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strop45

A first look at a no pull cypres save

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jty2007

Fairly new jumper here ... so OP said his decision to cutaway with his brake fire was a bad one. I get that you don't want to risk a main-reserve entanglement; however, isn't NOT cutting away a spinning main (no matter what altitude) more dangerous than a low cutaway? I'd like to know that for EP knowledge.



I'm not sure you really do understand how his decision "was a bad one". Can you elaborate on how you think that ties in with an entanglement?

There's a point in time (altitude) where you are going to splat no matter what you do. The question is do you want to splat with some material over your head slowing you down some....or not.?
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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100%
If for whatever reason I end up with a screwed up main below 1,000 feet,I personally would not cut away,but would activate the reserve to get more fabric out.
I do not have a skyhook,but even if I did, I would not want to bet my life on it giving me a fully functional reserve below 1,000 feet either.
I could be wrong,but I believe the skyhook is designed to help get the reserve to line stretch faster,but doesn't guarantee the reserve will be fully inflated at line stretch.
The skyhook sounds like a great backup but still no guarantee,since there are no guarantees,but rather there are disclaimers in this sport.

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Would be great if more people took this much trouble to help others getting into the same situations they found themselves in

I have questioned an experienced jumper why they do not do control checks. Person in question just unstowed breaks and carved a little left and right to check all is good. This is going to be at the back of my mind before getting into bad habits like that

I'v skipped control checks on one jump with a very long spot where I just made it back to turn upwind and land. Coach on the jump left his brakes stowed till final to get back, scary to think what could have happened if he ran into trouble at that point

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popsjumper


I'm not sure you really do understand how his decision "was a bad one". Can you elaborate on how you think that ties in with an entanglement?

There's a point in time (altitude) where you are going to splat no matter what you do. The question is do you want to splat with some material over your head slowing you down some....or not.?



The way I understand it, the decision to cutaway would have been a bad one due to the combination of factors: 1) loosened chest strap altering the "location" of handles, and 2) busted decision altitude.

I think a judgement mistake would have occurred in assuming that 1) his cypres would definitely fire (with a 2.2 WL spiraling like that, maybe, I don't know) and that 2) if a cypres fire DID happen without first cutting away, that it would entangle the main and lead to a worse situation.

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It's a bummer that cypress doesn't have the ability to easily down load information. They can do it at ssk but it's not normally bothered with except in fatalities. We've been doing a lot of work with vigil and one of the cool things about it is the way you can pull some really good data out of it from the last jump. We've been using one as just a data recorder and it's cool to see the aborts and saves on our rockets from the pressure transduicer. We can get similar data from the GPS and INU but we're looking at incorporating it live into system as an active AAD.

Point is that you might be able to get hard data points on the altitude of the activation and the speed or lack there of of the opening. If the cypress hasn't been jumped sence then you might give them a call. They might still be able to pull the data for you. I for one would be interested in seeing those numbers.

Lee
Lee
[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com

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pchapman


Guess the smooth soft opening of the Optimum wasn't for him, as it never got out of its snivel (or at least not appreciably so) by the time he impacted. About 2 1/2 seconds from being pulled vertical, to impact. Barely a save.



Your comment got me thinking of a question I asked about the Optimum reserve a few years ago. It opens softer, but is it slower? Almost every response I got seemed to indicate that I was overthinking it and the Optimum opening distance would still be within TSO 300ft. Thread link below.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=4060266;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

In this guy's two cutaway videos, his Optimum does seem to snivel a lot. Is this video evidence that a soft opening reserve unecessarily diminishes the gear's margin of safety? Why would a soft opening reserve ever be a valuable attribute? As long as it doesn't damage you in a terminal opening faster is better. AAD fires leave almost no margin for error and opening speed could be the difference between life and death.

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davelepka


The other side of this story is to keep flying the canopy. If the jumper in the video had applied opposite toggle (in this case, to the right) the canopy would have flown straight (and at a brakes-stowed speed). It would have given the jumper far more time and altitude to work the problem or decide to cutaway.


I was wondering about that. If you pause the video at 1:51, it appears as though he was trying to give some right toggle input to counter the spin. Looks like it just wasn’t enough to be effective. You can see the tail deflection on the right side isn’t as much as the left side. Then the very next second, we see the effort abandoned as his right toggle is all the way up at the guide ring.

