Loose chest strap/Cypres fire.

[ripcord4 0]

Why not apply the KISS principle here and just use a B12 snap on the chest strap?

Okay - flame away!

[Zlew 0]

stay away from the flames! My honest, flame free take on it-

1. B-12's still have friction adapters that have to be routed right. The idea is you don't have to fully route them every time...but they still have to be routed correctly or they will fail.

2. They are not fool proof either. The springs and gates can be damaged or broken. You can get fabric stuck in the gate (the gear checks we used to do included snapping the gates to make sure you can hear the metal on metal "click" to insure it wasn't jammed with material). So you still have to check it to make sure it is working/routed properly.

3. They look lame. Like it or not, several things (even if they are safer) in this sport are associated with "old school", dino, uncool types of things. B-12's are on that list.

[Divalent 89]

tkhayes

distractions can kill you, that's the lesson. He sacrificed altitude for what, in the end, was not a real malfunction, or even a serious enough situation to warrant an AAD fire.

However, I'll note that a benefit of this discussion (and a benefit of the guy posting his video) is that those that were uncertain at least *now* know that a disconnected chest strap is not necessarily going to kill you, and that there are simple things you can do to reduce further the risk you face.

It would be interesting to ponder the situation of what to do if you failed to connect your leg straps. I suspect you would discover that error as soon as you left the plane, as the relative wind tries to lift your container off your back. Assuming you were able to cross your arms and hang on, what should you do? (You would have about a minute to try something to fix it.) Anyone think it would be possible to get one reconnected by themselves? With help from a buddy?

[3mpire 0]

I learned a lot from this answer, thank you for sharing

[billvon 2,391]

>The camera is incidental rubbish; it does not distract you continually from the 20 min
>call all the way to exit, 40 mins later.

No, it might distract you for only 10 minutes, or only 5 minutes. Unfortunately those times are the times (getting ready to exit, in the door, getting geared up to go to the plane) when you would otherwise be checking your gear.

Do people forget stuff without cameras? Definitely. Do cameras tempt you to forget even more stuff? Yes.

[airtwardo 6]

Divalent

***distractions can kill you, that's the lesson. He sacrificed altitude for what, in the end, was not a real malfunction, or even a serious enough situation to warrant an AAD fire.

However, I'll note that a benefit of this discussion (and a benefit of the guy posting his video) is that those that were uncertain at least *now* know that a disconnected chest strap is not necessarily going to kill you, and that there are simple things you can do to reduce further the risk you face.

It would be interesting to ponder the situation of what to do if you failed to connect your leg straps. I suspect you would discover that error as soon as you left the plane, as the relative wind tries to lift your container off your back. Assuming you were able to cross your arms and hang on, what should you do? (You would have about a minute to try something to fix it.) Anyone think it would be possible to get one reconnected by themselves? With help from a buddy?

If you're in a wingsuit...it's over.

Gear checks are cool!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[mr2mk1g 10]

airtwardo

******distractions can kill you, that's the lesson. He sacrificed altitude for what, in the end, was not a real malfunction, or even a serious enough situation to warrant an AAD fire.

However, I'll note that a benefit of this discussion (and a benefit of the guy posting his video) is that those that were uncertain at least *now* know that a disconnected chest strap is not necessarily going to kill you, and that there are simple things you can do to reduce further the risk you face.

It would be interesting to ponder the situation of what to do if you failed to connect your leg straps. I suspect you would discover that error as soon as you left the plane, as the relative wind tries to lift your container off your back. Assuming you were able to cross your arms and hang on, what should you do? (You would have about a minute to try something to fix it.) Anyone think it would be possible to get one reconnected by themselves? With help from a buddy?

If you're in a wingsuit...it's over.

Gear checks are cool!

Actually, I was on the ground once at Perris when a guy came down after opening in a wingsuit without his legstraps on. Suit took the load rather happily for him. Hardly recommended though!

Either that or it's time to start scanning the horizon for a large pile of boxes.

[airtwardo 6]

Zlew

stay away from the flames! My honest, flame free take on it-

1. B-12's still have friction adapters that have to be routed right. The idea is you don't have to fully route them every time...but they still have to be routed correctly or they will fail.

