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hikeat

Mr Bill Death Strap

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I have a set of old risers, a couple D rings, and what is probably a really bad idea. I have attached a crude drawing of what I am thinking of rigging up. Each end of the strap would be connected to a D ring on the jumpers' chest straps. The strand of dacron is to make the strap weaker than the jumpers' chest straps and to provide a fail safe in the unlikely event that both three rings fail to release the dacron can be cut with a hook knife. I would love to hear from those who have tried such craziness and I am looking forward to the negative comments ie: you're going to die, how can you be this stupid, why are you such a pussy that you can't just hold on, etc. Flame on!

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When I first looked at this I had down plane in my head. A very bad idea for that. Still called death straps while used by some demo teams over the years. With deadman releases, not handles.

Then I reread the title!!!:o

Mr. Bill connected is called TANDEM. And needs tandem equipment. I watched two idiots do it with a tandem rig and carabiners back in the 90's. At least they had close to the right equipment. STILL a bad idea as they found out. They couldn't take enough load off the carabiners to open and unhook them until they were a mile down wind from the DZ.

In what world is a chest strap, a single three ring, or a single riser designed to take opening shock? That 900lb dacron ought to be 10 lb break tape. Then it would STILL be a bad idea.

I'll give you your request. IF you even think this is worth discussing the first skydiving 'invention' you actually build and jump will kill you.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

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In what world is a chest strap, a single three ring, or a single riser designed to take opening shock? That 900lb dacron ought to be 10 lb break tape. Then it would STILL be a bad idea.



I realize that none of these things are meant to take opening shock. Mr Bill would still be holding on to sluggo, the idea is to take some load off Mr Bill's arms. The only failure of equipment that would be of major consequence would be the chest strap. I know that chest straps are not rated to withstand opening shock, which is why I wanted to have a weak point in the death strap. Do you really think that the webbing or the hardware for a chest strap would break before a single strand of 900 lb dacron? I could step down to 550 cord, but 10 lb break cord would be pointless.

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I'll give you your request. IF you even think this is worth discussing the first skydiving 'invention' you actually build and jump will kill you.



I appreciate that. :P

I added a reinforced attachment point to a reserve that I used to jump a bridge over water. I load tested it and had a friend who is a rigger look at it, worked just fine. I've also patched my BASE canopy twice. This is not my first attempt at diy rigging, and I doubt that I would be "inventing" anything, as I'm sure it's been done.

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Oh, this brings back sweet memories of near death expereances.

I've done a number of things like this. Mostly we used things like this for CRW. We found a number of different ways to try to kill our selves under canopy with such devices. I am not advocating but god damn it's fun. Chest strap? No there are better places to load.

Opening shock... yes we've done things like this. Remember it's more about airspeed then weight. Could you break thing if you tried hard enough? Shure. But if you're intelligent... Again I'm not saying it's a good idea but we did get away with it. As an example what we did was to do a low speed horizontal opening right out of the plane. Then he hooked up a rope. cut away and actually repelled down 30 ft and we transferred him to another canopy so that he was doing a mister bill with him, we were afraid of the opening at such a high wing loading with the second canopy, and rapped right off the end of the rope. They just sank away with the higher wing loading. That VX sure flew fast at over 5:1.

Good times and dumb stories. I'm surprised we're still alive. Wait, most of the people I knew are dead. I guess that could be an object lessen.

Lee
Lee
[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com

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if you have sluggo cross his legs and bend at the waist it keeps mr.bill from sliding down and off from deployment. after sluggo pitches he can also grab ahold of mr.bill to help with the opening shock. here is my one and only mr.bill it went perfect!!!
im trying to figure out how to do it with a wingsuit now!
http://youtu.be/IGAeelicVdg
i tried to clickyfy but i suck at it.
Flock University FWC / ZFlock
B.A.S.E. 1580
Aussie BASE 121

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1) Chest straps (including stitching and hardware) will likely sustain damage before the "weak link" fails.

2) When a line breaks under 1000+ lb load, you do not want to be anywhere near it; you absolutely do not want it under your chin.

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hikeat

I have a set of old risers, a couple D rings, and what is probably a really bad idea. I have attached a crude drawing of what I am thinking of rigging up. Each end of the strap would be connected to a D ring on the jumpers' chest straps. The strand of dacron is to make the strap weaker than the jumpers' chest straps and to provide a fail safe in the unlikely event that both three rings fail to release the dacron can be cut with a hook knife. I would love to hear from those who have tried such craziness and I am looking forward to the negative comments ie: you're going to die, how can you be this stupid, why are you such a pussy that you can't just hold on, etc. Flame on!