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The way I understand it, the decision to cutaway would have been a bad one due to the combination of factors: 1) loosened chest strap altering the "location" of handles, and 2) busted decision altitude.


Loosened chest strap has nothing to do with EPs other than if you are going to loosen your strap, then knowing the likely locations of your handles is mandatory. Best bet is to LOOK for your handles before you start grabbing!

I don't know what his decision altitude is.

Quote

I think a judgement mistake would have occurred in assuming that 1) his cypres would definitely fire (with a 2.2 WL spiraling like that, maybe, I don't know) and that 2) if a cypres fire DID happen without first cutting away, that it would entangle the main and lead to a worse situation.



Questions:
Do you think he would have survived as well had he NOT cutaway?

Given that an entanglement is not guaranteed, do you think he would have survived as well had he simply deployed his reserve?
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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Glad you made it okay, thanks for sharing your experience!

I had a question for the group:
What is the ideal sequence of stuff to do after canopy opens?

My sequence is:
1. Grab rear risers and check for traffic, being prepared to turn quickly if I need to
2. Collapse slider
3. Check altitude
4. Loosen chest strap
5. Open visor
6. Turn off camera
7. Unstow brakes
8. Controllability check

I find it difficult to collapse slider or loosen my chest strap with my brakes unstowed - I'm bobbing all over the sky and not able to keep as much awareness on traffic around me.

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popsjumper

Quote

The way I understand it, the decision to cutaway would have been a bad one due to the combination of factors: 1) loosened chest strap altering the "location" of handles, and 2) busted decision altitude.


Loosened chest strap has nothing to do with EPs other than if you are going to loosen your strap, then knowing the likely locations of your handles is mandatory. Best bet is to LOOK for your handles before you start grabbing!

I don't know what his decision altitude is.

Quote

I think a judgement mistake would have occurred in assuming that 1) his cypres would definitely fire (with a 2.2 WL spiraling like that, maybe, I don't know) and that 2) if a cypres fire DID happen without first cutting away, that it would entangle the main and lead to a worse situation.



Questions:
Do you think he would have survived as well had he NOT cutaway?

Given that an entanglement is not guaranteed, do you think he would have survived as well had he simply deployed his reserve?




Am I missing something? Why not just pull down the fired brake to stop the spin.










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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vanessalh

Glad you made it okay, thanks for sharing your experience!

I had a question for the group:
What is the ideal sequence of stuff to do after canopy opens?

My sequence is:
1. Grab rear risers and check for traffic, being prepared to turn quickly if I need to
2. Collapse slider
3. Check altitude
4. Loosen chest strap
5. Open visor
6. Turn off camera
7. Unstow brakes
8. Controllability check

I find it difficult to collapse slider or loosen my chest strap with my brakes unstowed - I'm bobbing all over the sky and not able to keep as much awareness on traffic around me.



Your procedure is what caused this problem in the first place....screwing with the slider before the brakes.

Proper sequence:

1. Grab rear risers and check for traffic, being prepared to turn quickly if I need to
2. Check altitude
3. Unstow brakes
4. Controllability check
5.0 Check location
5.5. Take up flight path
6. Misc housekeeping.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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Am I missing something? Why not just pull down the fired brake to stop the spin.



The post you quoted was talking about what to do after the problem was already created and it being too late to fix it properly.

Yes, your concern was addressed earlier about mishandling EPs...even though he created the emergency himself.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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popsjumper

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Am I missing something? Why not just pull down the fired brake to stop the spin.



The post you quoted was talking about what to do after the problem was already created and it being too late to fix it properly.

Yes, your concern was addressed earlier about mishandling EPs...even though he created the emergency himself.




I know...that's what I'm saying - you can easily give yourself more time to deal. You get to think not just react if you slow the decent rate.










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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Thanks, makes sense.

Any reason not to do you 5.0 and 5.5 as part of 1? (I didn't mention it, but I typically point myself at landing area with my rears before moving on to something else)

How do you collapse slider and loosen chest strap with brakes in your hand without wobbling all over the place under canopy?