2. They are not fool proof either. The springs and gates can be damaged or broken. You can get fabric stuck in the gate (the gear checks we used to do included snapping the gates to make sure you can hear the metal on metal "click" to insure it wasn't jammed with material). So you still have to check it to make sure it is working/routed properly.

3. They look lame. Like it or not, several things (even if they are safer) in this sport are associated with "old school", dino, uncool types of things. B-12's are on that list.

Well...

Yes they have a friction adapter, once the webbing is routed through it at the factory, there really isn't a reason to take it out of there. So making sure you snap the B12 and tightening the webbing is all there is to it.

And yup ~ I know I'm a dinosaur, but I've had B12 (or QE's) on every rig I've ever owned.

I tend to take pretty good care of my gear & I've never had a problem with a spring or a gate or anything else on the hardware. Yes I know it's possible, I've seen it on rigs the were not taken care of - dragged around, stepped on etc.

Easy put on and take off...especially if you're in water or otherwise limited in movement. (think upside down airplane in a field, and crawling out a side window)

The 'real' reason you don't see them that often these days is they add 150.00 to the cost of the rig, and they add some weight. ~ you know, like with real reserve ripcords.

If ya could paint B12's pink and etch cute little saying on them the tide would turn & all the cool-kids would sporting them...heck that worked with replacing ripcords with tiny little slippery soft handles!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[wmw999 2,119]

I like Twardo's answer. Be sure enough of yourself to know that you won't do that.

My gear doesn't get put halfway on. The first thing I do is put on the leg straps, then the chest strap. Then I tighten them reasonably. I might have to loosen them later, but this way the default configuration is survivable. If I pass out on the way to altitude and they throw my ass out because the plane loses a wing, I won't fall out of my harness.

Remember that you're jumping out of an airplane. Participate in it as much as possible -- own your equipment, own your knowledge, own your procedures. Don't trust shit to back you up, have your own back.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[airtwardo 6]

mr2mk1g

*********distractions can kill you, that's the lesson. He sacrificed altitude for what, in the end, was not a real malfunction, or even a serious enough situation to warrant an AAD fire.

However, I'll note that a benefit of this discussion (and a benefit of the guy posting his video) is that those that were uncertain at least *now* know that a disconnected chest strap is not necessarily going to kill you, and that there are simple things you can do to reduce further the risk you face.

It would be interesting to ponder the situation of what to do if you failed to connect your leg straps. I suspect you would discover that error as soon as you left the plane, as the relative wind tries to lift your container off your back. Assuming you were able to cross your arms and hang on, what should you do? (You would have about a minute to try something to fix it.) Anyone think it would be possible to get one reconnected by themselves? With help from a buddy?

If you're in a wingsuit...it's over.

Gear checks are cool!

Actually, I was on the ground once at Perris when a guy came down after opening in a wingsuit without his legstraps on. Suit took the load rather happily for him. Hardly recommended though!

Either that or it's time to start scanning the horizon for a large pile of boxes.

The guy in Florida wasn't so lucky.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Ron 7]

Quote

Can you please extend on this as my understanding of the language and what is written here makes me imagine things that I cannot even comprehend.

He is talking about the fatality in NC where a jumper got on a plane and filmed a tandem without wearing a rig. At pull time the video person tried to pull and then realized he had no rig on....

I talked to the TM. He said he realized that the video person didn't have a rig on, but there was nothing he could of done and if the video person knew he didn't have a rig he might of tried to attach himself to the tandem pair (it is what I would of done)... Risking all three lives.

This is not the only case of someone forgetting to put on their gear. I know a cameraman personally that walked to the plane carrying only his camera helmet and it was not until someone asked where his rig was that he realized he didn't have it.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[tristansdad 0]

You refering to the guy from Sebastion? I thought it was his legs straps he forgot to attach?

[Ron 7]

Quote

I can't even understand why that thought didn't cross his mind. How does one NOT do at least one gear check before getting out of the damn plane? It's not that hard or time consuming!

In my case I did give myself a gear check.... It was just a terrible one. I had 30 jumps and just flat out screwed up.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[airtwardo 6]

tristansdad

You referring to the guy from Sebastian? I thought it was his legs straps he forgot to attach?

It was...that's what I was addressing in my post.

There was a question regarding attaching leg straps in freefall...

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[grimmie 173]

I hope this jumper learned a very valuable lesseon...

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A ROUTINE SKYDIVE!

Anytime we get in the plane for a jump, be it a 300 way, a wingsuit jump, a 2 way or a hop and pop, always remember, gravity rules and don't ever get complacent.


Some people have 1,000 jumps. Some people have the same jump 1,000 times.

[Zlew 0]

wmw999

IMy gear doesn't get put halfway on. The first thing I do is put on the leg straps, then the chest strap. Then I tighten them reasonably.

Similar setup for me. When I was learning to do gear checks, a buddy told me the your leg s traps and chest straps are critical. If your RSL is connected correctly or not won't matter if you fall out of the harness.

When I put my gear on, I do it in one step...and without distraction. I get my chest strap and legs done up first without moving/walking/ talking/ fucking with my camera, wings etc. Even on back to backs, you will see me standing and getting those done correctly before hauling ass to the mockup or plane. I don't gear up in the loading area, or leave things loose (or off) until i'm on the plane. That's just me, and I know lots of folks who walk around with loose leg straps, or undone chest straps until they get on/near the plane (to each their own) ...but getting the harness on and not correctly and fully is high priority.

[JackC1 0]

billvon

>The camera is incidental rubbish; it does not distract you continually from the 20 min
>call all the way to exit, 40 mins later.

No, it might distract you for only 10 minutes, or only 5 minutes. Unfortunately those times are the times (getting ready to exit, in the door, getting geared up to go to the plane) when you would otherwise be checking your gear.

I'm not buying, not in this case. If you are waiting till 5 mins before exit to put your rig on, you screwed up big time. That stuff should be squared away before you even get on the plane.

But you're right that cameras are a distraction. They're distracting people right now in this thread away from the real cause of this incident which was piss poor personal admin prior to boarding.

Put your gear on, get a kit check, then get on the plane.

[DSE 3]

tristansdad

You refering to the guy from Sebastion? I thought it was his legs straps he forgot to attach?

He didn't forget to 'attach' them, his legs weren't in them and the coach failed to do a gear check.

On a flip note, there is one fulltime, professional skydiver out there who will no longer speak to me, because as he was getting on the plane for an AFF jump, I said "how about you put your legs in the legstrap and do up your cheststrap before boarding. Probably a good idea to set an example for the student, right?" For some, it's a sign of 'cool' to get on the plane without actually being ready to exit.
Nonchalance is complacency packaged in the form of arrogance.

[airtwardo 6]

JackC1

***>The camera is incidental rubbish; it does not distract you continually from the 20 min
>call all the way to exit, 40 mins later.

No, it might distract you for only 10 minutes, or only 5 minutes. Unfortunately those times are the times (getting ready to exit, in the door, getting geared up to go to the plane) when you would otherwise be checking your gear.

I'm not buying, not in this case. If you are waiting till 5 mins before exit to put your rig on, you screwed up big time. That stuff should be squared away before you even get on the plane.

But you're right that cameras are a distraction. They're distracting people right now in this thread away from the real cause of this incident which was piss poor personal admin prior to boarding.

Put your gear on, get a kit check, then get on the plane.


I know where you're coming from and I agree - to an extent.

You in fact, kind of help make the point here...

Nobody is 'born' able to do this sport well, we all train.

Everyone trains in the basics of survival to start, that means developing good habits & being constantly vigil - initiating yourself into the culture of safety takes time and practice - repetition is obviously the way it's done.

Once 'we' have the basics of survival down pat, we tend to branch off into whatever areas of interest may attract us.

We then train for that - usually with the help of team coaches, instructors, demo jumpers..whatever it may be.

We usually take baby steps at first and progress along as our skill level increases...but what ever the arena - the basic skills are solidly in place before taking on any new challenge.

