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strop45

A first look at a no pull cypres save

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Good find.

I didn't check the video closely, but once he had the toggle popped from pulling the slider down, it was about 15 seconds and 6 revolutions under a 2.2 wing load canopy, before he chopped. Distracted by the task at hand!

Once again a chop with a very widely spread chest strap made it harder to find handles. He wrote that his camera wings were disconnected, but that the flapping was an issue.

Guess the smooth soft opening of the Optimum wasn't for him, as it never got out of its snivel (or at least not appreciably so) by the time he impacted. About 2 1/2 seconds from being pulled vertical, to impact. Barely a save.

[Edit: Even once the slider is on the links it'll take a bit of time for the canopy to slow to a normal descent rate. His reserve opening on his other video of a cutaway that worked, from a similar spinning mal, showed an opening that was a bit faster.]

At least he looked down and videoed the ground coming up, unlike the dead guy in the Russian low pull video recently, who was looking up during his snivel.:S

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It might have been close, but in theory he was probably slightly sub terminal when the cypres fired (it fires when you accelerate to 78 in that situation as I remember). That might account for the slower opening.

I'm glad he shared the video, and I hope others learn from it.

Now- on with the 200 replies about how he should have done this, or shouldn't have done that. ;)

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Zlew

(it fires when you accelerate to 78 in that situation as I remember). That might account for the slower opening.



It might take less distance though. Who knows. The more important point one can make is that depending on his speed in the spiral dive, the Cypres may or may not have hit the firing speed at 750 ft, so we don't know exactly what reserve opening distance is involved...

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Seems like an extremely slow reserve opening. It appears he reaches line stretch when his feet swing upwards. If the standard is 3 seconds it misses by a long shot.
Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

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airdvr

By my count the snivel was about 2.5 seconds. I'm thinking 750 feet is too close...no room for a snivelly reserve.



Can't be sure based on the video, but from his notes, and what I can put together, I think his cypres fired by speed, not altitude. If he chopped around 800, he had to accelerate for a period of time from whatever speed he was spinning at to 78, and then cypres would have fired. He thinks cypres fired around 600 feet, may have been lower and it was also sub terminal which can take longer to get to line stretch and make for a slower opening.

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Zlew

Now- on with the 200 replies about how he should have done this, or shouldn't have done that. ;)



Absolutely and rightfully so!

For the young jumpers out there, this vid is a good demonstration on:

1. knowing your EPs when your canopy turns into a piece of crap,
2. making intelligent decisions about what you are going to do after your canopy opens nicely
3. the importance of altitude awareness


1.
- What EP procedure do you practice, 1-handed or 2-handed?
- What do you do for any premature break release?
- If the canopy opens properly, when should you release the brakes?
- If you have a fixable problem with your main, what prime piece of information do you need as part of your decision tree?
- If you find it necessary to breakaway, what do you do to ensure that you can locate/use the reserve deployment handle?

2.
- What is your primary and secondary determinations after deployment of a canopy?
- What is the proper sequence of events for doing under-canopy housekeeping?
- What specific housekeeping events are required for you right now?

3.
- After deployment, when should you check your altitude?
- Why is altitude awareness important in emergency situations?
- What is the proper way to measure time in an emergency situation?
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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airdvr

By my count the snivel was about 2.5 seconds. I'm thinking 750 feet is too close...no room for a snivelly reserve.


I couldn't tell when to start counting.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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>If the standard is 3 seconds it misses by a long shot.

Since when is it that a reserve should be expected to be fully open and be controllable within 3 seconds?
Hell there is no guarantee that any parachute will open properly at all,even a properly packed reserve.
Having an AAD open your container at 750 feet is an absolute last ditch chance at life,and heavy emphasis on the chance part.

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toolbox

>If the standard is 3 seconds it misses by a long shot.

Since when is it that a reserve should be expected to be fully open and be controllable within 3 seconds?
Hell there is no guarantee that any parachute will open properly at all,even a properly packed reserve.
Having an AAD open your container at 750 feet is an absolute last ditch chance at life,and heavy emphasis on the chance part.



Don't be a tool...tool. The industry standard is 3 seconds. I'll find it over in the Z Hills double fatality thread.

Here it is...from John Sherman...There is a misunderstanding among some of the manufacturers as to the requirement of the cutaway tests. I believe that some may have used this misunderstanding for their certification. It has to do with cutaways. With an RSL, which is required on half of the tests, you must deploy within 3 second or 300 feet maximum. Without the RSL you may fall no more than 2 seconds after release before activating the ripcord at which time the reserve must deploy in 3 seconds or 300 feet from pack opening altitude. This 2 additional seconds gives time for more Dynamic Pressure to build up and will produce a faster opening. So be it, it still requires the opening to occur within 300 feet from activation. Some have interpreted this as allowing 5 seconds for the deployment. I know this as several have told me it was their belief. How many manufacturers have published the videos of these tests? The answer is “ONE”. One out of how many, 10 or 12? And you are still buying their equipment?
Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

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Keep in mind that reserves are generally tested:

-after cutaways (almost zero airspeed)
-at terminal (high speed)

The reefing system is designed to open quickly at low speeds (low pressure on the slider = speedier opening) and open survivably at high speeds (high pressure on slider = delayed opening.) Although those two openings are very different in TIME they are somewhat closer in DISTANCE because the speedy opening occurs at the lower speed.

However on speeds in between you may well see a shorter or longer distance than either one of those extremes. I don't know of any manufacturers who tests their reserves/containers at cutaway speeds, 20mph, 40mph, 60mph, 80mph, 100mph etc.

