DcloudZ 0 #26 June 4, 2013 I wonder what caused this jumper to think that he had absolutely no other choice but to re-route the chest strap before opening? Perhaps there is a lack of training for this type of situation. What can we do to educate jumpers about smaller emergencies such as these so that people react the right way when faced with these types of situations?"Better to have a short life that is full of what you like doing than a long life spent in a miserable way." -Alan Watts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #27 June 4, 2013 QuoteI wonder what caused this jumper to think that he had absolutely no other choice but to re-route the chest strap before opening Because so many people equate chest strap undone with falling out of the harness. Opening with a chest strap undone is not a death sentence.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DcloudZ 0 #28 June 4, 2013 RemsterQuoteI wonder what caused this jumper to think that he had absolutely no other choice but to re-route the chest strap before opening Because so many people equate chest strap undone with falling out of the harness. Opening with a chest strap undone is not a death sentence. That's what I'm trying to say. How can we change this? Seems like there was a lack of training in this specific circumstance. Perhaps it's more widespread."Better to have a short life that is full of what you like doing than a long life spent in a miserable way." -Alan Watts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #29 June 4, 2013 QuoteI wonder what caused this jumper to think that he had absolutely no other choice but to re-route the chest strap before opening? Perhaps there is a lack of training for this type of situation. Panic. He most likely thought he would fall to his death if it was not fastened. It never occurred to him that he could have been so stupid as to not fasten it, so he never considered what he would do if it was not done. His brain automatically made the jump that it HAS to be done and he almost died trying to attach it. QuoteWhat can we do to educate jumpers about smaller emergencies such as these so that people react the right way when faced with these types of situations? I don't see it as a 'small' emergency. People have fallen to their deaths because they have forgotten to attach the chest strap. What can be done? 1. Focus on proper gear self checks. 2. Remove all un-needed distractions till a person has the basics down (No camera's, no wing suits...etc). 3. Show them this video. It shows we all can be that stupid and that while he was dead if not for the AAD, he still didn't fall out of the harness. This could be a great training tool.... Show that distractions kill and that it is very easy for your brain to focus on one smaller problem while a large planet hits you."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RiggerLee 61 #30 June 4, 2013 When I was a young student, this would have been around my tenth or twelve'th jump. My instructor noticed that I had my chest strap miss routed. He proceeded to tell me not one but two stories of watching, personally, some one spend there intire life trying to reroute there chest strap in free fall. This was pre cypress, pre go pro and the out come was not pretty. Just saying it's not new, very easy to have happion, nad has killed before. As to the necessaty of the chest strap... It appears to me that he took the opening shock cradeled on his back by the rig. Which might explane why he was not dumped out. I don't know what would have happioned if it had fired with him on his belly and I'm not drawing any conclusions about the need for the chest strap. LeeLee [email protected] www.velocitysportswear.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 622 #31 June 4, 2013 Why can't the manufacturers make my chest strap with a click button and a red light I ask fellow jumpers to make sure is lit??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #32 June 4, 2013 QuoteAs to the necessaty of the chest strap... It appears to me that he took the opening shock cradeled on his back by the rig. Which might explane why he was not dumped out. I don't know what would have happioned if it had fired with him on his belly and I'm not drawing any conclusions about the need for the chest strap. I have heard stories about people being dumped out, but I have also heard stories where they survived and personally seen a guy land with his chest strap not done. The point being that the best 'fix' is to make damn sure it is correctly routed. And if you find yourself in freefall and it is not correctly routed - Don't spend the rest of your life trying to route it."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
