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JohnRich

Bail out, or land with the plane?

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Howzabout everyone becomes deaf and mute at the same time? Really dude, you're trying to create an extremely unlikely scenario to justify what appears to be, by everyone else's response, an unjustifiable position. keep it simple. At 9500', stay put. let the pilot do their job. once they are set, they will tell you what to do. Unless of course, they had a heart attack, bailed out without telling anyone or suddenly forgot how to speak the local lingo. Let me guess, you were one of the one's that bailed out early at Midwest?

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I'd ask and if no responce came...I'D TELL him, I'm going for help... C-YA! ;)

My response too. I'd find a chance to ask him. I've worked enough emergencies to know when there's a moment for talking. If all I got was crickets, I'd say "I'm jumping." If he still doesn't say anything, that's tacit approval.

"I'm going for help" :D:D:D That's funny as hell. B|

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Hypothetical situation:

You're in a Cessna Caravan, fully loaded with jumpers. At 9,500 feet, the engine dies. The pilot maintains control of the aircraft and starts gliding to earth. There is no word from the pilot as to whether or not he wants you to bail out. You prepare for an orderly single-file exit while awaiting permission from the pilot. The countryside provides plenty of safe off-airport landing spaces. Time passes. Now you're down to 3,000 feet, but there is still no word from the pilot. What are you going to do? Bail out, or take your chances landing in a crippled airplane?



Ha nice try, the pilot would for sure say something
Look out for the freefly team, Smelly Peppers. Once we get a couple years more experience we will be a force to be reckoned with in the near future! BLUES!

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Hypothetical situation:

You're in a Cessna Caravan, fully loaded with jumpers. At 9,500 feet, the engine dies. The pilot maintains control of the aircraft and starts gliding to earth. There is no word from the pilot as to whether or not he wants you to bail out. You prepare for an orderly single-file exit while awaiting permission from the pilot. The countryside provides plenty of safe off-airport landing spaces. Time passes. Now you're down to 3,000 feet, but there is still no word from the pilot. What are you going to do? Bail out, or take your chances landing in a crippled airplane?



did you take a look to see if the pilot's still there? remember he would have had a slim pack at hand.

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If the airplane is above a safe landing area, then a minimum sink speed allows the pilot more time to deal with the problem. The minimum sink speed is lower when the airplane is lighter. Jumpers out!

If the airplane needs to glide somewhere to land safely, then it still depends. Higher weight means a higher speed and better penetration into headwinds. If the airplane is downwind of the landing area, keeping jumpers on board for a little while longer is helpful. If upwind, then lighter weight (jumpers out) and lower speed might be able to take advantage of the wind to make it back -- a little bit like hanging in brakes to get back from a long spot.


That may be true for parachutes, but it's not true for airplanes. A lighter airplane will have a lower rate of descent, but best glide speed will remain constant at any weight.

The pilot has absolute control over the speed of an airplane with or without engine power.

--
It's all been said before, no sense repeating it here.

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When the pilot starts yelling "AUSFAHRT" you know you are in trouble. I am not sure what it means but it just sounds bad.



:D:ph34r: Right call, it means Exit:ph34r:


Two countries, divided by the same language. B| Also applies to Austria and Germany. "Ausfahrt" is strictly "exit from a motorway or a roundabout etc" in Germany. A pilot in Germany would have yelled:
- "Abgang" (if he was very old and used to old-fashioned skydiver terms)
- "Abprung" (jump out!) or "raus!" (= out!) (if he was just a normal pilot)
- "exit" (if he was younger or/and a skydiver as well)

BTW: I also smile when I read "Uitrit" at motorways in Vlandern :-)
The sky is not the limit. The ground is.

The Society of Skydiving Ducks

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The pilot has absolute control over the speed of an airplane with or without engine power.

--



That's not entirely true... with no engine you cannot accelerate without losing a level flight path.
*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

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Once again the moderators here have chosen to delete a bunch of perfectly innocent messages. So now it's time for some payback once again. Tsk tsk. It's too bad they continue this program of self-induced punishment. It would be so easy if they just left those innocent messages alone, and public. But, when they fucka wit me, I fucka wit them. So here we go again.

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Guys,

As a pilot who works a DZ and has done quite a bit of flying work outside of the DZ as well (charter to specialty) who has had a engine failure (and no I was not lucky enough to have it at the DZ where I'm over a airport in near CAVU conditions) here's my two cents.

The first thing I'm going to do is pitch for my best glide speed

Second pick my landing area (not necessarily the airport, but at a DZ probably the airport)

Three trouble shoot my engine if I have time


Once I have best glide and my spot I'll probably holler at you guys as I'm trouble shooting, or before.

More then likely I will have you bail, I'm PIC, meaning I am responsible for each and every one of you and I dont want my pax to be in any more danger then they have to be, also I want to be light.

WHAT NOT TO DO, Ive heard some of you guys saying that if the pilot doesnt say anything by a few thousand feet you're going to jump, NO NO NO

I realize that there are some F tard pilots who work at DZs and there IS a chance the dude just isnt going to speak up, some people excel under stress, some not so much...