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Your procedure is what caused this problem in the first place....screwing with the slider before the brakes.

Proper sequence:

1. Grab rear risers and check for traffic, being prepared to turn quickly if I need to
2. Check altitude
3. Unstow brakes
4. Controllability check
5.0 Check location
5.5. Take up flight path
6. Misc housekeeping.



Thanks Pops point well received. and thanks for the detailed response in the PM.

Leave the housekeeping until last.

Should be easy enough to remember its the same as in my regular life.

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vanessalh

Thanks, makes sense.

Any reason not to do you 5.0 and 5.5 as part of 1? (I didn't mention it, but I typically point myself at landing area with my rears before moving on to something else)

How do you collapse slider and loosen chest strap with brakes in your hand without wobbling all over the place under canopy?



Granted I don't loosen chest strap or collapse a slider, but the little housekeeping I do (putting up visor, etc) I do with brakes unstowed and not in my hands clearing the airspace before each task. If there's a reason for not doing that then let me know.

I also unstow the brakes almost immediately after it's inflated as I check for traffic, but I'll keep in mind checking the airspace and using rears first for next jump.

To popsjumper from earlier, his description says he blew through his hard deck whatever it was before he noticed the ground. I suppose you don't really know how you're going to react in that situation until you're there.

For me at 1000ft it's fabric, hope, and ask why the hell I'm there. Honestly I didn't think of pulling the fired toggle (I will now), but his biggest mistake to me was just altitude awareness. In this case, it could've bought him more altitude to find his reserve handle.

If he had been able to find his reserve handle below 1000ft (his account sounds like he made the decision to cutaway knowing he couldn't) to me it's just a preference at that point. Although is there something to be said here for risk of entanglement being higher due to the spiral and fired toggle?

Trying to learn a bit from this, so if I'm wrong anywhere by all means let me know. I could use any extra review/information I can get before I get back current.
well...I was going skydiving anyway. let's go.
Earn your pancakes.

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toolbox

100%
If for whatever reason I end up with a screwed up main below 1,000 feet,I personally would not cut away,but would activate the reserve to get more fabric out.
I do not have a skyhook,but even if I did, I would not want to bet my life on it giving me a fully functional reserve below 1,000 feet either.
I could be wrong,but I believe the skyhook is designed to help get the reserve to line stretch faster,but doesn't guarantee the reserve will be fully inflated at line stretch.
The skyhook sounds like a great backup but still no guarantee,since there are no guarantees,but rather there are disclaimers in this sport.



The 1000ft no cutaway is what I was taught. I still firmly believe in it.

The problem is with skyhooks and the likes, people are now giving very 'woolly' on the issue and I've met at least 1 instructor who is telling people its ok to chop at 300ft provided they have a skyhook.
Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

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popsjumper

***Glad you made it okay, thanks for sharing your experience!

I had a question for the group:
What is the ideal sequence of stuff to do after canopy opens?

My sequence is:
1. Grab rear risers and check for traffic, being prepared to turn quickly if I need to
2. Collapse slider
3. Check altitude
4. Loosen chest strap
5. Open visor
6. Turn off camera
7. Unstow brakes
8. Controllability check

I find it difficult to collapse slider or loosen my chest strap with my brakes unstowed - I'm bobbing all over the sky and not able to keep as much awareness on traffic around me.



Your procedure is what caused this problem in the first place....screwing with the slider before the brakes.

Proper sequence:

1. Grab rear risers and check for traffic, being prepared to turn quickly if I need to
2. Check altitude
3. Unstow brakes
4. Controllability check
5.0 Check location
5.5. Take up flight path
6. Misc housekeeping.

Andy, since canopies no longer have slider stops (I'm removing mine tomorrow, as they are worn out). It appears the common thing is to pull your slider BELOW your brakes.

Surely you can't do that if you unstow your brakes first? It's going to put you on full drive with no hands in toggles...

DISCLAIMER - I don't know at this point if I will pull the slider down past toggles, but from tomorrow it will be possible. At my wingloading I'm not interested in improved aerodynamics. I do buy into the argument that pulling the slider down improves visibility and since I do alot of 8 way and bigger that is a bonus.
Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

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