You are right in one aspect. It's a really bad idea.

You also said:

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Do you really think that the webbing or the hardware for a chest strap would break before a single strand of 900 lb dacron?



Webbing? No. It's rated at 2500lbs (type 17)

But the hardware is only rated at 500lbs (1" quick fit adapter) So do I expect a part rated at 500lbs to fail before something rated at 900lbs?

You tell me. Better yet, do a static test. Tie a piece of 900lb Dacron to a properly routed chest strap. Secure the harness to something solid. Pull on the Dacron until something fails. personally, I'd use 2 cars with trailer hitches and an old student rig that's going in the garbage anyway.

If you choose to do this in the air, good luck. Have fun. Make sure you get video.

And make sure the executors of your will know that you wanted the video of this jump to be made public.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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1) Chest straps (including stitching and hardware) will likely sustain damage before the "weak link" fails.



You may be right, and if I decide to rig something, prob won't, I will use a more sturdy portion of the rig.

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2) When a line breaks under 1000+ lb load, you do not want to be anywhere near it; you absolutely do not want it under your chin.



Good point.

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But the hardware is only rated at 500lbs (1" quick fit adapter) So do I expect a part rated at 500lbs to fail before something rated at 900lbs?

You tell me. Better yet, do a static test. Tie a piece of 900lb Dacron to a properly routed chest strap. Secure the harness to something solid. Pull on the Dacron until something fails. personally, I'd use 2 cars with trailer hitches and an old student rig that's going in the garbage anyway.



I do have a chest strap from a rig that was cut off of me that is still attached to the main lift webs. That might be a fun experiment, but even if the dacron failed first, I'd still have to trust the rating over my experiment, since not all rigs use the same hardware or design.

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If you choose to do this in the air, good luck. Have fun. Make sure you get video.

And make sure the executors of your will know that you wanted the video of this jump to be made public.



10-4 :P

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hikeat

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But the hardware is only rated at 500lbs (1" quick fit adapter) So do I expect a part rated at 500lbs to fail before something rated at 900lbs?

You tell me. Better yet, do a static test. Tie a piece of 900lb Dacron to a properly routed chest strap. Secure the harness to something solid. Pull on the Dacron until something fails. personally, I'd use 2 cars with trailer hitches and an old student rig that's going in the garbage anyway.



I do have a chest strap from a rig that was cut off of me that is still attached to the main lift webs. That might be a fun experiment, but even if the dacron failed first, I'd still have to trust the rating over my experiment, since not all rigs use the same hardware or design.

***If you choose to do this in the air, good luck. Have fun. Make sure you get video.

And make sure the executors of your will know that you wanted the video of this jump to be made public.


10-4 :P

That bit makes me curious. Sounds like you have experiences of bad outcomes.

You design has several flaws I can see straight up.

Try not to learn the hard way.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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Let's see, chest strap destroyed when Sluggo dumps, then for other reason's sluggo then needs to cut away the main, and lastly I've never heard of a bad outcome from deploying without a chest strap securely in place (sarcasm). Have fun...
Rainbo
TheSpeedTriple - Speed is everything
"Blessed are those who can give without remembering, and take without forgetting."

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That bit makes me curious. Sounds like you have experiences of bad outcomes.


I broke my pelvis in a cliff strike.

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You design has several flaws I can see straight up.
Try not to learn the hard way.



I knew that the idea probably had some major flaws, other than the ones i saw, which is why I made this post. What are the several flaws that you can see straight up?

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chest strap destroyed when Sluggo dumps



I rather doubt this would happen, but if you would read before posting you would realize that I have already agreed with previous posters that I need to attach somewhere better than the chest strap.

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then for other reason's sluggo then needs to cut away the main



I'm guessing you mean entanglement due to unstable exit, or just a malfunction unrelated to the stunt?

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I've never heard of a bad outcome from deploying without a chest strap securely in place (sarcasm). Have fun...



Falling out of the rig is what you are looking for. :P:D

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I knew that the idea probably had some major flaws, other than the ones i saw, which is why I made this post. What are the several flaws that you can see straight up?



A couple have already been pointed out...the carabiner under load might be very difficult to manage, the chest strap attachment.

Not to mention the twin 3 ring setup, with two release handles, which gives two snag points which can release when you don't want it to.

The major flaw is the idea of attaching yourself to another jumper, period. Mr Bills work best with a sub terminal deployment, and your strap is definitely a hazard during that phase. A terminal deployment on a Mr Bill is most likely gonna result in injury or gear damage, and thats even if you manage to deploy in a good position.

Most problems with Mr Bills occur during the exit, and thats not a good place to be attached if it turns to custard on the exit. Its important to be able to quickly seperate and sort yourselves out.

Mr Bills were the rage for a short while back in the day, but interest in them waned fairly quickly once a few people had scared the crap out of themselves, or had spent time recovering from injury.

They are interesting from the POV of stimulating discussion about planning and executing something different on a jump, which can apply to things like flag jumps, pumpkin passes and the like.

I added a Mr Bill question to an Instructors exam I compiled, precisely to see how the candidates approached, analyzed and came up with solutions to such a jump.

The responses gave me, as an examiner, a very good insight of their thought processes, and thus their suitability to be an instructor. The post exam debrief of the question opened the eyes of a few as to the kinds of things they might come across in the future, when they are the ones responsible for the lives and safety of others.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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I have lots of experience with "death strap" devices. Mostly good, some pretty scary. A few things to remember:

They are call "death straps" for a reason. They are dangerous, unpredictable, and hard to get right.

The weakest link on your system needs to be designed in. You don't want to find out that your chest strap, torso, or neck are the weakest link, design in a overload failure point.

All systems work great on the ground under ideal conditions. Testing and analyzing the response under tension, with twists, and if misrigged need to be explored.

Have way more release handles than you ever could imagine.

The longer the strap is, the more likely it won't take any load until Mr.s Bill's arms/hands have failed, so he will be suspended by this. Where will it go on him as it comes to tension? Around his neck? Up his rear end? And where will it go on Sluggo? Through his crotch? Up his rear end?

And really worst case scenario: Death strap attached, deployment malfunction, Mr. Bill swinging at the bottom of the strap creating an even wilder ride, can't get strap off, drop hook knife, cutaway malfunction in desperation before someone blacks out, tumble because no one anticipated being back in freefall, still can't undo strap only now its wrapped around one of the two, reserve deployed in desperation, both jumpers suffered debilitating injuries on opening, and the reserve blows up.

Yes, I have a fertile imagination, but its the things you can't think of that will kill you.

top

PS. Work on slowing down the opening speed of the canopy and do it manually. It''s still dangerous, but more manageable.
Jump more, post less!

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Yes, I have a fertile imagination, but its the things you can't think of that will kill you.



When it comes to Mr Bills I don't think you need much imagination at all. The OP might want to watch this gem and decide if he would've wanted to be attached to it by his chest as well as his foot...


("Chop it! Chop it! Woooooooh chop it!":D:D)
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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Hi Craig,

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They are dangerous, unpredictable, and hard to get right.



I posted this story a number of years ago; but here it is again.

It was about 25 yrs ago at the old Scravel Hill dz near Albany, OR. There was this guy who always had some wild/crazy ideas on what to do on a jump. Let's call him Jumper #1.

So #1 comes up with this idea of using a large bungie cord & doing a Mr. Bill. He and Jumper #2 tie the cord to their rigs, with the plan that #2 will open after exit, #1 can do some bungie bouncing around thingies, then cut lose/untie it & deploy. Well, when #2 opened the bungie stretched to full stretch, where upon it seperated from #2. Sure enough, it recoiled at hit #1 square-on, knocking him out. He saw it coming and pulled ( which was the only thing that he did right on this jump ); then the vidiot came over grabbed his canopy and steered, the now unconscious #1 to the dz.

The video ended up on one of the scare-us tv shows.

It was very interesting to watch this whole play out while staying on the ground and out of trouble.

JerryBaumchen

PS) IIRC Jumper #1 was asked to never to come back to that dz again.

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I appreciate everyone's input. It was more of a whimsical idea and wondering if anyone had tried it, than a serious plan. I think you've provided me with enough information to confirm my suspicions that it would be way too risky to be worth it. I'll hold on to my extra risers and D rings for the next dumb idea. :P

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We don't need no stinking death straps! I'm the pilot.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eIuycowAo0
"Here's a good specimen of my own wisdom. Something is so, except when it isn't so."

Charles Fort, commenting on the many contradictions of astronomy

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