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strop45

A first look at a no pull cypres save

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vanessalh

If he had been able to find his reserve handle below 1000ft (his account sounds like he made the decision to cutaway knowing he couldn't) to me it's just a preference at that point. Although is there something to be said here for risk of entanglement being higher due to the spiral and fired toggle



I don't think that was the case. The theme of his story was that "you don't know what you don't know". He had just recently replaced his chest strap with one that opens wider and he had not taken into account that the location of his reserve handle would have changed because of this!

Andrew
"Better to have a short life that is full of what you like doing than a long life spent in a miserable way." -Alan Watts

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nigel99

Andy, since canopies no longer have slider stops (I'm removing mine tomorrow, as they are worn out). It appears the common thing is to pull your slider BELOW your brakes.

Surely you can't do that if you unstow your brakes first? It's going to put you on full drive with no hands in toggles...

DISCLAIMER - I don't know at this point if I will pull the slider down past toggles, but from tomorrow it will be possible. At my wingloading I'm not interested in improved aerodynamics. I do buy into the argument that pulling the slider down improves visibility and since I do alot of 8 way and bigger that is a bonus.



Keep in mind that pulling the slider behind your head creates a possible entanglement with your helmet/top or side-mount camera in the case of having to chop your main once you've pulled the slider down!:)
Andrew
"Better to have a short life that is full of what you like doing than a long life spent in a miserable way." -Alan Watts

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popsjumper

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The way I understand it, the decision to cutaway would have been a bad one due to the combination of factors: 1) loosened chest strap altering the "location" of handles, and 2) busted decision altitude.


Loosened chest strap has nothing to do with EPs other than if you are going to loosen your strap, then knowing the likely locations of your handles is mandatory. Best bet is to LOOK for your handles before you start grabbing!



I agree and disagree Pops.

With small rigs, articulated harnesses, and ridiculously long chest straps your chest strap may not be part of your EP's, but it sure sure as hell needs to be a consideration in your post opening procedures.

With these extra long chest straps and flexible systems it is possible to get your reserve handle and main lift web all sorts of places away from where it normally is.

Absolutely agree that the EP's need to be look reach pull, but when you are spinning under a highly loaded spun up HP canopy it isn't always as smooth and easy as just looking over and saying, oh look my reserve. You need to look, especially if it is distorted out of the way, but it is much quicker to look locate and pull if it is close to where it should be, which is what the chest strap helps to ensure.

I keep my chest strap moderately tight until after my controllability check. The two spinning cutaways in this configuration kept my handles right where they should have been.

I really think the best procedure is to leave that chest strap properly configured until after you have gone through everything else, have cleared the brakes, and you know that no malfunctions are lurking.

As far of the order of house keeping:

First, open up clear airspace in the direction you need to turn to get off of the jump run line. You will eventually need to locate all of the other canopies but you will head off problems by not flying under the groups the left the plane after you.

Once I have clear air I collapse the slider and pull it past the toggles. If you are putting the slider behind your head you should not unstow you brakes first in my opinion. This puts you in full flight with way more forward speed, and I don't think that is appropriate while you are distracted by your housekeeping chores. It is also much harder to get the slide properly past both toggles and behind your head if you unstow them first.

Then I unstow toggles, flare to deep brakes to slow down while I track the rest of the load.

Finally I let out my chest strap. I can do that with both hands in the toggles.
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

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1. Grab rear risers and check for traffic, being prepared to turn quickly if I need to
2. Check altitude
3. Unstow brakes
4. Controllability check
5.0 Check location
5.5. Take up flight path
6. Misc housekeeping.



This is incorrect.

If your housekeeping includes pulling your slider past your toggles, you do not want to do that with the brakes unstowed. It makes the job 100% more difficult, it takes longer and requires more attention, all the while you're moving though the sky at a much higher speed.

The procedure would be to open up, check for traffic, and use your rear risers or harness to point yourself in the right direction.

Just getting to that point, you have already done the first half of the 'experienced jumper' controllability check. Your canopy is open, square, flying clean and responding correctly to rear riser or harness input. For all intensive purposes, you have a 'good' canopy, short of unstowing your brakes.

Now would be the time to play with your slider. Collapse and pull it past the toggles while taking great care not to dislodge a toggle. You need to look at what you're doing, and move each grommet over the toggles with great care.

Once that is done, you unstow your brakes and complete the controllability check. After that, loosening your chest strap can be done with the brakes unstowed and the toggles still in your hands.

THE CATCH IS - everything has to happen such that you can unstow your brakes and complete your controllability check before you pass your hard deck. If you have a hung brake or knotted brake line, you do not have a good canopy and want to be above your hard deck so you can pull both handles as a solution to the problem.

A note along those same lines, when you unstow your brake, pay attention to what you are doing. Look at your toggles, make sure they appear to be properly stowed and everything is as it was when you packed it. Be sure that you grip the toggles properly, and that there is no loose or excess brake line in your hand or wrapped around anything it should not be. Many, many jumpers have created a problem by putting their hand through the excess brake line, or having it wrapped around something before unstowing their brakes. If they had looked, and been careful, the problem could have been avoided and most likely would have resulted in a clean brake release.

It's a popular theme among skydivers that the skydiver isn't over once your canopy opens. They are generally referring to collisions with other canopies or landing problems. However, we can see here that simply dealing with your gear can cause problems as well.

You wouldn't rush to gear up, or toss your rig on without looking at what you were doing first, but people will rush through or give no credence to their procedures once under an open canopy. Take your time, and be careful with whatever you do, act as if a mistake could cost you your life because it could. Just because the canopy is open and appears 'good' does not mean it will stay that way, especially when your plans include changing the configuration of several components.

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popsjumper

***Now- on with the 200 replies about how he should have done this, or shouldn't have done that. ;)



Absolutely and rightfully so!

For the young jumpers out there, this vid is a good demonstration on:



The jumper hits the key lesson for me.

You're flying an unknown entity until you've done EVERYTHING in your flight checks.
I used to leave my canopy in half brakes and float back to the dz for no particular reason other than laziness until I saw exactly the same thing happen to 2 other people... albeit under less aggressive wings.
That taught me that releasing my brakes are part of my post-deployment process.

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yoink

******Now- on with the 200 replies about how he should have done this, or shouldn't have done that. ;)



Absolutely and rightfully so!

For the young jumpers out there, this vid is a good demonstration on:



The jumper hits the key lesson for me.

You're flying an unknown entity until you've done EVERYTHING in your flight checks.
I used to leave my canopy in half brakes and float back to the dz for no particular reason other than laziness until I saw exactly the same thing happen to 2 other people... albeit under less aggressive wings.
That taught me that releasing my brakes are part of my post-deployment process.

Absolutely, it is not unlike hopping in the car and flooring the gas without making sure that the steering column has unlocked, and the brakes work!

I have unfortunately heard with some regularity newer jumpers being told that they can leave the brakes stowed to get back from a long spot.

Not only is it not the best way to get back from a long spot if you are upwind with strong uppers, but I cringe to think about a new jumper waiting until pattern to unstow their brakes only to find out that they have a knotted control line, or worse.
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

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Any reason not to do you 5.0 and 5.5 as part of 1?
(I didn't mention it, but I typically point myself at landing area with my rears before moving on to something else)


Not really except that you want to focus on the most important things first...collision avoidance.


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How do you collapse slider and loosen chest strap with brakes in your hand without wobbling all over the place under canopy?


Keep you hands even. Besides, a little wobblin' in clear airspace is fun.
:D:D;)
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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Right.
Students are taught that after deployment,look up at the canopy,check altitude, unstow brakes and do CCC while watching the canopy to look for any problems,then check air space,locate DZ and fly to holding area.
The only difference for an experienced skydiver would be to use rear risers to steer quickly away from potential collisions immediately after full inflation is achieved.
If someone can't take care of the slider,flip up their vizor,undo booties,shut off camera with their canopy in full flight,then maybe they shouldn't be flying that canopy.
If there is a problem with plan A,then plan B should be implemented while altitude is plentiful,because you may need to fix plan B if it doesn't work as planned,
since plan B is just another parachute.

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We seem to agree on everything but this:

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Once I have clear air I collapse the slider and pull it past the toggles. If you are putting the slider behind your head you should not unstow you brakes first in my opinion. This puts you in full flight with way more forward speed, and I don't think that is appropriate while you are distracted by your housekeeping chores. It is also much harder to get the slide properly past both toggles and behind your head if you unstow them first.



This vid demonstrates the major problem with pulling the slider over stowed toggles. I wouldn't want anyone to do that to themselves, regardless of experience and/or canopy size. And of course, YMMV.

Distraction? Only if you let it be, Only if you are not doing basic canopy flight procedure...clear your air space, keep your head on a swivel.

Hard to do should, IMO, be the last consideration....safety first, as always.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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1. Grab rear risers and check for traffic, being prepared to turn quickly if I need to
2. Check altitude
3. Unstow brakes
4. Controllability check
5.0 Check location
5.5. Take up flight path
6. Misc housekeeping.



Quote

This is incorrect.

If your housekeeping includes pulling your slider past your toggles, you do not want to do that with the brakes unstowed. It makes the job 100% more difficult, it takes longer and requires more attention, all the while you're moving though the sky at a much higher speed.



To say this is incorrect is incorrect but then YMMV.
You emphasize how hard it is. One should never sacrifice safety for ease-of-use. And I disagree totally with your 100% assessment.

Again..basic canopy flight procedure as mentioned to Doug above.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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I cringe to think about a new jumper waiting until pattern to unstow their brakes only to find out that they have a knotted control line, or worse.



Pretty scary, huh?
I've heard AFFIs say that to youngsters.
[:/]
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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Honestly I didn't think of pulling the fired toggle (I will now),


Hmmmmm. basic EPs.

Two similar situations. The similarity is that one brake has been released and the other hasn't.

Premature Brake Release -
Release both brakes

Stuck Toggle -
Stop the turn (using the released toggle)
Work on releasing the stuck toggle.

Do we need to mention including the basics....altitude awareness, airspace checks, decision altitude, etc?
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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>You're flying an unknown entity until you've done EVERYTHING in your flight checks.
>I used to leave my canopy in half brakes and float back to the dz for no particular
>reason

There's no problem in doing that PROVIDED that the jumper releases their brakes at an altitude they can still cut away if they need to.

I was once jumping a new (very small) canopy on a no wind day and opened up to discover a stuck brake line. I was not comfortable trying a rear riser landing on a new canopy in no wind, so I decided to chop it if I couldn't clear it. I pointed the canopy back to the DZ and spent the next 20 seconds or so trying to clear the brake line. At 2000 feet I gave up and chopped.

Note that an option on a larger canopy might have been a rear riser landing, or a braked landing with a good PLF.

The biggest risk in a situation like that is that you lose track of altitude (because you're messing with the brakes, or you get caught up in trying to glide back or whatever) and find yourself at a low altitude without making sure you have a landable canopy - and landable generally means "released brakes."

IF anyone is determined to fly their canopy to a lower altitude without releasing the brakes, make sure you are OK with either landing your canopy without releasing the brakes or landing it with one brake released (but held at half flare) and the other one still stowed.

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Surely you can't do that if you unstow your brakes first? It's going to put you on full drive with no hands in toggles...



Sure you can! It's easier, and safer, than having to be so, so careful about accidentally unstowing that toggle and maybe tangling the line excess!

Quote

I do buy into the argument that pulling the slider down improves visibility and since I do alot of 8 way and bigger that is a bonus.


Personally, I've never understood this because I've never noticed it with the slider above the risers. Oh, well.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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IF anyone is determined to fly their canopy to a lower altitude without releasing the brakes, make sure you are OK with either landing your canopy without releasing the brakes or landing it with one brake released (but held at half flare) and the other one still stowed.



Excellent, excellent point.

That's why they pay you the big bucks.
;)
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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Students are taught that after deployment,look up at the canopy,check altitude, unstow brakes and do CCC while watching the canopy to look for any problems,then check air space,locate DZ and fly to holding area.



Ummmm, no, students are NOT taught that these days. If you were taught that way, you will want to re-think that procedure. Your primary concern is collision avoidance.

If you know of people teaching that way, please correct them. They are creating skydiving safety hazards and don't realize it.



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The only difference for an experienced skydiver would be to use rear risers to steer quickly away from potential collisions immediately after full inflation is achieved.


I disagree, Rear risers are for everybody. Rear riser flight control is taught in student training.

Was it NOT taught to you?
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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toolbox

Right.
Students are taught that after deployment,look up at the canopy,check altitude, unstow brakes and do CCC while watching the canopy to look for any problems,then check air space,locate DZ and fly to holding area.
The only difference for an experienced skydiver would be to use rear risers to steer quickly away from potential collisions immediately after full inflation is achieved.
If someone can't take care of the slider,flip up their vizor,undo booties,shut off camera with their canopy in full flight,then maybe they shouldn't be flying that canopy.



We aren't AFF students any more, we are students of the sport and our knowledge is supposed to progress.

If you are bringing your slider past your toggles and behind your head it makes zero sense to do that with the canopy if full flight.

Here is a simple quiz.

Question 1: A square canopy flies with more forward speed with:
a. stowed brakes
b. released brakes in full flight.

Question 2: Closing speeds between two skydivers on opposing flight paths increases as the canopies speed increases:
a. True
b. False

Question 3: Time available to react to a possible collision decreases as closing speeds increase:
a. True
b. False


I am not trying to over simplify this but it is rather simple.

If you are going to take your slider past your toggles you are going to have to take your hands out of your toggles, period. This does not change if your brakes remain stowed, or are released to full flight.

That means at that given moment you will need to respond to flying towards another jumper with your rear risers.

Having your brakes stowed gives your more time to react. Slower flight is better until you have finished all of your chores.

A canopy will avoid a collision course quite well using rear risers with brakes set, but more importantly it is moving through the 3d sky slower, in a more controlled manner.

It doesn't change the fact that you need to avoid other canopies, and do a full control check before going through your hard deck. It is about flying the smarter way while your are doing everything in between!
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

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You emphasize how hard it is. One should never sacrifice safety for ease-of-use. And I disagree totally with your 100% assessment.



No, you should not sacrifice safety for ease of use. The point is that it's safer to pull your slider over your toggles while they are stowed. They are held tight to the risers, and your forward speed and descent rate during the process will be lowered.

I'm not sure of your experience with this, but I have been pulling my slider past my toggles for 1000's of jumps. I have also had the occasion to do the same (or attempt to do the same) in the wake of a brake fire on opening. I unstowed the other brake to get the canopy under control, and then proceeded with my 'normal' routine, and it was not a good situation.

Let's face it, there is no requirement to pull your slider down past your toggles. If a jumper is going to adopt the practice, they need to be experienced and aware enough to do it properly (before unstowing the brakes) and still maintain the same margin of safety as someone who is not pulling their slider down. The way to do that is to check your canopy as much as possible without unstowing the toggles, then handle your slider, and then complete your controlabity check, all above your hard deck.

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Let's face it, there is no requirement to pull your slider down past your toggles. If a jumper is going to adopt the practice, they need to be experienced and aware enough to do it properly



I have a question about grommet size and pulling your slider past your toggle stows, but I created a thread in "Gear and Rigging" to keep this thread from drifting more than it already has.

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davelepka

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1. Grab rear risers and check for traffic, being prepared to turn quickly if I need to
2. Check altitude
3. Unstow brakes
4. Controllability check
5.0 Check location
5.5. Take up flight path
6. Misc housekeeping.



This is incorrect.



Dave, thank you for your detailed posting. I too have been doing this. I put bumpers on my risers to stop this happening, but sometimes the slider would still slip past. I thought the solution was just to be more care, but it looks like I just need to change my procedures.

To be honest, with 20+ people in the air at the same time I find the biggest thing I worry about after opening is collisions. I find my self checking for a square canopy and moving my hands up to the rears to be ready to turn as almost a single action.

Thanks again for posting

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If you are bringing your slider past your toggles and behind your head it makes zero sense to do that with the canopy if full flight.


Then you do not understand the problem highlighted in this vid....accidentally dislodging a toggle and creating an unnecessary mal.


Quote

If you are going to take your slider past your toggles you are going to have to take your hands out of your toggles, period.


No, not a requirement to drop the toggles.

Quote

Having your brakes stowed gives your more time to react.


See. Here's is where our difference opinion lies. I have to give the guy credit for being able to perform the very basic canopy flight requirement of observing the sky around you and avoiding collisions.

You, and Dave, I see, are basing your entire argument on the jumper's failure to clear his airspace and keep his head on a swivel.

If you are NOT going to be aware of your surroundings, then you have a decision to make - is it going to be better for you to be flying slower while concentrating on this toggle OR is it going to be more of a danger of putting myself into a spin by dislodging a toggle.
YMMV

At that point all bets are off...you're setting yourself up to get hosed either way.


Quote

]A canopy will avoid a collision course quite well using rear risers with brakes set,


Indeed, As well as with brakes released.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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If a jumper is going to adopt the practice, they need to be experienced and aware enough to do it properly (before unstowing the brakes) and still maintain the same margin of safety as someone who is not pulling their slider down.

Well, OK...you backed off the easy/safety...good for that at least.

I'm recommending, and I'm teaching controllability first, housekeeping second. YMMV.

It doesn't make sense to screw up a potentially good canopy by dislodging a toggle. YMMV

If you are not confident in your ability to clear your airspace and keep your head on a swivel, then doing slider first or controllability first matters not. Either way you're exposing yourself to potential problems.

If you are worried about slow flight because of jumpers close to you, then dislodging a toggle at that point is even worse....now you're spinning with no control over who you are going to hit or who is going to hit you...at a high rate of speed.
YMMV

If you are willing to delay your discovery of a canopy problem for a slider, then by all means, go for it.
YMMV

Sorry, big guy, I will NOT be telling a young jumper to do those things.


Note:
My replies here were directed at the younger jumpers, not to you old farts.
:D

Disclaimer:
You experienced guys do as you please...just like the vid. Hence, the YMMV
:P

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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