obelixtim 100 #51 May 26, 2011 QuoteI agree, but John Rich seems to be advocating exiting the plane right away in the scenario described with out waiting for any input from the pilot. The scenario he described has plenty of time to wait for pilot instructions. It's not at a critical altitude and there is no structural failure that is causing the plane to descend quickly and uncontrollably. In that scenario it is highly unlikely that the pilot is not going to relay instructions with in a reasonable time frame. The pilot only needs two words to empty the plane...but the jumpers should be ready at any time....At 2 to 3 grand the jumpers need to take the decision themselves....its only sensible.... The problem here is its only a one scenario situation...and the discussion has to be balanced, in case people get the idea that one course of action is the only one.....when every situation is different and different people and aircraft are involved. When things turn to shit it, can happen fast and quickly multiply till its a matter of survival, every situation (and its solution) can be different.....Had to bail once when the cockpit suddenly filled with smoke and an incredible stink of burning plastic...electrical fire...We didn't hang around waiting for something to blow....... Over the water, we were dead men if we bailed, and riding the plane into the sea wasn't a lifesaving option either......all options were bad... Personally, plane problems at altitude don't bother me too much....its takeoff problems that scare me....My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #52 May 26, 2011 Right, I agree. What I wrote only pertained to the specified scenario. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jrjny 0 #53 May 26, 2011 Yeah man I'm more dangerous than skydiving itself :-) argue on rational grounds -ad hominem BS doesn't work in the real world. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 100 #54 May 26, 2011 QuoteRight, I agree. What I wrote only pertained to the specified scenario. If you're gonna be in one, thats a pretty good one for it to be...but you'd be pretty lucky to get away with a relatively easy one to deal with like that.... A variety of options and reactions need to be in everyones portfolio for survival....My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #55 May 26, 2011 I have been in three emergency exit scenarios and one of them was almost exactly like this one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #56 May 26, 2011 Quote I have been in three emergency exit scenarios and one of them was almost exactly like this one. What did you do, and did ya live? ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mirage62 0 #57 May 26, 2011 Yeah well I was with you on one, and a nice calm voice in the back helped what got me was the number of people that went straight there reserve from no lower than 1,700 feet. (and I think higher) When I ask one why they had selected to go straight to there reserve from that altitude I was told straight faced with total belief "Because reserves never fail" Holy cow........ Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 100 #58 May 26, 2011 Quoteargue on rational grounds -ad hominem BS doesn't work in the real world. I take it you know how to use a mirror?....My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #59 May 26, 2011 Followed instructions and as far as I know I am still alive at least till someone tells me differently. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 100 #60 May 26, 2011 Quote Followed instructions and as far as I know I am still alive at least till someone tells me differently.Wink What with surviving the rapture the other day, all your cards are coming up trumps!!. My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #61 May 26, 2011 QuoteI agree with this statement. What I don't agree with is that the situation you described and the what happened in the MI incident qualifies as an extreme situation that requires quick thinking and action. And I can say that because I have been in that situation and there was plenty of time to wait and see what the pilot wanted us to do. No need to panic and rush for the door as you seem to be advocating. You have misinterpreted my "advocacy", and I'm tired of explaining myself over and over again... QuoteI agree, but John Rich seems to be advocating exiting the plane right away in the scenario described with out waiting for any input from the pilot. The scenario he described has plenty of time to wait for pilot instructions. It's not at a critical altitude and there is no structural failure that is causing the plane to descend quickly and uncontrollably. Note that in my scenario everyone sat tight awaiting word from the pilot, and only when the plane has descended to a hard-deck altitude with no word from the PIC, do I then suggest that people make their own go/no-go decision. I don't know how you are deriving these misinterpretations of my statements... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Southern_Man 0 #62 May 26, 2011 QuoteQuoteI agree, but John Rich seems to be advocating exiting the plane right away in the scenario described with out waiting for any input from the pilot. The scenario he described has plenty of time to wait for pilot instructions. It's not at a critical altitude and there is no structural failure that is causing the plane to descend quickly and uncontrollably. Note that in my scenario everyone sat tight awaiting word from the pilot, and only when the plane has descended to a hard-deck altitude with no word from the PIC, do I then suggest that people make their own go/no-go decision. I don't know how you are deriving these misinterpretations of my statements... I don't know, but my reading is that people may be suggesting that aircraft emergencies are too complicated a situation with too many variables to be boiled down to a simple yes/no question."What if there were no hypothetical questions?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #63 May 26, 2011 You have to admit it's highly unlikely that a pilot would not give instructions during the flight from 9,000 feet to 3,000. That's a lot of time. I partly getting this from your reaction to the MI incident. It appears that you think it was ok for the people that jumped with out waiting for the pilot to give instructions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 100 #64 May 26, 2011 QuoteI don't know, but my reading is that people may be suggesting that aircraft emergencies are too complicated a situation with too many variables to be boiled down to a simple yes/no question. Thats it.....its why I didn't take the option to vote....My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #65 May 26, 2011 QuoteI partly getting this from your reaction to the MI incident. It appears that you think it was ok for the people that jumped with out waiting for the pilot to give instructions. I've already told you twice that you have misrepresented my position. So why are you here, once again, saying the same thing for a third time, after I've already told you twice it's incorrect. ARE YOU HARD OF HEARING? I don't like to yell, but the message isn't getting through to you for some reason. I'll quote here a crucial message I made in the Incidents forum thread on this topic, to try and help you understand my position: "We've had a large number of our friends die in plane crashes after experiencing engine problems. I think skydivers are far safer bailing out, than staying with the plane, in the vast majority of circumstances. By all means, do it with the pilots permission. But if he's too busy flying the plane to communicate, then what? If you've stayed patiently with a crippled plane, no word from the pilot, and you're down to 3,000 feet - what are you going to do? 