40 seconds

[davelepka 4]

There have been quite a few fatalities as of late (way too many), and in the same breath, quite a few threads on here with newbies and low timers arguing over the need for experience or regulation with regards to various aspects of the sport. The juxtaposition of the two made me think of a video clip that, to me, is the single greatest comment on safety and longevity in aviation.

If you don't have 3 minutes to spare for the whole clip, just watch the 40 seconds from 1:15 to 1:55, and then think long and hard how about where you, your choices, and your actions fit into that line of thinking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZBcapxGHjE

For those of you who don't know, the guy in the clip is widely regarded as the greatest pilot of all time, and he flew more planes, for more years, into and out of more places than anyone.

[3mpire 0]

That man is an inspiration. The first time I saw that video I was blown away. That quote you highlighted is timely.

[topdocker 0]

So, if you are doing it right, you never spill your drink!

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Jump more, post less!

[DcloudZ 0]

Wow...

"Better to have a short life that is full of what you like doing than a long life spent in a miserable way." -Alan Watts

[DocPop 1]

Good post, but I am willing to bet that the people you are trying to reach don't think they are pushing the limits as much as they are.

I watched it and thought "I'm fine with my margin for error" but then it occurred to me that I could be deluding myself.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[ryoder 1,381]

topdocker

So, if you are doing it right, you never spill your drink!

top

Obviously, it is the *amateurs* who say: "Hold my beer and watch this!"

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[skyjumpenfool 2]

Great! Now all the "Wonders" are going to be trying to swoop their Velo's while pooring a pitcher of beer.

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[airtwardo 6]

DocPop

Good post, but I am willing to bet that the people you are trying to reach don't think they are pushing the limits as much as they are.

I watched it and thought "I'm fine with my margin for error" but then it occurred to me that I could be deluding myself.

Here's the thing ~ It's to a great extent 'an odds game'.

The variables one adds that increase the odds of death or injury are fluid to say the least.

Odds are a less experienced jumper, not trained well, who is pushing the envelope... will find themselves in a situation they are not capable of handling. That's not rocket science.

As one gains experience, they need to be honest with themselves regarding the true extent of their skills and move forward appropriately. Small steps with good training and lots of practice to gain the solid foundation to keep building.

What makes it 'interesting' is one must also not only have the basic skills down 100% but KEEP them at that level through practice, vigilance etc...as well as adding the more advanced things to the pot.

That gets harder & harder as you go along because information overload, situational awareness. fatigue...all kinds of things start to stack up against you - raise the odds, and you may not even recognize it's happening.

And as Wendy's sigline so accurately states : the worse thing that can happen is you get away with it...You could be 'knowingly or not' stacking the odds WAY against yourself.

If one guy is telling to to slow up...you 'may' want to consider what he's saying.
If TEN people tell you - you MUST consider what they are saying and take some action.

~ I've been working in the Airshow industry for 35 years...I can't even begin to recall the number of friends I've lost, the times I've seen highly experienced pilots die.

The numbers easily double, maybe even triple the number of Skydiving friends I've lost over the years...what's kinda scary is that in both arenas, most were killed doing what would be considered somewhat 'routine' stuff. . . for THEM.

Advanced yes, 'pushing it' became routine for them, some little thing happened and they were to far across the line to get back...the odds caught up.

Understand that 'comfort zone' is a word we should never apply to what we do.

IF you are not on your toes 100% of the time the reaper WILL stomp your foot.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[airdvr 197]

I saw Hoover do this routine at the Cleveland Air Show. He was amazing.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[RyanFYF 0]

wow. pouring tea, back handed, now that's a sick trick! That guy rules!

[fastphil 0]

Very cool, I'm inspired for the rest of the day, thanks Dave... not only relative wind but relative gravity.

[DocPop 1]

airtwardo

As one gains experience, they need to be honest with themselves regarding the true extent of their skills and move forward appropriately. Small steps with good training and lots of practice to gain the solid foundation to keep building.

And that's the tricky part.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[JohnMitchell 14]

airtwardo

IF you are not on your toes 100% of the time the reaper WILL stomp your foot.