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To the skydiver in the video and the full story and video on his website, glad you are still with us and thanks so much for taking the time to document everything! Damn, I was puckered during that video...

To the OP, thanks for sharing, priceless stuff!

To Pops, as is typical, thanks for the followup and I'll jump in as a young jumper (well at least experience wise) and share my story followed by answering your points.

Short story, in Sebastian in February of this year I ended an amazing week jumping with just a great group of people. If you've never experienced Sebastian, get on it, you'll be glad you did... Long story short, I leave my slider open and typically just focus on flying in for landing. I got the idea to start loosening my chest strap, collapsing my slider, and tucking it behind my head then release my brakes, and set up for landing.

I had been doing this, for about 10 jumps, no problem, when suddenly, my slider wouldn't stay behind my head. So, on approach, three times I don't complete all my tasks, because I'm screwing with the slider which keeps popping up.

Too make matters worse? Good strong headwind. Long story short? I missed turning in on final, and ended up landing out, crosswind (damn strong winds) in the road. I managed to get banged up but nothing requiring hospitalization. Bruised ego more than anything but I can say this. It got damn hairy, damn quick, when I released the brakes, and got ZERO forward penetration into the dz. I got distracted, instead of turning in on final when I was supposed to, which was about 30 seconds prior to the shit hitting the fan.

At that point I looked to my right, power lines, not happening, looked straight forward, fence and at this descent rate? I'd smack that puppy head on, NOT HAPPENING. Lastly, now at about a hundred feet I look to my left, ROAD and realize, that's the best I got....

Now, this story isn't NO WHERE near as scary as the OP however I can say, for the guy in the saddle? I was DAMN scared. I realized I had made just a couple tiny fundamental mistakes, and in a few seconds would be paying for it.

Now, back to your post Pops.

2. Turning off cameras, collapsing / stowing sliders, widening chest straps, ANYTHING that keeps you from your control check, belongs at the end of the order. Is it THERE, is it Square and Steerable? As this event shows, you aren't done until that point.

Had that been done immediately, the skydiver in this incident would've released his brakes at approximately 1:05 which would've given him more time to cutaway, and subsequently find his reserve handle.

There was approximately forty seconds elapsed before he then collapses his slider, then releases brakes. This is significantly lower than his opening altitude.

That extra time, may have made all the difference.

I can't even recall, how many times I've gotten "distracted" prior to doing all control checks, etc... I can tell you about the one in Sebastian however and that could've turned out a HELL OF A LOT WORSE.

2. I'd say primary duty upon opening is verifying it's open, square, release brakes, steer right, steer left, verify flare. Of course that also includes a visual noting slider fully down, all cells inflated, lines are orderly, etc.... The funny thing is this task, can be done in thirty/forty seconds or less.

If we procrastinate, and say use rear risers to point us towards the dz, etc... while we mess around with other things. We could find ourselves releasing the brakes and dealing with a mess, well below our level of comfort.

Makes the hair stand up on your neck.

Everything after that is gravy, none of it required to get us in safe and in one piece.

I'll leave the rest answered by others Pops. I'll just say these two things hit hard for me and I'm a hundred percent committed to get the housekeeping items in the correct order and executing them flawlessly every jump.

Good teaching sir, keep it up. It is all about thought process, training and execution.


Jack

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I wouldn't bet my life on a reserve being fully open and controllable within 3 seconds.
A reserve is just another parachute,and can be subject to slow openings or fast hard openings, just like a main can be.
I've had a few reserve rides,and from my personal experience they usually open quickly and on heading,but sometimes they snivel,open in linetwist,or open spinning with tension knots.
There are no guarantees that any parachute will always open as planned,thats all I'm saying.

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I wouldn't bet my life on a reserve being fully open and controllable within 3 seconds



You shouldn't.

What you should do is complete your controlability test above your hard deck. Most jumpers don't do the 'student' controlability test of left 360, right 360, and flare, but the truth is that you don't know that you have a controlable canopy until after you release your brakes. Just because it's open and flying straight does not mean that the brakes will release clean. Sure, you could land a canopy with the brakes stowed, but you don't know there's a problem until after you try to unstow them and one releases clean, and the other not so much.

The idea is to unstow your brakes and confirm that all is well somewhat above your hard deck. Give yourself room to have a problem and attempt to resolve it before you reach your hard deck. If you get there without a controlable canopy, perform your EPs.

The other side of this story is to keep flying the canopy. If the jumper in the video had applied opposite toggle (in this case, to the right) the canopy would have flown straight (and at a brakes-stowed speed). It would have given the jumper far more time and altitude to work the problem or decide to cutaway.

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Fairly new jumper here ... so OP said his decision to cutaway with his brake fire was a bad one. I get that you don't want to risk a main-reserve entanglement; however, isn't NOT cutting away a spinning main (no matter what altitude) more dangerous than a low cutaway? I'd like to know that for EP knowledge.

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>isn't NOT cutting away a spinning main (no matter what altitude) more dangerous than a low cutaway?

Depends. If you will impact before your reserve opens, then no, cutting away is worse. You are much better off landing under two parachutes than none. You are even better off landing under a big ball of twisted shit than under nothing.

That being said, it is better overall to not get into that situation to begin with, and allow enough altitude to cut away and get your reserve open.

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You got it Jack!
Good stuff!
:)
There's more as you noted but you got the canopy check and add in there looking for traffic as you're checking the canopy.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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