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JohnRich

Bail out, or land with the plane?

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>If someone was to decide on their own to open the door and go, that would be the
>last time they ever rode on a plane I was flying.

If someone was to decide on their own to try to open the door and go on most of the aircraft I have been on without instruction from the pilot, he would likely find himself discouraged from doing so. Fortunately on most aircraft it takes some cooperation to open the door and exit, and lacking that cooperation he'll be staying put.

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pchapman

***
Disagreed. There has been more than one panicky skydiver restrained from disrupting procedures. Some needing to be put in a headlock.



And now you want to break the law and start assaulting people. :)
Or maybe, as I said, rules go out the window IF you can defend yourself afterwards. I didn't say "rules go out the window, always and in any way you want on a whim."

And in this case, you shouldn't get a criminal record because the restraint is suitable and prevents harm to others.

So it all fits in perfectly with what I said.
..and what you said is nonsensical.

Do it on a plane with a safety-minded jumpers on board, go ahead and consider yourself assaulted.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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Passengers on airline flights seem to often be involved in restraining unruly passengers and I've never heard of charges being filed.
Life is ez
On the dz
Every jumper's dream
3 rigs and an airstream

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AdD

Passengers on airline flights seem to often be involved in restraining unruly passengers and I've never heard of charges being filed.



I hav, look em up on the internet,...

The papers and such are full of arrests in CA with "helpers" being charged with unlawful detention and assalt charges, many store detectivs are charged with this esp if they detain some shoplifter outside of the store! Most are trained to just let em go...


Have you been in a clothing , high end store and notice they limit the number of clothes on the rack, or been to a store where the clothes are tied to the rack? This is because of the prevalance of the snatch and grab in our malls and the store policies of not interfeering with the theives! Because of the number of lawsuits against the victims!!!!:S

Flight attendants recive specific instructions on this very subject.

C
But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

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I have been in a plane that had a problem about 10,000'. Everyone moved towards the door and started wanting out, which did the pilot no good at all! :o


Good news! Now you know who the idiots are and lived to tell the story!

Quote

Someone told us very forcefully to SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP AND LISTEN TO THE PILOT!!! We did not ride the plane down.


Which is what they should have been doing in the first place.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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billvon

>So do you get your jump refunded if there is an incident and you are forced out at
>an early altitude?

Depends on the DZ. At most DZ's - no.



But you get a cool experience you can write in your logbook.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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Mach1dmb

So do you get your jump refunded if there is an incident and you are forced out at an early altitude?




Really??

THAT'S your main concern after surviving an incident in an aircraft?

Amazing










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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Cloudy, unjumpable weather day. Probably 10.6 DC3s over Z-Hills, 264 Mass exit. Jump run(s). Go arounds. Go arounds. About 4,000 ft. AGL. Pilot advises: This is as good as it gets, exit or ride down. I holler, "Who plans to pull high?" Most hands raise up "Me!"
Waldo Jecker RIP grins, points to me him and we exit. We 2-way; take it low, like very. break off, turn 90 & pull sitting up. Getting opening shock. Dirty Billy RIP screams past hollering LOUD about CS MFs !! (pissed we didn't hold for him to enter 3rd). We landed in the swamp... broke my ankle. Lt. Needles & his USAPT 10-way team carried me out of swamp to ambulance. Rain. Ambulance gets lost on swamp roads. Bottom of my foot is looking up at me. I stay pleasant. Hospital. Newell RIP and Nugent RIP entertain Jan on the beach doing stoned spin outs (rented convertible) 'til i'm released. Ever thoughtful, dead Nugent seals a plane so Tuna flies us home in an ice storm. En route, Nugents HUGE Great Dane challenges me to a puking contest. Dog wins. Icy strip landing in Schaumberg Il., . Me on crutches. Slippery. Attitude dissipates. X-years later: Charming FBI shows up at work. Me, a Norton Simon executive in my walnut-window suite, am less than happy. "Where is G. Nugent?.... ??" No clue. No see since landing. Grumpy, I escort them out. X-months later. Fullerton Post Office has Nugent featured on FBI's "Most Wanted" list. Good photos. I send 'em to Fedo back in Il. He is delighted. Nugent stiffed him for x-$K big. Frames it. Photo still on his wall.