Bingo!

BTW, I've seen that routine in person too. Isn't it amazing?

But it's not magic, just pure physics of flight, expertly applied.

[ledballoon 1]

It's interesting what he says from 1.05 about how he learnt to do loops

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=B09nWQHdRiU&feature=fvwp

[davelepka 4]

Quote

It's interesting what he says from 1.05 about how he learnt to do loops

He starts off by saying, 'I was looking for someone to teach me to do loops, but there was nobody around who could'.

Any comparison you might be making to your own bad choices in aviation end right there. You have plenty of people around to teach you, but you choose to ignore them.

Now go back and listen to the reason I started this thread, where he says, 'I was fortunate enough to survive a lot of situations where others weren't so lucky as to have made it'.

If you want to base your survival on luck, or good fortune, keep on your current path. If you want to pay attention to the real message, consider when he says, 'I don't think I have any skill that anyone else doesn't have, I've just had, perhaps, more of an opportunity, more of an exposure'.

Get some exposure. Get some opportunity, and you won't have to rely on luck or fortune. If luck and fortune come your way, good on you. If they don't, have some experience and exposure to save yourself when the time comes.

[ledballoon 1]

how did aviation begin? how did skydiving become the sport it is now?

you condemn risk taking but by default we enjoy the benefits that come from risks having been taken to get here

we say our sport is being killed everytime someone dies and it becomes more regulated, but still tandem students come to jump partly because this is dangerous. what would happen if Joe Public saw skydiving as completely safe?

you're a flight instructor at Bob Hoover's school, what would your reaction be to a 16 yr old training himself to do loops fresh off his solo license in a rented airplane?

[davelepka 4]

Quote

you're a flight instructor at Bob Hoover's school, what would your reaction be to a 16 yr old training himself to do loops fresh off his solo license in a rented airplane?

Go ahead, compare yourself to Bob Hoover. Go forward assuming you're going to turn out to be one of the greatest aviators of all time, and pattern your learning progression after his.

Again, talk about (you) missing the point. After 60+ years of flying, did you hear one word he said? He does not believe that he has any special skills or ability, just that he had opportunity, exposure, and LUCK. Knowing what he knew at that point, after living through one of the greatest aviation careers of all time, he could clearly see that it was the time and experience that produced the living legend that he was, and luck and good fortune that brought him the early days when he was 'less then' a living legend.

I feel the same way after 18 years of jumping, and I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone with more than 10 or 15 years in the sport who cannot look back on their early days, shake their head, and thank god they survived some of the stupid situations they got themselves into. I have probably 20 jumps where I was seconds or feet away from being dead, but things swung my way and there was zero incident/injury. Back then, I might have taken credit for making the right moves to create the positive outcome, but years later I can look back and see that I was just lucky.

This what countless people, and the video I posted is trying to tell you. If you cut your margins too thin, you're not going to survive for long, and your canopy choice and what you do with it at your jump numbers is cutting it waaay too thin.

Let me ask you this, if you wanted some advice on BASE jumping, who would you ask? A guy with 1000 BASE jumps made all over the world, or a guy who took the BASE class in Twin Falls last week and has 4 jumps of that bridge? You're going to listen to the first guy, as he's 'been there and done that' and proven that he has whatever it takes to survive and be successful in BASE. The new guy, while he may be a BASE jumper, has a limited amount of experience/exposure, and may turn out to be a stain at the bottom of an antenna within a few months.

Your situation is the same. I (and others) have been there and done that. We've also been there and watched others make the same mistakes you are, and we are trying to tell you from that point of view that you are on a road that will most likely not end well. You, on the other hand, have not been anywhere or done anything along the same lines, and are just 'guessing' that everything will be alright, and that you're not going to end up dead, or maimed, or spending the rest of your life sitting in a chair/hospital bed.

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

we say our sport is being killed every time someone dies and it becomes more regulated, but still tandem students come to jump partly because this is dangerous. what would happen if Joe Public saw skydiving as completely safe?

then MORE people would do it.

You think people ride in airplanes all over the world because they think they're NOT safe?


You have the same stale argument a lot of unaware tourists have...just don't whine when ya get busted up - & don't hurt anybody else.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[wmw999 2,120]

There is no guarantee that you're going to die or hurt yourself seriously. There's just a significantly increased chance of it.

And if you're actually serious about becoming a skilled swooper, as opposed to a guy who goes fast close to the ground, then you're on a path that will lead to a whole lot of bad swoop habits that you'll have to unlearn.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[ledballoon 1]

I'm not comparing myself to Bob Hoover. I'm looking at the information you've presented and comparing it with more information from the same source and asking relevant questions

Its the juxtaposition between the attitude that gets people into the sky, curiosity and exploration, compared to the mindset of those same people later which seems completely at odds. would you let a 16 year old Hoover teach himself aerobatics if you were in charge?

Its not actually even the mindset, its the way certain parties choose to express that experience to others which is 'you will die and you're an arrogant fool'. that makes me want to prove you wrong. The amount of negativity I receive from people with no experience seeing me fly is completely disproportional to the positive Experiences I've had actually flying it safely. This will not change until I am deemed to have more experience.

I guess its a hard nut to crack, for you old folks trying to keep people alive long enough for people like me to see what you're even talking about, and us younger folks wanting to push ourselves

I see the light!! I SEE THE LIGHT!!!!

[-ftp- 0]

davelepka

Let me ask you this, if you wanted some advice on BASE jumping, who would you ask? A guy with 1000 BASE jumps made all over the world, or a guy who took the BASE class in Twin Falls last week and has 4 jumps of that bridge?

Dave there is a 3rd option which unfortunately UNREASONABLE people choose frequently, it's they don't ask either and just figure it out on their own.

You can't reason with an unreasonable person unfortunately, and when some of the most respected people in the hobby are telling you you're an idiot, and you don't listen, then you are a lost cause. Point blank, case closed. All you can do (and I am sure you know this more than a lot of people) is just stay the fuck away and warn others to do the same while you wait for the incident report.

[davelepka 4]

Quote

Its the juxtaposition between the attitude that gets people into the sky, curiosity and exploration, compared to the mindset of those same people later which seems completely at odds. would you let a 16 year old Hoover teach himself aerobatics if you were in charge?

Just because you're doing something risky, like any aviation related activity, doesn't mean you should throw all caution to the wind and just do whatever the hell you want. There are smart and prudent ways to do everything, even inherently risky activities.

I don't think anyone would support a 16 year old kid teaching himself aerobatics. The thing you seem to miss is that the only reason that you know about that story is because he turned out to be 'Bob Hoover' and he lived to tell the tale. You don't hear about the guys who were not so lucky, and spun their planes into the ground trying to do that sort of thing. Those guys aren't around to tell you about the other side of the coin.

Quote

Its not actually even the mindset, its the way certain parties choose to express that experience to others which is 'you will die and you're an arrogant fool'. that makes me want to prove you wrong

Once again it's a case of missing the point. It's not about you protecting your pride and proving me wrong, it's about you protecting your heath and welfare, and staying up here on this side of the grass long enough to learn to do what you want to do in a reasonable way.

I swoop on 99% of my landings. Big 450+ degree turns and I love every minute of it. It's out there, and it's not impossible to achieve, but you need the right attitude and solid foundation of skills to get there, and if you work hard, you can be there in a year or two. I did, and that was 15+ years ago, and I've been having a blast swooping small canopies ever since.

Quote

I guess its a hard nut to crack, for you old folks trying to keep people alive long enough for people like me to see what you're even talking about,

News flash, I'm not that old. I started jumping at 19 and just turned 38 last week. I've never jumped a round canopy, only jumped F-111 on my student jumps, and have never owned a jumpsuit with grippers (freefly from day one). I was as hot-to-trot as anyone when it came to small canopies and swooping in my early days. I'm not that different than you, just further down the road.

Think for just a minute what I have to gain by giving you advice over the internet. A guy I don't know who jumps at a DZ far from where I live. There's nothing in it for me (or anyone else on this board) other than to help a guy out, and maybe avoid another incident we don't want to read about.