'It's a personal judgement call at that point. If the plane is going down to a high-probability bad landing, and the pilot isn't granting permission to exit because he's just too busy to think about it, I'm bailing out anyway. You are welcome to stay onboard and take your chances with landing in the crippled plane. Good luck. Before you turn the flamethrowers on me, review the stories of bad aircraft landings and all the skydivers that have died as a result... "If that doesn't clear it up for you, then alternatively, I offer you this position: "If the engine quits, I'm going to immediately bail out, without regard to the commands of the pilot, nor with concern for anyone else on board. Fuck them, I'm saving my own ass. And if you want to live, you better follow me out, fast! I'll be on the ground drinking a cold beer, watching everyone else die in a fiery crash landing. Ha!"There, does that make you happy now? Apparently you need someone to hate, so that should do it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DocPop 1 #66 May 26, 2011 Quote Apparently you need someone to hate, so that should do it for you. I'm usually enough for most people."The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 100 #67 May 26, 2011 QuoteI'm usually enough for most people. Nobody hates you Doc, Its just that you make yourself an irresistable target.......My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BrokenR1 0 #68 May 27, 2011 I voted based on the situation as it was presented. Pretty simple I think. Now you can go on about alternatives that should have happened before then but in that scenario they did not. Didn't someone already say they were in an incident where the pilot forgot to relay any instructions as well? - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Rap is to music what etch-a-sketch is to art. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #69 May 27, 2011 QuoteIt appears that you think it was ok for the people that jumped with out waiting for the pilot to give instructions. Well, my lengthy reply to this, with a quote from the other thread, was deleted by a moderator. So I'll just keep it short this time: "You're wrong". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #70 May 27, 2011 QuoteHow about, "Ask the pilot"? This ^ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #71 May 27, 2011 QuoteQuoteSo from 9.5 to 3 the pilot just glides along and says nothing? Not likely. Maybe he says something but nobody hears it. Full face helmets! Maybe someone up front hears it, but doesn't pass the word. Maybe the pilot is over-saturated dealing with the situation and has been too busy to think about informing the jumpers on board. John is this not what training is for? As you learned in the MARINES there is a chain of command, a procedure etched in stone, a training technique that instills in you they way to do things, the time to do it and why. I may be a really low timer but I plan on coming back, I have listened to my friends advice for over 30 years. They are not just experienced jumpers but instructors as well that may have taught many of you here on this very board, if not maybe your instructor was. I put a lot of credence into what someone says when they have been doing this for so damned long and lived through the days when things were not as well scrutinized. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #72 May 27, 2011 Quotethere is a chain of command, a procedure etched in stone, a training technique that instills in you they way to do things, the time to do it and why. I haven't said anything to the contrary. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #73 May 27, 2011 Thank you John. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #74 May 31, 2011 QuoteAt what point would you interfere with the pilot while he's dealing with an emergency situation, in order to request permission to bail out? If the pilot cannot be bothered to answer a question in the time it takes to go from 9.5 to 3k in a stable gliding airplane..... Then he should not be flying. If I tried to ask the pilot and he ignored me for that long... I'd likely get out... I mean if he is so tasked for that long that he cannot advise the PAX, then I doubt he could handle the dead stick landing."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
baign32 0 #75 June 1, 2011 Quote Quote One of the scariest loads i have been on was when a twin otter lost an engine. Same scenario the pilot never gave us a go to get out. So all in all we stayed packed in the otter and landed with one engine......scary situation. I myself wanted out , afterwards the pilot said "i guess i coulda let you guys out". And yes it would have made it probably easier on the landing. If i was ever in that situation again, i would ask the pilot and tell him i want out.. Now if both engines were not working i would in no way stick around!! Scariest I was on was back in the 70's. They brought in a beech for a local boogie, blew a jug not long after take-off and the guy closest to the door just rolled out...I was about 3rd to the door but about 5th out. Didn't have a whole lotta jumps & I remember looking down thinking FUCK we're LOW! Two little guys wormed right past me...I had a Jerry Bird belly wart with the Velcro opening flap...I 'think' I remember hearing that Velcro ~s l o w l y~ peeling and the pilot-chute finally shooting out...no doubt felt longer than it took. Some people said the exit was 600 feet, but I think we were higher, I was under a 24' flat @ 500, and didn't think to look at my altimeter for bit, until I got my heart beating again. I was also in a 180 that quit shortly after take-off, I was jump-mastering students and was on my knees by the door, maybe 3-400 feet up...the pilot just looked at me and said STAY, he landed safe, I'm glad because it was 'back in the time' before seatbelts and I was kneeling facing forward with no door on! Plane was down and sick, so the beer light was on early...it wasn't cold yet but, never tasted better! I was in a plane crash with 5 jumpers on board in Nowra, Australia March 6th '94. There was never any talk of trying exit the aircraft. The Cessna 206 engine cut out at 300ft on jump assent and during the attempted landing the plane stalled at 50ft over a grass strip just next to the runway. The plane flipped on it's nose after shearing off the nose gear and ended up on it's back. No deaths but lots of broken bones. Me: Broken right leg, back and crushed C6/C7. I was back jumping after 8 weeks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