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Mach1dmb

So do you get your jump refunded if there is an incident and you are forced out at an early altitude?


Nope
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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Twin otter. Pilot in training forgets to screw an oil cap on. PIC catches the indicators and shuts down the right side. Monkeys around a little and calmly signals for bail-out.

I'm at the door. Having already gotten everybody prepped for bail-out, I open the door and see we're over 3 miles away from the DZ with only 1 small open field nearby and several low-time jumpers on board.

Now keep in mind that the Otter will fly very well on one motor and we're just cruisin' along.

So, being the concerned citizen that I am, I ask for a go-around back to the DZ.

Pilot shakes his head and says, "OK".

Back at the DZ, I start shovin' 'em out one by one starting at 1700. Me and Mike G. are last out at 1900. Everybody landed on the DZ.

Back on the ground the pilot says to me, "You're the only one I've ever known to ask for a go-around on a bail-out. I countered, "Yeah, and you're the only pilot I've ever known that gave one."
:D:D
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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popsjumper

***So do you get your jump refunded if there is an incident and you are forced out at an early altitude?


Nope

Well, it's up to the DZ management to define the product that's being purchased with the jump ticket: the ride, the altitude or the jump. 3 different DZOs might have 3 different answers to that question as applied to their particular DZ. But there should be something posted, such as a prominent sign at manifest (and website, loading area, etc.) that makes it clear to the consumer.

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popsjumper


Back on the ground the pilot says to me, "You're the only one I've ever known to ask for a go-around on a bail-out. I countered, "Yeah, and you're the only pilot I've ever known that gave one."



Aha! So you have disregarded the pilot's instructions instead of slavishly following every command to the letter. ;);)

I thought we had been arguing about whether the pilot is the infallible commander who must be followed in all circumstances: If he says nothing, you stay put, if he says jump, you jump NOW.

You disregarded his explicit command .... but you communicated with him, and improved the safety of the flight overall. You thought you knew better than him, since he was understandably focused on the engine out issue and keeping the plane aloft, while you had time to evaluate additional factors.

As you point out, sometimes skydivers would make terrible decisions if they didn't listen to the pilot during an incident. But sometimes a skydiver will make a good decision, as you yourself showed.

Thank you!

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Aha! So you have disregarded the pilot's instructions instead of slavishly following every command to the letter. ;);)


:D:D:D

If you can show where I disobeyed the pilot, I'll laugh along with you instead of at you. No, asking is not disobeying.
:P

OTOH, yeah, I didn't get out immediately. I disobeyed by staying in and jump-mastering the youngsters. My bad.

You been sittin' back waiting for something, anything, haven't you?
:D:D

I'd venture to say there's a difference with this than what you are espousing, eh? There's not much we do blindly.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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popsjumper


I'd venture to say there's a difference with this than what you are espousing, eh?



We probably are still somewhat apart on this whole issue.

But my point was just that the "follow the pilot" rule need not be 100% absolute and that there is room to maneuver, as you demonstrated. Meanwhile maybe you're thinking that my idea that you don't necessarily have to follow the pilot is meant to be 100% absolute too, that I'm just encouraging a free for all, do anything you want and screw everyone else. Which isn't true either. It is true that there's a lot of potential for abuse there, if the principle is not used very carefully and wisely. So there's always more complexity than can be encapsulated in a short rule like "follow the pilot!" or "do what you think is right!".

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Lots of interesting and funny replies on this one. usually listen to pic unless ac is going down or pic is paniced then I would probably exit w/o his permission
This is why I almost always spot. I am by the door and a JIB (jumper in back) should act as loadmaster in these situations. Info from PIC should go to them (LM) or be relayed back if it a larger AC.

I've been in quite a few of these situations and have seen a lot of experienced jumpers try and do stupid things (go figure jumpers doing stupid things) unless someone tells them what to do.
Every flight should have some kind of plan in place just for these type events and a JIB in charge.

On a lighter note one of my favorite bail outs (had a few as well as an upside down casa at Richmond) was a beech with gear problem. PIC wasen't sure if it would go back down after it got stuck going up and we couldn't climb.

