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divertech

Count for exit..best way?

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On exiting the plane as a group I got used to ready (guy counting shakes group from inside plain), set (we all crouch and get ready), go (well we go/jump), now that I'm jumping at different DZ's there seem to be a few different counting methods (swining legs etc), obviously it's all good if it works but what would be the "best" way?

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Personally, I always liked when we agreed on both the verbal and nonverbal concurrently. Operative word being "Agreed." If you go somewhere, always feel as though you can ask for an "Agreed-upon" count of..
Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

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I was taught that the person doing the count looks to make sure everyone is in position. Then:

Shake, shake, shake.

Ready (swing out)

Set (swing in)

Go (go)

For smaller groups (2 or 3) the shake is left out.
From a 182 where everyone is hanging off the strut, step, ect., a leg or arm swing is often used instead of a whole body swing.

But as was said, the most important part is that everyone knows what it is.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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;)

Practice with the same people seems to help? Traveling around to different dzs' can be annoying. But a lesson from most big ways,...

The base is formed and there are still people at the door, so again with practice and as your expierence level increases you will get better at this, just stick with it!

C
But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

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divertech

On exiting the plane as a group I got used to ready (guy counting shakes group from inside plain), set (we all crouch and get ready), go (well we go/jump), now that I'm jumping at different DZ's there seem to be a few different counting methods (swining legs etc), obviously it's all good if it works but what would be the "best" way?



That's the "new standard" 4way count. As I understand, the count was moved to the inside by top teams to not give away too much warning to the judges, and therefore delay as much as possible the start of the clock. It works pretty well for 4way, with people who are "on it".

The more standard count, regardless of the size, comes from outside center. For 4 way, it's kind of the same: shake, ready, down on set, and out. For anything bigger, or funjumps, I prefer shake, down on ready, up on set with a large leg move to the inside, and go.
Remster

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I like a count where the exit motion is simply a continuation of the count motion. People link in the door and the keyer gets a shake or nods to tell them the formation is ready to launch. The keyer then gives a shake and then the whole formation, as one, sways out, sways back in and then sways out and leaves the plane as one smooth continuation of the pre-exit swaying motion.

Up-down-out or watch me waive my leg is all well and good but if you just shout, everyone will hear anyway and you achieve the same degree of notice. The bonus of the conjoined swaying means the entire formation is moving in unison even before the exit begins.

Became second nature. For example, without any planning, for my mate Firky we did a shaky shaky shaky, out-in-out and smoothly brought the coffin out of the hearse and up onto our shoulders. Even got a smile out of the undertaker who I'm sure hadn't seen pallbearers with their own exit count before.

I just freefly though and I'm sure competitive 4-way has different considerations.

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Several points made and I like them all.

Since a good exit is all about timing and presentation to the relative wind . . .

-I like a 3 part count, so you can pick up the rhythm.
-I like the motion, so everyone can join in and leave smoothly.
-I like the motion big, so rear-rear-rear float sees the count.
-I like the person doing the count to be chill, to not "head fake" or be ambiguous on the count.

I can understand competitive 4 way using a different method to gain an edge. If I jump with some of those guys, I'll have to adapt.

The last time I jumped with a 4 way team person, though, they tripped off a bunch of letters for the dive. "Okay, P, then F, transition to B, then D, back to the top."

Me . . "Huh?":D

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Remster

Quote

they tripped off a bunch of letters for the dive



No numbers, huh? ;)


I've been doing 4way camera for several years now. "Those Guys" keep expecting me to know what the alphabet is all about. :P I just smile and say... got it.

If you do have camera with, one thing that works really well it is to make (quick) eye contact with the camera guy just before you start the count.

Sometimes they're going off early and don't want to miss the count. It really does help. B|
Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

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JohnMitchell



-I like a 3 part count, so you can pick up the rhythm.
-I like the motion, so everyone can join in and leave smoothly.
-I like the motion big, so rear-rear-rear float sees the count.
-I like the person doing the count to be chill, to not "head fake" or be ambiguous on the count.




Good stuff here. One thing i would add. On bigger dives I like to appoint someone inside to give me a thumbs up when everyone inside is in position and ready for the exit. Quick nod to front and them rear float to let them know the exit count is coming. Loud count and big moves so no one misses the count and everyone moving together.
You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early!

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Rick

One thing i would add. On bigger dives I like to appoint someone inside to give me a thumbs up when everyone inside is in position and ready for the exit. Quick nod to front and them rear float to let them know the exit count is coming. Loud count and big moves so no one misses the count and everyone moving together.



