's responses definitely made me rethink everything and beyond.

I MUST REALLY KNOW MY SHIT!



The point of it all:
To give information that you may not have thought of (food for thought) and to showcase different points of view so that you can gain enough information to be able to make intelligent decisions for yourself.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

0