THAT'S all we are saying when the camera issue comes up...get rock solid on everything ELSE first.

Then get some actual training on how to add that additional element to the jump. How to do it so that it will have the least impact on the basic survival thing, what the additional hazards are and how to handle them.

Some people CAN do it and not have a problem...but not everyone.

It just makes sense to set a standard for 'all' to follow that will in all likelihood, positively affect 'everyone'.

So I'm agreement with you on the 'camera didn't cause' the problems we're discussing here...not directly it didn't.

It did however add an extra element to the skydive.

How MUCH of a factor that element was in this case, can be debated ad nauseum - but we have video proof that for this particular jumper - the basics were neglected.

~ ANY 'additional factor impact' was enough to create a chain of events that could have killed him.

The multitude of errors here are both shocking & enlightening.

I would sit this guy down for a while retraining him hard on the basics & evaluating his skill level...there are obviously problems there right now.

But it does also say something about how far the sport has progressed in the past 20-25 years...'back in the day' this guy would be right now - in a box.

But then again, back in the day - the people were different, the training was different, the progression was slower & a 'small camera' weighed 5 pounds...back then this type of 'distraction' issue really didn't come up this often.


Anybody can get 'distracted'...the very definition of the word points to not realizing it when it happens.

More & more we're seeing recorded evidence that it is a factor and does have an effect.

Case in point that I personally witnessed last year ended humorously instead of tragically...but it did serve to open some eyes.

Jumping a large airshow last summer - GoPro was there in force selling like mad. They offered every performer a camera or two to use during their performances during the week long event...they would download the chip and show the 'product' in their sales booth.

By the third day of the airshow the 'Air-Boss' said emphatically in the morning pre-show briefing ~ 'remove those fucking cameras from your aircraft, they are a distraction and are causing problems' ~ there was no discussion, but it was known acts were being flown differently to get 'good footage'.

In 'our' case...they gave us a dozen units.

I've jumped cameras for years - sometimes as a job, but most often as an 'added thing' to get a few seconds if possible during a demo performance. - anyone seeing MY vids can tell you I most definitely 'just' turn it on and forget it there, real crappy stuff -

I had a briefing for several on the demo team who'd never jumped a camera before...I covered everything from how to turn it on, snags, exits...most importantly DISTRACTION.

Sure enough...a friend I've done demos with for 35 years, slaps one on & while landing in front of 70,000 people - goes face first into a taxiway drainage ditch full of rancid scum water a foot deep.

The very FIRST thing you hear on the video following aquaman crawling out of that shit...is 'It's okay, it's waterproof'

Distracted by trying to film his approaching shadow to the LZ...after the most embarrassing landing of his career ~~ first thought is of the camera.

IF it can happen to HIM...it can happen to a 50 jump wonder just as easily if not more so.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[JeffCa 0]

airtwardo

And yup ~ I know I'm a dinosaur, but I've had B12 (or QE's) on every rig I've ever owned.

The 'real' reason you don't see them that often these days is they add 150.00 to the cost of the rig, and they add some weight. ~ you know, like with real reserve ripcords.

If ya could paint B12's pink and etch cute little saying on them the tide would turn & all the cool-kids would sporting them...

Wait a minute..... I did some research months ago about B12's, and found comments on this board such as, "not recommended for most jumpers", "another potential failure point", "only for the physically handicapped who can not do step-through harnesses", etc. THAT'S why I dismissed them. Do some of you actually prefer them?

And somebody just wrote that they tighten the leg straps before the chest strap. I used to do it that way until just last weekend, when a more experienced jumper (still low-time, but more experienced than me) suggested to always do the chest strap first because of the way the position of the rig changes on your body when the leg straps are tight, or something like that. Is there an accepted "correct" sequence to do this in?

"So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

[wmw999 2,119]

As far as I know, the accepted correct sequence is the one that has the rig fitting you correctly, in a way that it won't shift around in the plane or in freefall.

How you get it there is kind of up to you. Finding a consistent way is good. Different harnesses fit differently, too.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Zlew 0]

Yes. Some prefer them...and they do have some nice things about them. You will never see someone fall over gearing up when they are doing the one legged balance hop to get their leg through their leg straps. Easy to remove in the landing area to walk in. The risk of twisting a strap doesn't matter as much now that leg mounted PC's have go the way of the B-12...wait...strike that.

Usually see them on legstraps (chest straps seem more uncommon)
As A jump master I liked them because they made gearing up students easy. The biggest drawback that I know of is just the cost and uncool factor.

For the sequence- I find the rig is more comfortable if I get the chest strap tight first. Even more so if it is a rig where the laterals are not the best length for you.

[airtwardo 6]

JeffCa

***And yup ~ I know I'm a dinosaur, but I've had B12 (or QE's) on every rig I've ever owned.

The 'real' reason you don't see them that often these days is they add 150.00 to the cost of the rig, and they add some weight. ~ you know, like with real reserve ripcords.

If ya could paint B12's pink and etch cute little saying on them the tide would turn & all the cool-kids would sporting them...

Wait a minute..... I did some research months ago about B12's, and found comments on this board such as, "not recommended for most jumpers", "another potential failure point", "only for the physically handicapped who can not do step-through harnesses", etc. THAT'S why I dismissed them. Do some of you actually prefer them?

And somebody just wrote that they tighten the leg straps before the chest strap. I used to do it that way until just last weekend, when a more experienced jumper (still low-time, but more experienced than me) suggested to always do the chest strap first because of the way the position of the rig changes on your body when the leg straps are tight, or something like that. Is there an accepted "correct" sequence to do this in?

Opinions and preferences vary...I've never had a problem with B12's. I like the ease of putting them on and taking them off - and in my case it has nothing to do with flexibility.

From a manufacturer's point of view, they take more time and work to instal. They raise the price of the rig.

And since the trend is for step-throughs, re-sale value may be affected...none of that matter to me.

As far as a failure point...that's bullshit.

Pilot emergency rigs have 'em, military gear does...for years IT was the trend, so most every rig back then had them - - - I've never seen or heard of a B12 'failing'.

As far as order of straps - opinions also vary.

On a good fitting custom rig - chest strap 1st works well...but remember, the leg straps are what's holding you in and take the most all the force on opening.

If they are too loose you will bottom out that slack and the chest strap will be around your neck.

Personally I do the leg straps 1st...but I'm pretty tall and my rig fits weird anyway. I crank the leg straps as tight as I can then bend forward and 'shrug' the rig into place. My concern with the chest strap is not too loose - not too tight.

Too loose and the rig flys me in freefall. Too tight and the canopy doesn't fly as well...I'm an old fart that doesn't swoop, I leave it alone under canopy.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Remster 24]

Quote

Is there an accepted "correct" sequence to do this in?

It depends on the rig.

Remster

[CSpenceFLY 1]

Ron

Quote

Can you please extend on this as my understanding of the language and what is written here makes me imagine things that I cannot even comprehend.

He is talking about the fatality in NC where a jumper got on a plane and filmed a tandem without wearing a rig. At pull time the video person tried to pull and then realized he had no rig on....

I talked to the TM. He said he realized that the video person didn't have a rig on, but there was nothing he could of done and if the video person knew he didn't have a rig he might of tried to attach himself to the tandem pair (it is what I would of done)... Risking all three lives.

This is not the only case of someone forgetting to put on their gear. I know a cameraman personally that walked to the plane carrying only his camera helmet and it was not until someone asked where his rig was that he realized he didn't have it.

I did this very thing once. My rig was not ready when I would have started my normal gearing up. And still wasn't ready when I needed to shoot the video of the tandem walking to and boarding. I knew I didn't have my rig on when I started shooting but habit had me start climbing the ladder after the tandem. Of course someone said something.

I checked my gear enough that there is no way I would have made it to even taxi much less all the way to altitude but I appreciate someone noticing. I still say when something like this happens it is a failure of everyone around. I understand it may have looked like it was routed correctly, but take an extra second and look at the people near you. I've caught several over the years and pissed a few people off that were trying to board the plane without there gear in order.