The first use of the "shake" that I remember was similar to your thumbs up. It was the last guy on, or someone who could see everyone inside the plane letting the outside count know that everyone is ready. It was the green light to start the count.

You still see some teams that use it similarly (but all given by inside center) with the shake, then a ready, set go. Shake, set go seems to be more common.

At first, as a camera guy I preferred the outside counts. With inside counts it can be impossible to see them sometimes from the step. I now leave when I see the team leaving...and try not to pay attention to the count at all. I dont mind it now, and almost prefer it. If you are jumping with people you dont usually jump with, it can be easy to mistake someone getting their footing, or moving in the door for a leg swing or set...and end up with camera in freefall looking up at the 4 way on the plane.

From a fun jumper standpoint, I like OC (or whoever is outside) giving a big leg swing..but that s just me.

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Hate the 'shake', always have. IC and OC need eye contact - everyone else better damn well be ready. Nothing like a big jostling move when the others are balanced on the edge of a moving aircraft.

It was a bit of a joke around here as we had a team with a climbout and count like this....

weird series of shakes and breathing (while flying past the spot)
look out again
eyeballs (while flying past the spot)
tighten leg straps (while flying past the spot)
slow and tedious climbout

eyeballs (did I mention the green light has been on for a while now?)
breathe/pause
shake, shake,
pause
up
shake, pause
up again
down, shake
pause
suddenly go

maybe I'm exaggerating......:P



actually - we did have on team with a weird shake, pause, count thing going on.... the standing joke was that the OC was the only one that knew the count, everyone on his team would just stare in terror at his hips and try to leave when his hips left



(we do this)
last grips are IC - eye contact with OC (OC has the count, already checked with Camera)

OC lays left leg way out in the wind - pause/calm
ready (out)
set (in)
GO!

big motion so the camera sees it and the OC gets a strong forward and up/out launch - IC anticipates and works to get a tiny bit ahead of it - everyone else does their job


...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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Zlew

From a fun jumper standpoint, I like OC (or whoever is outside) giving a big leg swing..but that s just me.



our cameraman called it "more cowbell" he was never confused on whether we were getting positioned vs exiting - and it helps the launch anyway....

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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Jumped last year with a group that just used shaky shaky then nothing, (that could see or follow)then exit. I realy hated it as well. I was always late on the exit. Waiting for the count /movement that never came . Realy screwed my head up.
This is what we used to do and I think works best of all
(we do this)
last grips are IC - eye contact with OC (OC has the count, already checked with Camera)

OC lays left leg way out in the wind - pause/calm
ready (out)
set (in)
GO!

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Quote


This is what we used to do and I think works best of all
(we do this)
last grips are IC - eye contact with OC (OC has the count, already checked with Camera)

OC lays left leg way out in the wind - pause/calm
ready (out)
set (in)
GO!



I was still exiting late. Until someone told me the secret.

I had to exit on G. If I waited until I heard the GO! Everyone was already gone:(

The door mockup is a cost affective tool, think of it as a dirtdive and practice there not on jumprun.

R
One Jump Wonder

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what ever way is the quickest, so you don't piss off groups behind you.

And if your team/group has a long climb out and count, you don't need to watch the group before you's points on the hill. Get the fuck out!

Also if you are training, take a 10.5k foot pass.

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dqpacker

And if your team/group has a long climb out and count, you don't need to watch the group before you's points on the hill. Get the fuck out!



this ^, a quick look for traffic is needed and can be done as the first person is exiting..... if the groups are getting "pissed" though, then they should grow up. A calm talk about exit separation once on the ground is better than some crybaby whining about it after the fact. Or, worse, pissing and moaning about it behind people's backs.

exit separation is controlling the time between "go"s, people should count seconds sometime and see how long it really takes - big groups on normal days should just start climbing out asap - rarely do they take less than 15 seconds anyway. Doesn't matter the discipline. I've seen super long counts and dumb breathing things from every discipline in the book.

but if the groups behind you start screaming.... stop. Take off your helmet, and ask them if they see a plane or if something is wrong. They should shut up. If they don't, this will make sure they do next time.



Quote

Also if you are training, take a 10.5k foot pass



not this - train however you want to train

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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dqpacker

what ever way is the quickest, so you don't piss off groups behind you.

And if your team/group has a long climb out and count, you don't need to watch the group before you's points on the hill. Get the fuck out!

Also if you are training, take a 10.5k foot pass.



Again as already pointed out, again and again...


MAKE MULTIPLE PASSES!!!!

Don't tell me to get the fuck out, I'm either going to fuck with you on he plane, or on the ground, and or shut the door in your face, just to see your expression! >:(


Seriously all of this yelling causes incidents and off site landings. Never mind the fact that it's a distraction to the pilot!


Do you realize that many DZs' wont run multiple passes solley because of fule costs??

At what cost to safety????

C

And their not really saving anything anyways!!!
But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

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ChrisD

Again as already pointed out, again and again...


MAKE MULTIPLE PASSES!!!!



1 - usually no need for multiple passes. Skydivers need to understand that 10 seconds between groups is from "go" to "go". Instead of "go" to climbout. Then they need to make honest efforts to make that happen.

2 - Agree that the courtesy of the discussion is important. Don't be a dick about it on either side.

However, and especially if I have a student, if someone is shouting at me while I'm in the door, I HAVE to assume the worst and that the shouting is for the purpose of warning me off of climbout. I will stop and see what they are yelling about.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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ChrisD

***what ever way is the quickest, so you don't piss off groups behind you.

And if your team/group has a long climb out and count, you don't need to watch the group before you's points on the hill. Get the fuck out!

Also if you are training, take a 10.5k foot pass.



Again as already pointed out, again and again...


MAKE MULTIPLE PASSES!!!!

Don't tell me to get the fuck out, I'm either going to fuck with you on he plane, or on the ground, and or shut the door in your face, just to see your expression! >:(


Seriously all of this yelling causes incidents and off site landings. Never mind the fact that it's a distraction to the pilot!


Do you realize that many DZs' wont run multiple passes solley because of fule costs??

At what cost to safety????

C

And their not really saving anything anyways!!!

:o:o:o

Talk a bout thread drift. :S

Read the op how the hell did you all end up on this tangent.

Go arounds don't cost extra money :S Please explain that one.

More cost effective to make one pass and either send the truck to get the people that landed off or they can walk back.

Depending on the size and number of the groups the solos and 2 ways that are in the front of bus will probably get out long. They need to learn how to deal with it.

Go arounds:D some places may give it to some groups and not others. There's a reason the peeps in the front including the TMs are yelling go go. They know there's no go around.

The TMs want to keep their jobs any know what will happen if they ask for two many go arounds.B|

I haven't been to every DZ in the world, for some dzs the spot is very critical they might give a Second pass, but in general terms the second pass isnt going to happen at a efficiently run dz.


Don't like it:( to bad land with the plane and see if you get your lift ticket back.:D:S
One Jump Wonder

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ChrisD



Don't tell me to get the fuck out, I'm either going to fuck with you on he plane, or on the ground, and or shut the door in your face, just to see your expression! >:(



And then you'll find yourself not jumping for a bit, because you're creating a greater safety hazard, impacting DZ operations, and I'll ask you to not jump from our aircraft for a while.



ChrisD


Seriously all of this yelling causes incidents and off site landings. Never mind the fact that it's a distraction to the pilot!



While you _may_ have a valid point, I'd like to see your data supporting this.
Off landings sometimes occur. Multiple passes are generally not needed even on large DZ's. Multiple passes can make for unsafe or inefficiencies when multiple aircraft are operating. Being on a multi-Otter DZ where fun jumps, AFF, Tandems, WS, and CRW are on the same plane, we do not often do multiple passes unless someone hoses the first spot.
If jumpers cannot manage their deployment altitudes relevant to the spot, or if they spend a lot of time in the door, then perhaps they need re-training.
Although everyone should be spotting their jump, this shouldn't take but a split second unless you're the first guy out. If you're the first guy out, you do not need to be straight over the DZ and should be checking the spot long before the door light comes on, and well before the actual climb out.

One caveat that is frequently seen; the first group tells the second group "give us 10 seconds after we leave." First group starts spotting when the exit light goes on. They take 10 seconds to set up and exit. The next group counts 10, then takes another 10 seconds on climbout/set up. This offsets the spot for everyone and by the time tandems need to be exiting, they're already discussing deployment at 6500 so that the videographer isn't low and out.

When counting time between groups, include the climbout and setup time. It doesn't hurt to be set up 5 seconds early and wait those 5 on the outside of the aircraft, and will likely be appreciated by those following your group out the door. Be considerate of others when it's your time at the door.

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