That being said, at a low altitude I am setting up to land and I dont need the flight characteristics of my aircraft to change around on me AT ALL

If you're going to jump without asking me I'd rather you do it at altitude then down low.

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As a (private, non-jump) pilot, I read 9,000 feet and thought "oh, luxury!". There's a lot of time if something goes wrong that high. When a single engine plane loses its engine, first thing you usually do is trim for best glide. Every plane has a "best glide" speed, you point the nose down until that speed is reached. That'll keep you from stalling and give you time to go through your emergency procedures. At a descent rate of 1,000 feet per minute (which is a really fast decent rate, I think much faster than a Caravan would even heavily loaded) you've got 9 minutes before wheels down.

I think the real issue is what happens at 2,500 feet, or 1,500 feet. Or 3,500 feet when there's time to bail at that moment, but the clock is ticking and the pilots immediate workload is high.

Of course, you don't want a packed plane running to the door at the same time, otherwise you can get into an irreversible stall/spin that could kill just about everyone (even those that already left, plus maybe a few on the ground). But a lighter loaded plane will glide further than a heavier loaded one. At 9,000 feet, I imagine most pilots would tell people to get out. At 3,000? I don't know.

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I've bailed out three times I can remember. Most recently was at about 8k, skyvan lost hydraulic pump and pilot invited us to leave early, basically a normal jump run and orderly exit.

Another one was when the pilot forgot to put the fuel cap on the 206 and we noticed fuel streaming from the wing, again communicated with the pilot and then jumped near the dz.

Once on the ground the 185's engine caught fire on start-up, pilot wasn't saying anything, I told my tandem passenger we should leave, he kind of freaked out and was attached to me by the lower connectors which wasn't the best situation. That turned out not to be a bad engine fire, just excess fuel hitting the hot cowling.

Communicating with the pilot is definitely a good idea.
Life is ez
On the dz
Every jumper's dream
3 rigs and an airstream

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With all due respect cause I just love hypothetical situations...

You have once again created thought where there should be none.

You do what the pilot says.

It's not up to you,

My two cents is you have created doubt and planted the seed that it's up to the individual to do what he or she wants in a very trying situation.

There are soo many correct responses that you have not included in your poll????

You have done a great job to illustrate your point though,:)
C

What is good for the goose is good for the gander btw, if there are soo many great places to land...why is the aircraft crippled...what if there is something protruding from the aircraft that will slice you in half as you exit the door? What if there is a sniper (Farmer McNasty) on the ground and that is what has crippled the aircraft?
What if your a muslin and this is your attempt at Jihad? You chickinin out?

C
But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

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If the pilot is very, very busy and Jump Ship seems to be getting to the point of instability, I'm leaving the rest of you guys in the fusalage and bailing. How ever, if the pilot does have the time to issue or give orders, then I'll consult him, digest his order rather quickly, then make my decision. I've seen a couple of pilots get rattled quite easily.
Best-
Richard

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rwieder

If the pilot is very, very busy and Jump Ship seems to be getting to the point of instability, I'm leaving the rest of you guys in the fusalage and bailing. How ever, if the pilot does have the time to issue or give orders, then I'll consult him, digest his order rather quickly, then make my decision. I've seen a couple of pilots get rattled quite easily.
Best-
Richard



If I'm the pilot, and there's an emergency situation, and I yell: "EVERYONE SIT STILL", there's a reason for it.

If someone was to decide on their own to open the door and go, that would be the last time they ever rode on a plane I was flying.

If the plane is on the edge of control, opening the door or shifting around of passengers could be catastrophic.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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If I'm the pilot, and there's an emergency situation, and I yell: "EVERYONE SIT STILL", there's a reason for it.

If someone was to decide on their own to open the door and go, that would be the last time they ever rode on a plane I was flying.

If the plane is on the edge of control, opening the door or shifting around of passengers could be catastrophic.



+10
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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wolfriverjoe

***If the pilot is very, very busy and Jump Ship seems to be getting to the point of instability, I'm leaving the rest of you guys in the fusalage and bailing. How ever, if the pilot does have the time to issue or give orders, then I'll consult him, digest his order rather quickly, then make my decision. I've seen a couple of pilots get rattled quite easily.
Best-
Richard



If I'm the pilot, and there's an emergency situation, and I yell: "EVERYONE SIT STILL", there's a reason for it.

If someone was to decide on their own to open the door and go, that would be the last time they ever rode on a plane I was flying.

If the plane is on the edge of control, opening the door or shifting around of passengers could be catastrophic.

x3

You realize you are on a commercial flight right?

The pilot is the FINAL authority and is interested in your safety as he is responsible for it

If you decide to play by your own rule book, you should know

"No person may assault, threaten, intimidate, or interfere with a crewmember in the performance of the crewmember's duties"

So you screw around during a emergency, causing the flight characteristics of the plane to change, you get your friends hurt, the plane bent and presuming the PIC doesn't rip you in half, there's a decent chance you might go to prison (federal) heck might even hold you accountable for the damages due to your actions.

Dont be a moron, if the pilot tells you to do something it's not only for his benefit it's for YOURS too

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The whole argument basically keeps on being this:

"Do what the the pilot says because he knows what's going on with the plane."

"Yeah! Unless he does something wrong and endangers me and the other jumpers."

"But you have to listen to the pilot!"

"Sure, but not if he's wrong!"

"Well I don't trust skydivers!"

"Yeah well I don't trust pilots!"

Repeat ad infinitum.


Rules can go out the window in an emergency -- same as for pilots -- as long as you can defend yourself afterwards...

(One could I suppose make a list of how many skydivers were killed by pilots, vs. pilots killed by skydivers. There are definitely a few of the latter, but many more of the former. Naturally there will be plenty of grey area in between, say when it comes to arguing whether the jumpers or engine failure caused the plane to stall or whether the pilot caused it to stall...)

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pchapman

The whole argument basically keeps on being this:

"Do what the the pilot says because he knows what's going on with the plane."

"Yeah! Unless he does something wrong and endangers me and the other jumpers."

"But you have to listen to the pilot!"

"Sure, but not if he's wrong!"

"Well I don't trust skydivers!"

"Yeah well I don't trust pilots!"

Repeat ad infinitum.


Rules can go out the window in an emergency -- same as for pilots -- as long as you can defend yourself afterwards...

(One could I suppose make a list of how many skydivers were killed by pilots, vs. pilots killed by skydivers. There are definitely a few of the latter, but many more of the former. Naturally there will be plenty of grey area in between, say when it comes to arguing whether the jumpers or engine failure caused the plane to stall or whether the pilot caused it to stall...)



I think that's a decision you need to make prior to boarding the aircraft.

It's a commercial flight, one would hope that as with the airlines there are certain standards of performance that need to be met prior to having the job. Either accept that the DZO has chosen wisely and do as you're told - LIKE on an airliner...

Or take it upon yourself to watch, ask, listen and evaluate the pilots skills - then make your decision to fly or not.

Not possible/practical?

True Story ~ Years ago I stopped a DZ near my usual 'home' DZ mid-week because my favorite place was only open weekends.

A buddy that was a packer-d00d back when there really weren't many - worked both DZ's, mine on weekends - - there where I stopped during the week.

Ole Berry came over to me and said, "I wouldn't go up if I were you, this pilot thinks he's a Blue Angel and I have a feeling something bad is gonna happen."

Thought to myself - but shit I wanna make a couple, then paid close attention a couple landings & takeoffs.

I left...a few days later the Perris Otter crash occurred, same pilot.

I thanked Berry & bought him dinner that weekend...never looked at who I fly with & what I fly in the same after that.

If there is writing on the wall read it...FAA nails a DZ for BS maintenance? I'll never go there - not worth taking a chance, if someone's willing to overlook THAT - what else are they not concerned about...no thanks.

But - if I'm on the plane, I've decided to put my trust & my life in the hands of the PIC. What that person says is IT...there isn't any fudge room on that, live or die with YOUR decision to fly.










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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Rules can go out the window in an emergency -- same as for pilots -- as long as you can defend yourself afterwards...



Disagreed. There has been more than one panicky skydiver restrained from disrupting procedures. Some needing to be put in a headlock.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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popsjumper


Disagreed. There has been more than one panicky skydiver restrained from disrupting procedures. Some needing to be put in a headlock.



And now you want to break the law and start assaulting people. :)
Or maybe, as I said, rules go out the window IF you can defend yourself afterwards. I didn't say "rules go out the window, always and in any way you want on a whim."

And in this case, you shouldn't get a criminal record because the restraint is suitable and prevents harm to others.

So it all fits in perfectly with what I said.

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pchapman

***
Disagreed. There has been more than one panicky skydiver restrained from disrupting procedures. Some needing to be put in a headlock.



And now you want to break the law and start assaulting people. :)
Or maybe, as I said, rules go out the window IF you can defend yourself afterwards. I didn't say "rules go out the window, always and in any way you want on a whim."

And in this case, you shouldn't get a criminal record because the restraint is suitable and prevents harm to others.

So it all fits in perfectly with what I said.


I gotta disagree...

It's black & white...EVERYONE needs to obey the pilot in command. There's no voting, no discussion...if you 'think' you can defend your actions later, you STILL could be wrong - and kill everyone by 'accident' doing the wrong thing.

If ya leave that 'loophole' out there, what keeps Joe Shit the Ragman and his 77 jumps from deciding that thermal bump we just hit is a defensible reason to punch out the side window and fire his reserve through it, hoping for a miraculous life-saving extract?

I don't like the idea of betting MY life on what 'that guy' thinks is right when he's not in the left seat - trained & aware of what's called for during a very dynamic & changing situation.

'That Guy' doesn't have the big picture, and throwing more variables to contend with AT the pilot only makes matters worse.










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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normiss

Troll threads are dull.



Yeah I saw that too a few days ago when it 'resurfaced'...but then again if something can be gained by learning - no foul, regardless of the intentions! ;)










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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