carbonezone 0 #33 June 4, 2013 Quote I will ask anyone who doesn't already have to plan of action to deal with an undone chest strap in freefall come up with one now and discuss it here. How to deal with it is NOT to deal with it...take ONE FUCKING SECOND OF YOUR FUCKING WORTHLESS ASS TO CHECK IT, ONCE, TWICE, OR WHAT THE HELL THREE TIMES Tami C. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #34 June 4, 2013 QuoteWhat can we do to educate jumpers about smaller emergencies such as these so that people react the right way when faced with these types of situations? Maybe we could post a video of a bad situation with a chest strap and then open up a discussion about 1) proper prevention and 2) proper reaction.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #35 June 4, 2013 normiss Why can't the manufacturers make my chest strap with a click button and a red light I ask fellow jumpers to make sure is lit??? now there's right course of action! “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,120 #36 June 4, 2013 If more people actually thought about how their gear works (rather than just putting it into "the approved configuration") it would help. Harness geometry is there for a reason; the pins are there for a reason; the PC pocket is there for a reason. When you thoroughly understand and internalize that reason, then it's easier both to remember to keep it in configuration, and also to deal with it if it's out. As examples -- your reserve handle breaks, what do you do? Why (and how) do you keep your risers flexible for the 3-ring? How do you make sure your reserve handle stays where it is? What do you do if you can't find your cutaway handle? There are plenty of other questions that can be very urgent if you're in freefall (and of varying degrees of likelihood). But if you become really familiar with your gear, and don't just treat it like some monolithic being that has to be exactly according to someone's specs or you're going to ddddiiiieeee, you'll always be ahead of the game. The bar to entry is lowering, with packers, and the abundance of used gear out there. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RyanFYF 0 #37 June 4, 2013 that's my home DZ. I gotta keep an eye out for that jumpsuit lol. Stay away from him for a while Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,047 #38 June 4, 2013 Hi woppy, QuoteUnder normal operation doesn't the chest strap only have to withstand about 15lbs of pressure? It has been many years ago, but IIRC, there was a female jumper in Italy who had her chest strap torn out on opening shock. She then fell out of the harness. I would find it very unusual that a chest strap could be torn out of a harness, even an old ratty one, at only 15 lbs of loading. As of now, I do not think that anyone has any numbers as to what loads are put onto a chest strap during opening shock. QuoteI can't recall where I once heard that figure from... Skydiving, as with many activities, is rampant with rumors. IMO take what 'you hear' with a large grain of salt. JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 370 #39 June 4, 2013 labrysI'm not going to criticize him. There will be plenty of that to follow, I'm sure. I will ask anyone who doesn't already have to plan of action to deal with an undone chest strap in freefall come up with one now and discuss it here. The plan is simple. Deploy normally. If it makes you feel better, sit up a bit as the canopy pulls up your shoulders and cross your arms over your chest. Unless you allow your arms to be pulled pretty far back - which I suppose could happen if the canopy opens really hard - the deployment should be normal. An unbuckled chest strap shouldn't freak you out. Just get some nylon over your head and get a f*ckin' gear check BY SOMEONE ELSE next time.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crotalus01 0 #40 June 4, 2013 I get not letting folks grab your harness etc on a normal RW jump, but what about hybrids? Every hybrid I have been on someone is hanging from chest and/or legstraps...... As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #41 June 4, 2013 QuoteI get not letting folks grab your harness etc on a normal RW jump, but what about hybrids? Every hybrid I have been on someone is hanging from chest and/or legstraps...... I don't fly in the base on hybrids. I also don't do MR Bill jumps. Or horny gorillas. Or anything where someone wants to grab my harness. I manage to get by just fine being a skydiver and not doing those things, and so could others. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #42 June 4, 2013 davelepkaQuoteI get not letting folks grab your harness etc on a normal RW jump, but what about hybrids? Every hybrid I have been on someone is hanging from chest and/or legstraps...... I don't fly in the base on hybrids. I also don't do MR Bill jumps. Or horny gorillas. Or anything where someone wants to grab my harness. I manage to get by just fine being a skydiver and not doing those things, and so could others. Come on Dave. Legstrap (yes, they are part of the harness) holds are standard for 8way launches and tailgate launches.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 1,905 #43 June 4, 2013 What this video really shows is the danger of flying camera before you are ready. How much attention do you think dude devoted to he camera on the ride up? But not enough to basic gear checks. But the major thing is that because there is video, we all get to see how poorly he handled the situation and trash him. Without the vid he could have made up some excuse for the AAD fire. But no, now the whole Dizzy world knows the truth. Just another reason to get some experience before adding complications. KenAlways remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JeffCa 0 #44 June 4, 2013 gowlerk But the major thing is that because there is video, we all get to see how poorly he handled the situation and trash him. Without the vid he could have made up some excuse for the AAD fire. But no, now the whole Dizzy world knows the truth. Ken Unless I'm missing something about how this video got online, he deserves some credit for posting it so that others might learn. He could have suppressed it and made an excuse. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #45 June 4, 2013 QuoteCome on Dave. Legstrap (yes, they are part of the harness) holds are standard for 8way launches and tailgate launches. I know. Harness grips are part of many different types of skydiving, just not my type of skydiving. I'm not suggesting that everyone should do it my way, just that it is possible to do it my way, and still skydive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fallfast69 2 #46 June 4, 2013 Not at you JeffCa One thing I've seen people do is to route the chest strap through the main buckle to dirt dive, or especially newer jumpers, just to wear a new rig around. Whether it's around the house or anywhere to practice EP's or whatever. It is a bad idea to get into this habit, it's like "practicing" to mis-route your chest strap. Take the extra few seconds to put on your rig COMPLETELY anytime you wear it. And for Christs sake, check your gear like your friggin life depends on it...duh Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CSpenceFLY 1 #47 June 4, 2013 DcloudZ***QuoteI wonder what caused this jumper to think that he had absolutely no other choice but to re-route the chest strap before opening Because so many people equate chest strap undone with falling out of the harness. Opening with a chest strap undone is not a death sentence. That's what I'm trying to say. How can we change this? Seems like there was a lack of training in this specific circumstance. Perhaps it's more widespread. We used to have a program where new jumpers jumped with old timers and learned stuff like this from hanging around the dz. Now, they pay to jump with 100 jump wonders and leave the dz as soon as they are done jumping. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
woppyvac 0 #48 June 4, 2013 JerryBaumchenHi woppy, QuoteUnder normal operation doesn't the chest strap only have to withstand about 15lbs of pressure? It has been many years ago, but IIRC, there was a female jumper in Italy who had her chest strap torn out on opening shock. She then fell out of the harness. I would find it very unusual that a chest strap could be torn out of a harness, even an old ratty one, at only 15 lbs of loading. As of now, I do not think that anyone has any numbers as to what loads are put onto a chest strap during opening shock. ***I can't recall where I once heard that figure from... Skydiving, as with many activities, is rampant with rumors. IMO take what 'you hear' with a large grain of salt. JerryBaumchen I actually think that figure (15lbs of preassure) came outa researching the benefits/losses of smaller chest straps vs. the larger straps when ordering my last container. I opted for larger webbing vs the smaller option. Wonder if the manufacturer would have a answer. Ty guys.Woot Woot! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,381 #49 June 5, 2013 davelepka The procedure is to pull and then cross your arms in front of your chest. Some people suggest grabbing your harness on either side, but that seem like a tough grab to make mid-deployment. An easier grab would be grab each arm just above the elbow, as you have a much easier time of both hands finding both of your arms (you know where all of those parts are) as opposed to both hands trying to grab two things that are not attached to your body. The idea is that having your arms in front of your body will 'lock' the MLW in place, much like a chest strap. However, do not alter your pull procedure. A chest strap comes into play on a hard or head low opening, otherwise it's really just a 'back up' device to the natural geometry of the harness. This is one reason why the hardware is so flimsy, they just don't take much of a load. Either way, trying to grab your harness with your left hand or crossing your left hand before the deployment will remove the lift created by having that hand up over your head, and guarantee you a head low opening. So do your 'normal' pull procedure, and once the PC is tossed, keep your right arm moving up toward your chest, pull your left arm in to meet it, and grab your elbows. Been there; Done that; And did pretty much what Dave describes. It wasn't that I forgot something; It was a harness modified to be a test jump rig with 3 canopies. The 3rd canopy, (the one being tested), was in a front-mount container. It was deployed from a back-to-earth position. If the test canopy was cutaway, the jumper was left with a normal main+reserve system. Unfortunately, the modification put the attachment point in the same stitching as the chest-strap. After a number of successful jumps, one day a deployment ripped off one of the attachment points, taking half of the chest strap with it, and leaving me with 1/2 canopy. I cutaway the remaining attachment point, went belly-to-earth, (test canopy had been deployed high), threw the PC, and gave myself a bear-hug through the main deployment."There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #50 June 5, 2013 QuoteI actually think that figure (15lbs of preassure) came outa researching the benefits/losses of smaller chest straps vs. the larger straps when ordering my last container. I opted for larger webbing vs the smaller option. Wonder if the manufacturer would have a answer. I talked to Booth about this back in 2002. He told me that there were two forces to consider (I can't recall the names he used). One was force applied outward against the entire width of the webbing, the other was like a tearing force. The tearing force was remarkably low IIRC, the other was higher. Due to the slim chance of tearing forces.... He would not make small chest straps."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites