Can a DZ be successful without tandems?

[NSEMN8R 0]

Are there any dzs left out there that do more S/L or IAD than tandems?

I remember the old days when we used to have classes of 30 to 50 students every weekend and we only did a handful of tandems.

Is it still possible to be successful without doing a ton of tandems or has the world really changed that much?

[Amazon 7]

NSEMN8R

Are there any dzs left out there that do more S/L or IAD than tandems?

I remember the old days when we used to have classes of 30 to 50 students every weekend and we only did a handful of tandems.

Is it still possible to be successful without doing a ton of tandems or has the world really changed that much?

You have to define success.

If you are in it strictly for the money then the tandem mill wins hands down in the mind of a DZO who only caters to his greed.

Is that not the Merican way?

[JohnMitchell 14]

They were for decades. . .

[davelepka 4]

Quote

They were for decades. .

Before tandems, and when fuel and student gear were both much cheaper.

The problem becomes that people want to freefall, so you would have to give them a reason to go with SL. If that's the lower price, how low would you have to go to beat out tandems for $200 (or less), and still turn a profit? How many of those people would you have to attract at the lower price to make up for the difference in revenue between that and a tandem? Are there enough people out there willing to make that trade-off on a regular basis to keep the DZ in business?

Things change, it's just a fact in business. Look at record or book stores, practically gone from the brick and mortar marketplace. What about cloth diaper services? There are still some out there, but Huggies took that industry and reduced it by 99%. Anyone been to a roller rink lately?

I think tandem and AFF are just what people want/expect these days, and S/L seems like a 'lesser' jump because there's no freefall.

[gowlerk 1,903]

The last time I did the math sell a FJC course was easily more profitable than selling a tandem. But tandem expands the target market to include people who would never do an IAD type jump. It's what the market wants.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[DougH 270]

I think a key part of the question is the ratio of low or no profit margin licensed jumpers, to higher profit margin student jumpers. At a smaller DZ right now tandems can way outweigh the number of resident fun jumpers.

With tandem being the market demand, will you invert that, and end up with more fun jumpers than active students? I think that you would lose business to other tandem drop zones in your area. You would still get students, but not nearly as many.

Profit margins are thin thin if it was mostly fun jumpers. It would certainly take a lot of efficiency, and some economies of scale if the student numbers dried up.

A club with a 182 or other lower expense plane can work, because there isn't a profit motive.

Maybe a big drop zone would work but in my opinion you would need full loads, and limited inefficiencies. Tandems help defray the cost of a light load here and there.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[JohnMitchell 14]

Tandems = quick $$$ for DZ's and instructors alike. Hard to say "no" to that. But you could.

I'm okay with my fun load in the back and 4 tandems in the front, with a few aff inbetween. Our DZ seems to strike a good balance.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

DougH

...A club with a 182 or other lower expense plane can work, because there isn't a profit motive...

No. Even without a profit motive, without the income generated by tandems you can't keep your head above water.
Even a small club DZ, with the building and plane owned free and clear, had incredible amounts of overhead. Property taxes (and the ground lease to the airport), fuel, maintenance, utilities, and on and on.

If you want to keep even a 182 flying, you'd have to charge around $30 per slot, and fly every load full to break even.

Been there.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[grasshoppergirl 0]

This newbie has been wondering the same thing. Although I'm just a student, I've been around the sport now for a good two years and have been at several drop zones. I get that tandems are the bread and butter etc. etc. but as a AFF student, I need to get up more than 1x/day. That seems to be very difficult to accomplish (especially while you still need two instructors). Only putting two AFF's on a load also slows it down. I keep thinking that there has to be a better way. I know people cancel/don't show up, and I know it can be hard when you're short intructors etc. but should you really prioritize walk-in tandems over paid up AFF students?

[Fast 0]

I think that one of the biggest parts of this is also your serious sport jumpers. At least where I am, there are a lot of people who couldn't afford to jump if they weren't working for the dropzone supporting the tandem side in some way.

Even with a pretty reasonable income my wife and I wouldn't be able to participate in the sport in nearly the same way if we weren't both staff jumpers.

That would cut down on sport jumpers even more. Everything rolls down hill from the tandem income, without that there would be skydiving, just not like most of the current generation of jumpers look at it.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[NSEMN8R 0]

When we started out this spring I bought 6 student rigs and 1 tandem rig and a 182. I have friends that run "mostly tandem" operations and I didn't want to compete with them. Plus I'm getting old and doing tandems from a 182 all day beats the shit out of your body. And I really missed flying my own canopy too. And I figured we could make skydivers that would become staff at all the other dropzones around here.

I also thought that nowadays, with all the YouTube videos out there, everyone wants to fly wingsuits. You could do a thousand tandems and never be able to do that. It's something they could work toward learning out here. Also, it seems like a lot of people are really cheap and the price difference might swing them toward iad.

And, on paper at least, Iad jumps are more profitable. I can do 2 tandems at 225 and make 450 for going to 10K. Or I can take 3 IAD students at 150 each and make the same 450 only going to 3500 feet.

We've only been open for a little over a month so it's a little early to be discouraged, but I'm starting to wonder about in now. I spent a couple days last week cold calling businesses trying to market it as a team building exercise. I lead off with iad every time and every single conversation ended with them wanting to know how much tandems would cost. It's like everyone is afraid to go solo their first time nowadays. The one deal we got was a high rise window cleaning company and it was for 20 tandems.

I think I might try some kind of groupon for Iad jumps next. Anyone tried that yet?

[milehigheric 0]

Take the money out of the equation for a second and consider this. If you offered everyone in your extended friends and family a free tandem or a free solo jump (iad, SL, AFF) what sort of split would you get? In my circle i figure about 80% would consider tandem, 19% would say your crazy get away from me and 1% would consider solo.

I may not have the whole market in my circle but from what I see people want carnival rides... The bucket listers, the bucks partiers, the birthdayers etc. It would take a lot to convince anyone I know to make a solo jump even if it was on the house. A tandem where they don't have to do anything on the other hand... Sure lets go.

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

on paper at least, Iad jumps are more profitable. I can do 2 tandems at 225 and make 450 for going to 10K. Or I can take 3 IAD students at 150 each and make the same 450 only going to 3500 feet.

Are you factoring-in the IAD students' FJC? I.e., both the income of the FJC fee, and the out-go of the value of the instructor's time plus the value of the product (the course) itself?

IAD student = a few hrs FJC
Tandem student = hit 'em on the head w/a rubber mallet & hook 'em up.

Plus, I second what MileHiEric said - the public (especially non-athletic folk) these days wants tandem, for reasons having little to nothing to do with cost. That's the consumer demand; it is what it is. Don't be the vendor that ignores that.

[DougH 270]

They want an ipod skydive.

Sanitized, low pressure, "as safe as driving their car", instant gratification.

I think it is an overall cultural shift, but also how we have been marketing tandems.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[IJskonijn 38]

wolfriverjoe

***
...A club with a 182 or other lower expense plane can work, because there isn't a profit motive...

No. Even without a profit motive, without the income generated by tandems you can't keep your head above water.
Even a small club DZ, with the building and plane owned free and clear, had incredible amounts of overhead. Property taxes (and the ground lease to the airport), fuel, maintenance, utilities, and on and on.

If you want to keep even a 182 flying, you'd have to charge around $30 per slot, and fly every load full to break even.

Been there.

You're wrong. PCMN in the Netherlands is doing just that. They can't do tandems because of altitude restrictions, and they've been keeping afloat for ~5 years now doing static-lines, demos etc. out of a 182. Granted, there's a lot of volunteer-work going around, but jump prices for members are €15 for 3.5kft and €18 for 6kft, comparable to other dutch DZ's.

[dzswoop717 5]

If there are a couple of tandem mills near you that don't offer any further training, Consider a commision type deal with them for the first time tandems that want to continue in the sport. Have your lititure in the first jump packets at the tandem mills offering continued training. Give the tandem mill X amount of $ for every IAD student they send you. WIN-WIN for everybody.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

Quote

You're wrong. PCMN in the Netherlands is doing just that. They can't do tandems because of altitude restrictions, and they've been keeping afloat for ~5 years now doing static-lines, demos etc. out of a 182. Granted, there's a lot of volunteer-work going around, but jump prices for members are €15 for 3.5kft and €18 for 6kft, comparable to other dutch DZ's.

Well, I'm glad you are able to keep operating.

I was part of a small club that struggled for several years before we gave up and closed.
Without the tandem income, we would not have lasted anywhere near as long as we did.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[DougH 270]

wolfriverjoe

Quote

You're wrong. PCMN in the Netherlands is doing just that. They can't do tandems because of altitude restrictions, and they've been keeping afloat for ~5 years now doing static-lines, demos etc. out of a 182. Granted, there's a lot of volunteer-work going around, but jump prices for members are €15 for 3.5kft and €18 for 6kft, comparable to other dutch DZ's.

Well, I'm glad you are able to keep operating.

I was part of a small club that struggled for several years before we gave up and closed.
Without the tandem income, we would not have lasted anywhere near as long as we did.

I think I already said that above?

You don't NEED tandem income, but you NEED a high ratio of higher margin student income, tandem or IAD S/L.

The problem is if you don't offer tandems, you may not get much in the way of students if you have alternative DZ in your area within driving distance that do offer tandems.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[Andy9o8 0]

IJskonijn

******
...A club with a 182 or other lower expense plane can work, because there isn't a profit motive...

No. Even without a profit motive, without the income generated by tandems you can't keep your head above water.
Even a small club DZ, with the building and plane owned free and clear, had incredible amounts of overhead. Property taxes (and the ground lease to the airport), fuel, maintenance, utilities, and on and on.

If you want to keep even a 182 flying, you'd have to charge around $30 per slot, and fly every load full to break even.

Been there.

You're wrong. PCMN in the Netherlands is doing just that. They can't do tandems because of altitude restrictions, and they've been keeping afloat for ~5 years now doing static-lines, demos etc. out of a 182. Granted, there's a lot of volunteer-work going around, but jump prices for members are €15 for 3.5kft and €18 for 6kft, comparable to other dutch DZ's.

Individual anecdotal exceptions do not rebut the general rule.

[Fast 0]

NSEMN8R

I think I might try some kind of groupon for Iad jumps next. Anyone tried that yet?

They would not take us up on an AFF deal. They didn't think people would buy and they were afraid of the extra liability of a solo student. I have been running a dropzone for 7 years now, we are a turbine DZ, so our experience is a little different, but we had to get rid of static line because at original pricing ($135) people who shouldn't have been doing it were buying cause it was super cheap. At a more reasonable price, people weren't buying because it was too close to tandem and the instructors couldn't stay current.

There is a place near us that does a lot of IAD, but even they are getting pushed more towards tandems by the customers iirc.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka