student accident

[stevebabin 0]

Hi Don!
It's good to hear that you're doing so well!
I have to take issue with the following statement:

Quote

and a sport that's generally safer than driving to the airport.

Skydiving is in no way, shape or form safer than driving. If you conduct a poll within our relatively small community, you would find a myriad of injuries, by many of the participants. I have had more friends than I can recall over my 20 years in the sport break femurs, or wind up with other serious injuries. Hell, 4 of the 5 years I went to Quincy I went to the Blessing Memorial Hospital to care for injured friends.
You're not the first skydiver to use the "safer than driving" analogy, and I cringe every time it is used. This is skydiving, not bowling. People can and do get seriously injured all the time.
End of rant, sorry if it was a bit much. Again, it's good to hear from you.
Blue Skies....(you know the rest.)
Steve

"Science, logic and reason will fly you to the moon. Religion will fly you into buildings."
"Because figuring things out is always better than making shit up."

[skydivedon 0]

Hey Steve,
Hope all is well with you and yours during this holiday season. No problem with the issue you raised. It was merely a way of saying that it's a lot safer sport these days than the media makes it out to be. It most certainly is a dangerous sport that needs good instruction and a person with a good head on their shoulders to participate in safely.

Oh, and drive crazily, there are a lot of careful people out there... take care!

[scottmyers 0]

Ya know, first up. I have jumped before and got good training for a tandem jump at Skydive Texas. Secondly, ya gotta hand it to the media for doing their part in "sensationalizing" this story. I didn't know "the story behind the story" until reading this thread.

Lastly, I just wished someone else like say an "Inside Edition" or "A Current Affair"-type show would expose this whole story from beginning to end...and that THE WHOLE ENTIRE TRUTH would be told, not what the nation needs to be told! Period.

There.....finished with my thoughts. I'll go back lurking and surfing the Internet. Blue Skies to one and all!

Scott

Gig em, Garland Owls!

[Remster 24]

Quote

I still have a problem with why the reserve was screwed up when it opened.

Then you should question if you want to continue skydiving. Having a reserve repacked every 180, 120 or every week par a rigger does not garrantee it will work.

It may open with a small, correctable issue (and this may have been the case, but since the sudent never pumped the brakes as we are though in FJC for a slidder that wont come down) we 'll never know.

It may open with a lineover you may have to ride to the ground. It may just plain not open at all.

If you havent read all the posts about this accident, you may have missed that the equipment was inspected and nothing wrong with the reserve was found.

Remster

[skydivedon 0]

No question that there are no guarantees and I fully accept the risk of skydiving and take that risk freely and have great fun doing it. I read all the posts and understand that there was nothing "wrong" with the equipment. When I say I have a "problem" with it I am saying that something caused it and I'd like to know what it was. I don't like unanswered questions with anything in life, that does not mean that I should discontinue doing anything. I want to know what casued the problem so I, and everyone else, can learn from it. That's what this forum is all about - learning from the incidents that are discussed.

Given that, can anyone who posted earlier, has inspected the equipment and has not posted or who has analyzed the video tell any of us what actually caused that reserve slider to hang-up? If we don't know, that's fine, but I'm very curious.

[SkiD_PL8 0]

The answers to your questions have allready been posted. Neither the FAA or anyone who inspected the gear could determine the reason for the slider hang up. There was a kink in one line but the master rigger that investigated said that even if it had been a tension knot it would not have been enough to hang up the slider.

Greenie in training.

[likearock 1]

Quote

Quote

It was indeed a 190 crammed into a a Reflex sized for a 135. And Chris, if you're thinking of the one that is a Refelx in a gawd-awful shade of pink, it's that one.

The 190 crammed into a smaller container doesnt bother me as much as what size reserve was in there. You can fit a much larger main in the main tray (I wouldnt recommend it, and it would be one ugly pack job) but that part doesnt scare me too much. Its the reserve...

Does some one KNOW what was the reserve?

I agree that that's the single most glaring piece of missing information here. And a very important one. I'm beginning to wonder if we'll have to wait for the Parachutist report to find out.

[NelKel 0]

IF .......someone would give us the model # we could size what reserve canopies would fit that container and then tell what the wingloading was.

IOW like a J-3 or a W-10 etc.......

_________________________________________

Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan

[caico.katie 0]

Well guys and gals, I told my sister a little of what was being said here thinking maybe it would make a positive difference somehow, somewhere, someday...
this is the letter I got back from her:

Dear Kathy,

There is such a thing as an accident, which by definition means "not intentional: a mishap". In our world of blamming and law suits Shayna has chosen to take responsibilty for her own actions. How refreshing!

As long as there are gossips there will be gossip. It used to be old ladies in beauty shops with nothing better to do. Now it is faceless keyborders on the internet with nothing better to do. And all this is simply the opinions of people who must themselves be infalable, perfect individuals? Their babble does not change what happened and they will soon move on to analyse and discuss someone else's life circumstances. Our society is great at pointing a finger of blame and "Monday morning quaterbacking" after the fact.

Shayna was asked to tell her story. That is what she has done.

If there is anyone out there that has not done anything foolish in their lives then they have probably had a pretty dull existance. Most of the time we have little or no reprecussions and live to tell our children of the silly things we did. Many times it is young people drinking and driving that not only take themselves out but others as well.

Shayna made the dive, she got hurt, she lived and we are thankful. She has granted all these interviews and turned down dozens for every one she has done. People are interested. So many just find the story facinating. She has recieved no monetary compensation and most of the general public is looking at the big picture. The one of her miraculous survival of what could have been a fatal accident.
And like Mom always taught us, "sticks and stones (or in Shayna's case asphalt) may break our bones but words may never hurt me (us)".

Please copy and paste this to any of those sites full of people with nothing better to do than look for anything ugly or negative to say about this accident, Shayna or Rick. What I see is that my only daughter is alive and therefore I must be thankful.

I will continue to my blessings.

Love,
Rebecca (Shayna's mom)
- Show quoted text -

My addition to this: My mom was so wrong --WORDS CAN HURT.

I just felt like that should be added.

By posting this I am not agreeing with what my sister says, I am just posting it because she asked me to.

[NelKel 0]

She is right nothing will change the outcome of this incident, but it is really sad that with all the education out there including these fourms that her Instructor will probably continue his carrer, and probably hurt someone else because of some mother was bilnded by her own ignorance to stop him. Skydivers regulate skydivers, the FAA gives us that because we have the USPA who governs us. According to reports published in this fourm her instructor broke a few rules, that chain of events we always talk about...which lead up to this incident.

It realy makes me wonder if she would have been killed would her mother still feel the same way....lucky she is still alive, or would she be looking to place blame for neglagence. To any receint Instructor out there and perticulary to all CCD we all know that we are responsibal for the safty of our students. Beyond waivers, beyond DZO's or S&TA's We all know that we can be held personaly responsably when we endanger our syudents. If we look the othrer way in this incident then we are no better that the culpert. This student didn't know better, she trusted her Instructor as all students do, and if we do not hold ourself to higher standards, then we are no better that this guy who HAD TO KNOW HE WAS BREAKING THE RULES. The same rules we govern ourselves with. I try to behave in a professional manner when dealng with students/clients. I know there is a segment of our population that dosn't care about that, this is an example of what can happen and I hope we all take note,
The attitude that if it dosn't kill you makes you stronger is hype in this situation, if we do not take care of our students then we risk the future of our sport.

end rant.......

_________________________________________

Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan

[Michele 1]

Katie, can you please forward this note to Rebecca? And also realize that this will be my only contribution to this thread. Thanks! (And the best wishes at the bottom include you).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dear Rebecca:

I'm one of those "gossiping", "nothing better to do" people on the site where the accident is being discussed. Realizing, and respecting, that your daughter has survived a horrific accident, I say "thank God."

I also thank God for the lessons being learned - and relearned - here, not just in my personal case, but others that are expanding their knowledge base because of Shayna's accident.

We are learning - and relearning:

- that instructors who date their students tend to place them at higher risk than they otherwise would be;
-that if one dropzone doesn't let a student jump, likely there is a good reason for it;
-that wingloading - or the ratio of fabric to body weight - is still a very important consideration, regardless of what level you're at;
-that brakes fire and can turn into a nasty mess fairly quickly if proper action is not taken;
-that reserves can and will malfunction;
-that learning more and more and more about how to fly a canopy is what will let someone survive to fly another day;
-that not quitting might change the outcome;
-that listening to what is being shouted and/or heard in the ear via the radio might just save our lives;
and
-skydiving is a small, compartmentalized community that can often be harsh, direct, and loud, but will always disect and learn from those mistakes of people who've gone before.

I am so very thankful that Shayna lived through it. I am aghast that her instructor (37 years old) didn't know better than to sneak her off to another DZ when the original one said "no." His lack of common sense is astounding, and his callous disregard for your daughter's life has left me even more thankful that those instructors at my DZ are professional, kind, and caring.

I had a cutaway on my third jump. I can completely understand the confusion and the terror which can encroach upon someone when they're suddenly fighting for their life...and I too had a bit of a deal made from my cutaway story. It's not unexpected, especially since Shayna found she was pregnant while in hospital. It's indeed a blessing that she and her child are fine...

The upset that you're hearing about, Rebecca, is because we are all so angry that this happened in the first place. We are also angry that her boyfriend sits there and allows her to say things which damage our sport. Bad press is bad press. Stupidity is stupidity. I don't believe that Shayna has gone out and tried to get the attention...and indeed, as with any 21 year old, is reveling in it to some extent. That is normal. Her boyfriend's acts, behavior, and response is not.

But when the attention dies down, and it will, Shayna will face some hard truths. Not the least of which is that her boyfriend has allowed her to paint such a horrid picture of skydiving to the general public. I can't fault Shayna; she doesn't know any better, being so young and a student. Another truth is that if she continues to skydive, she will need a lot of instruction from professional, competent people before she will be allowed in the air again. And the last truth is that some people shouldn't be teachers of a sport in which you can do everything right and still die.

My very best to you, Shayna, your grandchild, and your family. I hope this Christmas season is the best, most blessed one you experience; it could've been very very different had Shayna not lived.

Best to you,
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[VisionAir 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

It was indeed a 190 crammed into a a Reflex sized for a 135. And Chris, if you're thinking of the one that is a Refelx in a gawd-awful shade of pink, it's that one.

The 190 crammed into a smaller container doesnt bother me as much as what size reserve was in there. You can fit a much larger main in the main tray (I wouldnt recommend it, and it would be one ugly pack job) but that part doesnt scare me too much. Its the reserve...

Does some one KNOW what was the reserve?

I agree that that's the single most glaring piece of missing information here. And a very important one. I'm beginning to wonder if we'll have to wait for the Parachutist report to find out.

I just got off the phone with Rick and he has asked me to make a post. Because he and Shayna are on this whirlwind tour they have been unable to keep up with the four threads about her accident. I described to him what appears to me to be the biggest issues on peoples minds here.
1. Why hasn't the instructor spoke up with his statement? As stated above they've been a little busy. Plus he does not desire to get in any kind of pissing match, and end up posting something hot-headed which he later regrets. He acknowledges his temperment and that this has happened before on my local area members only skydiving forum, and he doesn't want a repeat of that. I suggested to him, that to save his reputation, he should make one simple, factual, well thought out statement to put the general skydiving public's minds to rest by hearing the facts straight from the horse's mouth. He plans to do this as soon as he can.
2. What size was the reserve? According to Rick AND Shayna it was a Tempo 170. So that would mean the rig was a Reflex designed for a 135 main with a Tempo 170 reserve, but a SabreII 190 replaced the main. The oversized main is not an issue in the accident since it opened correctly and flew before the self-induced "malfunction".
3. Why are they on this media tour essentially giving the sport a black eye? I explained to him that alot of people are upset over their idea that an accident in skydiving discussed in the media is thought of as bad press. Even though that is not their intentions, and they are trying to bill this as a survival story, it is still thought of as bad press to those that are cold hearted and don't understand the circumstances. As stated earlier by Katie (Shayna's aunt), and now to me by Rick, they are not making profit on this other then free trips to the shows filming locations. Their main prupose for this media tour is to put the word out of Shayna's medical fund that has been set up to cover the many bills.
He has also requested that people keep their opinions to themselves....i.e. If it was me then I would have blah blah blah. Discussion about facts that are pertinate to training are understandable, but to just throw out slander is not necessary.

Personally I did not want to get involved in this gossip machine other then the one post I had already made about their picture, but he asked me to do this so I did.

Huh?!? What cloud?!? Oh that!!! That's just Industrial Haze
Alex M.

[tso-d_chris 0]

Quote

According to Rick AND Shayna it was a Tempo 170.

That is too small a reserve for an AFF student of Shayna's size. Tempos are smaller than their advertised size, IIRC. Tempos are smaller than a PD (or other reserve measured with PD's method) of the same advertised size. See riggerrob's post below.

It is disheartening to hear of rated instructors with such disregard for student safety.

For Great Deals on Gear

[riggerrob 558]

That is too small a reserve for an AFF student of Shayna's size. Tempos are smaller than their advertised size, IIRC.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Hee!
Hee!
Depends upon which measuring method you use.
Tempos and Swifts are measured by the old PIA method: chord = tail to top leading edge, with span measured slightly aft of the top leading edge.

Performance Designs led the way with another measuring method which still measures chord from the tail to the top leading edge, but measures span across the bottom skin.
ergo: PD canopies tend to be 10% BIGGER than their published numbers.
Hint: canopy "sizes" are written by marketing managers more often than they are written by engineers.

To further confuse the issue, some manufacturers have changed their measuring methods part-way through production.
For example: in 2001 Icarus announced that were changing from PIA to PD canopy measuring methods.
Similarly, when PISA was absorbed by Aerodyne, they changed from PIA to PD measuring methods, so that an old Tempo 150 is actually 10% smaller than a new Smart 150.

But I do agree with your opinon that Tempos 170s are too small for students. The only way one of our students will wear a Tempo 170s is if she is
A: petite
B: has demonstrated a bunch of good landings on larger canopies, and
C: she has almost graduated form our PFF program.

[tso-d_chris 0]

Quote

Depends upon which measuring method you use.
Tempos and Swifts are measured by the old PIA method: chord = tail to top leading edge, with span measured slightly aft of the top leading edge.

Thanks for offering a better explanation.

[VisionAir 0]

Quote

Quote

According to Rick AND Shayna it was a Tempo 170.

That is too small a reserve for an AFF student of Shayna's size. Tempos are smaller than their advertised size, IIRC. Tempos are smaller than a PD (or other reserve measured with PD's method) of the same advertised size. See riggerrob's post below.

It is disheartening to hear of rated instructors with such disregard for student safety.

Not argueing your point but only offering a little more info for better clarification. It was also stated to me in the phone conversation that Shayna weighed 120#. Which would put her reserve w/l at .79 - .82.

Huh?!? What cloud?!? Oh that!!! That's just Industrial Haze
Alex M.

[tso-d_chris 0]

Quote

Not argueing your point but only offering a little more info for better clarification. It was also stated to me in the phone conversation that Shayna weighed 120#. Which would put her reserve w/l at .79 - .82.

120 + 30 lbs for gear = 150lbs ==> ~.9:1 wingloading.

Too high for an AFF student IMO. Things are alreaady going bad when the reserve ripcord is pulled. No need to have a reserve smaller than the main.

For Great Deals on Gear

[VisionAir 0]

Quote

Quote

Not argueing your point but only offering a little more info for better clarification. It was also stated to me in the phone conversation that Shayna weighed 120#. Which would put her reserve w/l at .79 - .82.

120 + 30 lbs for gear = 150lbs ==> ~.9:1 wingloading.

Too high for an AFF student IMO. Things are alreaady going bad when the reserve ripcord is pulled. No need to have a reserve smaller than the main.

I was figuring 15-20 lbs for gear as it wasn't a typical student rig.

Huh?!? What cloud?!? Oh that!!! That's just Industrial Haze
Alex M.

[toronto_bill 0]

Hey Rob,

That was great information. This email is to assure you that someone learned something. Rare for Shayna threads anyway.

I 'assumed' that PISA was the standard. What advantage exactly do the marketers gain by their re-sizing? Sell more canopies I guess but why or how?


00Billy
PST-Baldwin
IA,SSI,TI,C2

[tso-d_chris 0]

Quote

I was figuring 15-20 lbs for gear as it wasn't a typical student rig.

~7 lbs per canopy, ~10lbs for the container, 1 lb for the AAD, plus helmet, goggles, altimeter and jumpsuit is about 30 lbs or so. At least that is the logic behind my 30 lbs. of equipment. Certainly not exact.

[LawnDart21 0]

I've stayed out of this whole series of threads because I didnt want to get involved in an arguement that I didnt have all the facts about. (I still may not have all the facts, but I have to make a comment).

That said, seeing as you are a direct line to the instructor. I have a question for you, one I am sure is fueling alot of angst on this board. All of the news reports that have sensationalized this incident have stated something to the effect that a skydiver survived a "double malfunction". More specifically, that 1st her main malfunctioned and second, her reserve malfunctioned. What I have read on these threads has led me to conclude that her main did not malfunction, rather it reacted exactly as it should have with one break unstowed. The point, her main was a very correctible pilot induced problem. Her main didnt malfunction, she did. It was pilot error, not gear error that caused her main to "malfunction", and it was correctible. That one simple facet of mistruth being sensationalized all over the media, that she survived a "double malfunction", when in truth, she caused the 1st one herself and it was correctible, gives the sport a black eye.

So I would say, I think alot of us would feel better about how this story is being played out in the media, if it contained some degree of truth to the main malfunction. It was pilot (error) induced, in all likelyhood due to less than adequate training from her instructor.

Lastly, I would love for one of the feel good reporters to ask "So, I see you live in Georgia, what made you decide to drive all the way to Alabama to jump that day?" I would love to see that question answered HONESTLY on national television: "We were not allowed to jump together at our local dropzone becuase student/instructor dating is frowned upon becuase it can lead to less than complete training methods, but we didnt like hearing we couldnt do what we wanted to do, so we drove to another DZ, far enough away from our local one so as not to get caught, and did what we were told we couldnt do at our own dz, and this horrible accident was a direct result of that incompetence."

If I heard either of those tidbits, the main didnt actually malfunction, and that they were forbidden to jump together at their local DZ, ie, THE TRUTH, then I think, people wouldnt be so up in arms over this incident.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[psyco_packer 0]

Post by pilotdave:
Yeah, that just doesn't sound right to me. Mine was also designed for a 135 main (I think... a 135 fits perfectly). I barely squeezed an F111 150 main into it. A sabre2 190 wouldn't even come close to fitting in mine. Even with a 150, mine clearly looked overstuffed. I'd often have dbag corners hanging out on the sides of the main flap. Can't imagine what it would have looked like with a ZP 190. Mine was especially bad because the dbag was oversized, but still, I can't see a 190 going into a reflex made for a 135.


I packed the main twice that day and a 190 will fit inside a Reflex sized for a 135.It's a tight fit, but it will.

[SkiD_PL8 0]

I hear that they may be on letterman tonight if anyone is interested.

Greenie in training.

[sitflybaseboy 0]

Quote

Hi Don!
It's good to hear that you're doing so well!
I have to take issue with the following statement:

Quote

and a sport that's generally safer than driving to the airport.

Skydiving is in no way, shape or form safer than driving.

You're not the first skydiver to use the "safer than driving" analogy, and I cringe every time it is used. This is skydiving, not bowling. People can and do get seriously injured all the time.
End of rant, sorry if it was a bit much. Again, it's good to hear from you.
Blue Skies....(you know the rest.)
Steve

It really depends on whose driving and whose skydiving!
321CYA
Sitflybaseboy

BASE 1043 Night BASE 160
BASE is to skydivers as skydiving is to whuffos

[billvon 2,384]

>The oversized main is not an issue in the accident since it opened
>correctly and flew before the self-induced "malfunction".

I once stuffed a huge F111 canopy into my Reflex for a demo. It was ugly as sin, but I figured it only had to stay closed for a few seconds (10 second delay) and then it would be open anyway.

So I jumped, opened, had a more or less normal opening, then looked up to see the lower brakelines tied around each other. I had about 15 seconds of worry (pulling on them, pushing the risers together) before they cleared. In retrospect, since the Reflex's riser covers were so stretched out that they couldn't protect the risers, the brake lines/toggles were exposed to the wind and thus started flopping around; the knot probably happened before I even deployed. (Imagine what would have happened had I had a total . . .)

So large canopies in small containers _can_ lead to brake problems. (I have no idea whether this happened in this case of course.)