Mike and I had a level I AFF (Cat A for newbies). Rule book said to strap them in and un-hook AOD (AAD now) We did and as everyone else was leaving I looked back at him and the look on his face said WTF leaving me here!! We knew he had a few S/L jumps a while back so we grabbed him told him exit- PULL!! So a quick up down arch out we go at 2800 or so by then. He pulls we all land fine plane lands ok and all is well. So sometime rules need to be broken.
Oh BTW we passed him to Level II
waving off is to tell people to get out of my landing area

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But my point was just that the "follow the pilot" rule need not be 100% absolute and that there is room to maneuver, as you demonstrated.


I don't believe I demonstrated that at all but that's OK. Let's run with it.

Quote

Meanwhile maybe you're thinking that my idea that you don't necessarily have to follow the pilot is meant to be 100% absolute too, that I'm just encouraging a free for all, do anything you want and screw everyone else.


Yes, that's the way your earlier posts came across to me.

Quote

It is true that there's a lot of potential for abuse there, if the principle is not used very carefully and wisely.


Yes. And the prevailing principle is "follow the pilot's lead."
(I generously gave the pilot more opportunity to lead. :D:P)

Why do I think that's important?
- You rarely have knowledge as to what the pilot is really having to deal with up there.
- CG may be his big issue. Changing CG may me the straw that kills him...and you...and me...and others.
- There is lots of information the pilot has to evaluate in order to make the go/stay decision. If the information he has dictates 'stay', you may very well be the cause of the crash that nobody wants to see if you don't stay.

I need not mention things like open doors and changes in flight characteristics, the distractions of yelling/screaming..all those other issues.

Quote

So there's always more complexity than can be encapsulated in a short rule like "follow the pilot!" or "do what you think is right!".


Yep. Complexity. But the complexity is the pilot's problem to deal with, not ours. Ours is very simple...'follow the pilot's lead'.

Now having said that, I can agree that it may happen that things go to shit so badly, that no matter what you do, it won't make anything worse. Didn't someone post the vid of the upside-down bailout on an inverted spin? If the pilot had 'no decision' or had said 'stay', it would be almost humanly impossible to ride that out.

So far I've been lucky in that I haven't had to peel myself off of a ceiling to make it to the door. (knock on wood)
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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+1

I know "the look".
:D:D

When there was a problem that gave us an option, he basic rule for us was, Main stays, Reserve has option.

I had a running roll with one of the guys - rock/paper/scissors, 1 shot, winner take all.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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On another one, same situation - pilot in training, oil cap, me jumpmaster (why me? All the damned time me and what is it with pilots in training and blasted oil caps anyway?)

I get everybody ready to go same as always. This time, people are yelling and screaming and a couple of the "experienced" people up by the pilot jumped up and started tightening up straps (f'n idiots). I got 'em to sit down and STFU finally.

It gets verbally relayed back to me to bail out when we get to the DZ. So, same thing, 1700 everybody (23) bails....last out again at 1900 with Mike G, everybody on the DZ.

(Note: I had a senior moment. THIS is the one that got the 1700 with Mike G. The other one got about 5K exits and was uneventful.)

Talked to the pilot...why no hand signal to bail?
"Oh, it wasn't mandatory. I just said when we get to the DZ it would be nice if some people got off to lighten the load little."
:D:D

DZO announced loudly, "Alright. That's it! If 23 can hit the DZ from 2K, there will be NO MORE GO-AROUNDS!
:D:D:D


Side story:
21 mains, 2 reserves.
People in the hangar were giving the the two girls shit for bailing on reserve.
I had to stand in the middle of the hanger and politely...well, no, not politely at all...tell them to STFU harassing the girls. The girls had a plan, they followed it. Period.


OK..I checked my driver's license and verified my name...my senior, moment has passed.
B|:D
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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airtwardo



Really??

THAT'S your main concern after surviving an incident in an aircraft?

Amazing



Main concern, no..But it might be a concern after I land. It was just a mere curiosity question. I'm just wondering if it ever came up. Depending on the seriousness of the incident, I could see a DZO giving everyone another jump, I can also see it not even crossing anyone's mind.

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