A packers tip question

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

I'm still on my 210 sqft "Cadillac"

As an aside, I urge newer jumpers not to think of canopies this way. Long story short, I think it contributes to a cultural pressure to downsize too quickly, with all the really crappy stuff that comes from that:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?forum=14;

[airtwardo 6]

Andy9o8

Quote

I'm still on my 210 sqft "Cadillac"

As an aside, I urge newer jumpers not to think of canopies this way. Long story short, I think it contributes to a cultural pressure to downsize too quickly, with all the really crappy stuff that comes from that:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?forum=14;

Yup...MY 210 is Caddy - but in a GOOD way!

Reliable, comfy and safe in a crash!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

Packers have always been around, and I'm pretty sure they aren't going anywhere!

No & Yes

No ~ Back when it was a Sport not a Bu$ine$$ even 1st jump students packed for themselves.

It's how we taught them What a parachute is, How it works, Why it works, Why it doesn't work & What to do when it doesn't...HANDS ON.


Yes .~ They will probably be around for the foreseeable future for the very reason you & I have illustrated. 'Newer' jumpers have been conditioned to accept it as normal - something that's ok because it's 'always' been there.

*Again - I personally don't care either way. It's not something that will destroy skydiving.
DO i look down my nose at someone who can't pack for themselves?
Maybe a little, when I see jumpers with advanced licenses that truly don't know how.

**Quick throw out question - IS it still a requirement & has anybody ever actually seen a licensed rigger 'supervise' a packer during the course of the pack job?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Southern_Man 0]

airtwardo

**Quick throw out question - IS it still a requirement & has anybody ever actually seen a licensed rigger 'supervise' a packer during the course of the pack job?

Yes, it is still an FAA requirement. I received supervision when I started packing form a rigger. Now that I am a rigger I provide supervision for people packing under me.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[wildcard451 0]

I can pack my own rather easily (<10min when I feel like it), and generally prefer my own openings to that of packers. I know exactly how many jumps are on my line set and do all my own maintenance(closing loops, etc) that I can without being a rigger.

However, at training camps and competitions, I would much rather have that time between jumps to relax and conserve energy to concentrate on the task at hand. Given the gear setup I have, I trust very few people to pack for me, and always hook up the RDS myself. I have a packer at my home DZ, one at the DZ I train at, and found a great packer at Nationals this year as well.

If they're not available, I'll pack.

/fucking hate packing/

[airtwardo 6]

Southern_Man

***

**Quick throw out question - IS it still a requirement & has anybody ever actually seen a licensed rigger 'supervise' a packer during the course of the pack job?

Yes, it is still an FAA requirement. I received supervision when I started packing form a rigger. Now that I am a rigger I provide supervision for people packing under me.

Could you extrapolate on your definition of supervision in this context?

In other words - do you 'train' a packer on the intricacies of differing rig types, what to look for as far as wear etc.?

Do you actually 'oversee' each packer & pack job under your supervision? If not, would you be willing to put your seal on a reserve a packer under your supervision had packed?

I'm just curious...and I'm definitely not saying you're doing anything wrong, just asking if supervision means the same thing for BOTH mains & reserves?

*If not ~ Why not?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[NWFlyer 2]

Quote

I don't know ANY skydivers (save pro-teams & camera workers) that don't have 5 minutes between their next load to pack their own rig.

I'd argue that any team (not just pros) that's involved in fairly serious training (especially coached) doesn't have time. My 8-way team does 20 minute calls all day. By the time I get in from the landing area (we train at Perris, and I'm often among the last down and have to wait for a landing plane before I cross the runway), drop my gear, debrief and/or dirt dive, I'm lucky if I have enough time to pee, down some water, and shove a pack of almonds in my pocket to eat on the ride up. Packing for myself isn't an option.

As for the rest of the time, I mostly pay packers. I'm old enough not to be part of the entitlement generation, but I'm also old enough to make enough money in my career that I can afford to pay packers, and for me paying packers greatly increases my enjoyment of the sport. I jump a large, docile, forgiving canopy that can handle less-than-perfect pack jobs, though I do try to use packers that I know and trust anyway.

However, paying packers doesn't mean that I don't know how to pack. I do*, and I make sure that I pack enough that I don't forget. It doesn't mean that I don't maintain my gear. I do. I look at my brake lines when I land and untwist them if needed before I stow them. I check other points of wear regularly. I hand my rig off with the slider uncollapsed, brakes stowed the way I like 'em, and pilot chute cocked.


*As a side note, I can thank karenmeal, who was a packer at the time at the dropzone where I learned to skydive. She not only taught my packing class, she steadfastly refused to take my pack jobs till I was confident and comfortable packing for myself. In my case, that took a lot of practice! I'm forever grateful for that, because I will never find myself in a situation where I can't pack for myself if needed.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

I'd argue that any team (not just pros) that's involved in fairly serious training (especially coached) doesn't have time

That's what I meant..should have used a better term...semi-pro?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

airtwardo

******

**Quick throw out question - IS it still a requirement & has anybody ever actually seen a licensed rigger 'supervise' a packer during the course of the pack job?

Yes, it is still an FAA requirement. I received supervision when I started packing form a rigger. Now that I am a rigger I provide supervision for people packing under me.

Could you extrapolate on your definition of supervision in this context?

In other words - do you 'train' a packer on the intricacies of differing rig types, what to look for as far as wear etc.?

Do you actually 'oversee' each packer & pack job under your supervision? If not, would you be willing to put your seal on a reserve a packer under your supervision had packed?

I'm just curious...and I'm definitely not saying you're doing anything wrong, just asking if supervision means the same thing for BOTH mains & reserves?

*If not ~ Why not?

Kinda backwards, but no. I don't think "supervision" means the same for mains and reserves, for a variety of reasons.

I didn't think I could put my seal on a reserve someone else had packed, regardless of the level of supervision (I could be wrong on that and welcome correction).

Anyone who I have taught to pack is shown what to look for in wear, tear and defects (manufacture and assembly). Obviously I can't cover everything, but The fallback "If it doesn't look right, ask" is always there. Differences in gear can be a bit tough. Generally, students are taught how to pack the student gear, and then offered advice on whatever they purchase. Those who wish to pack tandems are given specific instruction on the tandem rig they will be packing.

And my understanding of "supervision" is in the immediate area, immediately available if needed and keeping an overall eye on things. I should be in the building if not actually on the mat packing. I can go to the bathroom or go sit on the couch, but I shouldn't be going down the road to the corner store or even getting on the plane to make a jump.

That's also how it's been at other places I go to. For the paid packers, many have their ticket, but for those who don't, there has to be a rigger on the mat.

And in the "general silliness" category, I was helping a student pack when the pilot, also a rigger (and a major smartass) came over and stood right over us, arms crossed, looking very stern. After a few minutes, the student asked why he was doing this. He explained that he had to "supervise" us. I gave him the "I don't need no stinkin' supervision" response (as a joke) and he proceeded to quote the FARs on it. The look on his face when I said that I had my ticket too was pretty funny.

So, of course, later that day, we both did it to one of the guys packing a tandem rig who didn't have his ticket so he couldn't make us go away.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[ChrisD 0]

I love my packeers by the way... just sayin....


It is perfectly acceptable for lic. riggers to fully / "directly" supervise an "other" to pack a reserve. And then affix their seal and signature to same.

C

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[airtwardo 6]

wolfriverjoe

*********

**Quick throw out question - IS it still a requirement & has anybody ever actually seen a licensed rigger 'supervise' a packer during the course of the pack job?

Yes, it is still an FAA requirement. I received supervision when I started packing form a rigger. Now that I am a rigger I provide supervision for people packing under me.

Could you extrapolate on your definition of supervision in this context?

In other words - do you 'train' a packer on the intricacies of differing rig types, what to look for as far as wear etc.?

Do you actually 'oversee' each packer & pack job under your supervision? If not, would you be willing to put your seal on a reserve a packer under your supervision had packed?

I'm just curious...and I'm definitely not saying you're doing anything wrong, just asking if supervision means the same thing for BOTH mains & reserves?

*If not ~ Why not?

Kinda backwards, but no. I don't think "supervision" means the same for mains and reserves, for a variety of reasons.

I didn't think I could put my seal on a reserve someone else had packed, regardless of the level of supervision (I could be wrong on that and welcome correction).

Anyone who I have taught to pack is shown what to look for in wear, tear and defects (manufacture and assembly). Obviously I can't cover everything, but The fallback "If it doesn't look right, ask" is always there. Differences in gear can be a bit tough. Generally, students are taught how to pack the student gear, and then offered advice on whatever they purchase. Those who wish to pack tandems are given specific instruction on the tandem rig they will be packing.

And my understanding of "supervision" is in the immediate area, immediately available if needed and keeping an overall eye on things. I should be in the building if not actually on the mat packing. I can go to the bathroom or go sit on the couch, but I shouldn't be going down the road to the corner store or even getting on the plane to make a jump.

That's also how it's been at other places I go to. For the paid packers, many have their ticket, but for those who don't, there has to be a rigger on the mat.

And in the "general silliness" category, I was helping a student pack when the pilot, also a rigger (and a major smartass) came over and stood right over us, arms crossed, looking very stern. After a few minutes, the student asked why he was doing this. He explained that he had to "supervise" us. I gave him the "I don't need no stinkin' supervision" response (as a joke) and he proceeded to quote the FARs on it. The look on his face when I said that I had my ticket too was pretty funny.

So, of course, later that day, we both did it to one of the guys packing a tandem rig who didn't have his ticket so he couldn't make us go away.


Well I'm glad YOU chimed in since it's been crickets from the guy I asked the question to.

Unless things have changed...yes you as a rigger can affix your seal to a reserve pack done by someone else under your supervision.

So...it's not apples to oranges in that context.

The question is -

WOULD you show 'Bubba' how to pack a reserve...walk away to another part of the facility - return later in the day and seal 30 reserve re-packs Bubba had completed?

How about 10 'Bubbas' packing 300 reserves?

How about sealing a weeks worth of 2000 reserves...all packed under your 'supervision' but not with your physically being in the same room?

See where I'm going here?

'We' can interpret 'supervision' any way that makes our life easier...but it's the way the FEDS interpret it that really matters.

It hasn't come up as a huge issue yet in the U.S., but bounce a few n00bs and the resulting legal & civil actions could change that rapidly.

A few years back at an industry convention, I was asked out to dinner by an old friend who's pretty high up in the FAA. I've known the guy for 20+ years, after the 'how ya been - hows the kids' small talk it became apparent this was a 'fact-finding mission' on his part.

I got loads of questions regarding Tandems...some recent to then incidents had things under the scope and he was trying to get an honest insiders opinion on stuff. Training & Quals of rating holders was discussed...surprised me when PACKERS of tandems was an issue of great interest.

~ but then it turned to packers in general of "single harness dual parachute systems". (his words)

Gulp...I was kinda getting put on the spot so to speak, I truthfully said I never use "private packers without a riggers license" (his words)

~ and less than truthfully, said I really didn't know anything about that end of the sport...even when asked my thoughts on the 'packer B' thing.


SO...my point is~

Yes packers are here to stay, but maybe not in the present form forever - who knows there 'may' be some kind of regulation down the road someday.

...it also behoves those who 'supervise' packers to give some thought to that word, and what liability it 'may' hold for them. Money is changing hands, so is that a 'contract' which would incorporate the following of written guidelines that are being interpreted differently for mains & reserves?

See where I'm going NOW?

And on an entirely different front...are we 'representing' to some 50 jump wonder that there are safeguards in place that in some cases really aren't there, when they drop their rig on the floor & walk away?

*Again with my disclaimer - I personally have nothing against packers...I just want to point out that just because 'they've always been there' (untrue) doesn't mean that things are being done as the 'should be'...or in a way that's best for everyone.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Chiquita 12]

I have not read all of the posts, so I am not sure if anyone else has said this or not. But, when I was a packer I really appreciated it when the jumper would stow their brakes, un-collapse the slider and un-collapse the pilot chute. A lot of the times I was the only packer, so I was doing tandems, students, and up jumpers when I could. On busy days, the ones those things did that got packed first

I would say that I generally got about $1 a pack job when people tipped. However, I did have one guy that tipped more, brought me food and something to drink, and he pretty much always got packed first. One boogie that I went to he was the only one I packed for. I was there to jump not pack, but he gave me an irresistible offer, breakfast brought to my tent every morning, food & drinks when ever I wanted it (just had to tell his kids I was hungry or thirsty), and told his kids if I needed a ride on his golf cart they were to bring me first even if he was going the other way :-)

So, basically, if your treat your packer well they will generally take very good care of you. It is hard work and not everyone seems to appreciate them as much as they should, and the ones that do generally are appreciated very much as well.

"Ego is the anesthesia that deadens the pain of stupidity"

[Jvx 0]

ChrisD

I hope your packer is trained to spot any defects or components that are past their service life?


The above, while some of you are turning the spit, and thanks for takeing the apple out of my mouth for a moment so that I can point this little ditty out....

Have packers with no training or experience whatsoever...

I'm on the Coast for the weekend...that's LA for a day or so and guess what!!!!????? I try to visit places I haven't visited in years, and guesss what????

Interns at a popular DZ,...now I might be inclined to name names, but this is more common than we realize!

Are your packers jumpers?

Well I'm fucking sitten here looking at more than a few "packers" and DZ staff, laudably working twords the day they can afford their AFF class....and I'm keeping my mouth shut.... cause I'm a guest here...

But their packing!

So sombody please use the C word again while the rest of you turn the spit and stoke the coals and somebody please tell me that it's ok for non-juimpers to pack my rig?

Other than that I'll just put the apple back in my mouth,...


and no I'm not done yet....


C

And quite frankly I have no intention to start tipping the check out person...

They are there to make money! They are not my friends, I don't want to have a beer with them, they literally could give a shit whether I live or die, they won't come to my funeeral, nor will the majority of them stop packing to give free advice, nor will they come running if I loose my cutaway main.....When the plane stops flying who's left standing at the dz at the end of the day?


And since I'm on a roll who was it that mentioned ZP? Ya that makes a lot of sense: Buy a canopy that you know you can't pack???

If I ever see you I'm going to break your jaw... Enjoy that.

[Southern_Man 0]

airtwardo

Well I'm glad YOU chimed in since it's been crickets from the guy I asked the question to.

Sorry, been busy and didn't check but I'm happy to answer the question.

I'm a new rigger, so I am not in the business of training other riggers at this point in time. I would not seal another person's reserve pack job who was training for his ticket. It is not the way I was taught, the pack jobs we did under supervision were not put in service.

Supervision of the main packing floor is a job I take very seriously. All packers, students as well as packers for hire, are taught to inspect for wear as they pack. All packers are taught to ask questions if they don't understand something. I do show packers different kinds of equipment--different stowage systems for breaks, different riser cover configurations, etc.

As far as supervision, it is on a sliding scale based on experience. I have been teaching my 13 year old daughter to pack. She has been getting a lot of hands-on supervision and help and she will for quite a while. I've had other packers on the floor who have worked packing for a number of years professionally and have a lot more pack jobs than I have. I supervise them too but not at the same level. I am on the floor while there are things being packed. I am spot checking the pack jobs, which could vary from observing the whole thing start-to-finish for a new person to observing a few steps on more experienced people. I would personally feel comfortable jumping anything that is packed on my floor--which is the bottom line as far as I am concerned. If there was somebody who I would not feel comfortable jumping his/her packjob, then we would be doing re-training or some other arrangement.

Honestly I am at a smaller drop zone and most weekends I am the only paid packer but at times I have people packing under my supervision as well. I think the whole experience would be different if there were, e.g. 7 packers under my supervision. I started packing at a larger drop zone and my supervising rigger observed my pack jobs--start to finish at first and then some steps from time-to-time. He was always helping fine-tune some things so that was a good experience and I largely developed my philosophy/practices from that. I will also observe experienced jumpers packing for themselves and offer tips when I have time.

It does surprise me that jumpers, for example visiting jumpers, will walk in and throw down their rig and get a pack job without asking any questions about qualifications or experience. I personally don't let anybody else pack my gear (except for earlier mentioned 13 year old daughter).

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[airtwardo 6]

Southern_Man

***


Well I'm glad YOU chimed in since it's been crickets from the guy I asked the question to.

Sorry, been busy and didn't check but I'm happy to answer the question.

I'm a new rigger, so I am not in the business of training other riggers at this point in time. I would not seal another person's reserve pack job who was training for his ticket. It is not the way I was taught, the pack jobs we did under supervision were not put in service.

Supervision of the main packing floor is a job I take very seriously. All packers, students as well as packers for hire, are taught to inspect for wear as they pack. All packers are taught to ask questions if they don't understand something. I do show packers different kinds of equipment--different stowage systems for breaks, different riser cover configurations, etc.

As far as supervision, it is on a sliding scale based on experience. I have been teaching my 13 year old daughter to pack. She has been getting a lot of hands-on supervision and help and she will for quite a while. I've had other packers on the floor who have worked packing for a number of years professionally and have a lot more pack jobs than I have. I supervise them too but not at the same level. I am on the floor while there are things being packed. I am spot checking the pack jobs, which could vary from observing the whole thing start-to-finish for a new person to observing a few steps on more experienced people. I would personally feel comfortable jumping anything that is packed on my floor--which is the bottom line as far as I am concerned. If there was somebody who I would not feel comfortable jumping his/her packjob, then we would be doing re-training or some other arrangement.

Honestly I am at a smaller drop zone and most weekends I am the only paid packer but at times I have people packing under my supervision as well. I think the whole experience would be different if there were, e.g. 7 packers under my supervision. I started packing at a larger drop zone and my supervising rigger observed my pack jobs--start to finish at first and then some steps from time-to-time. He was always helping fine-tune some things so that was a good experience and I largely developed my philosophy/practices from that. I will also observe experienced jumpers packing for themselves and offer tips when I have time.

It does surprise me that jumpers, for example visiting jumpers, will walk in and throw down their rig and get a pack job without asking any questions about qualifications or experience. I personally don't let anybody else pack my gear (except for earlier mentioned 13 year old daughter).

Sounds like you go above & beyond what many might consider 'supervision' and for that I tip my hat.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[ChrisD 0]

Apparently, for some of you it's ok that someone with no training whatsoever can pack for you?

Let's look at this another way:

Someone that dosent know what they are looking at can pack your rig. This is past "direct sepervision" and I know more than a few DZ's that have a rigger nearby so they can pull this particular stunt. And that's what it is cause what I saw is more than a few non-jumping packers that don't have a clue as to what they are looking at! you can literally reverse your riseers or have a defective closing loop, and or your rapid links can be undone...They don't know what they are looking at!


And your response is:


Well anything wrong is "your responsibility" in the first place.

Then we have those that as you hand over 7 bucks or whatever...lets be nice and: stow the toggle lines and handles, collpse the slideer, cock the pilot chute, untwist lines,.... Why don't you just pack the thing for them and then hand over the cash, being nice to the service people and all???

So why then give them a tip???

I can only imagine the number of malfunctions that have taken place by untrained packers that have gone unreported!

Let a non-jumper pack my rig...NOT going to happen....

C

And a special note to JVX: Why don't you go get drunk and pack a few of your friends rigs?

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[NWFlyer 2]

ChrisD

Apparently, for some of you it's ok that someone with no training whatsoever can pack for you?...


Let a non-jumper pack my rig...NOT going to happen....

Non-jumper does not necessarily mean "no training whatsoever." Because your entire argument seems to rest on that premise, I'm perfectly comfortable dismissing it and carrying on about my business in ways that I'm comfortable with.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[Andy9o8 0]

NWFlyer

***Apparently, for some of you it's ok that someone with no training whatsoever can pack for you?...


Let a non-jumper pack my rig...NOT going to happen....

Non-jumper does not necessarily mean "no training whatsoever." Because your entire argument seems to rest on that premise, I'm perfectly comfortable dismissing it and carrying on about my business in ways that I'm comfortable with.
I agree with you. There are many very capable packers who have never made a skydive.
That being said....

....There is something to be said for the notion that a packer, if "of age", should have made at least 1 skydive on a canopy that he/she has packed, even if it's "only" a tandem. Nothing quite like actually relying on your own pack job to save your life to drive home the responsibility of asking your customers to place their lives in your hands.

[ChrisD 0]

NWFlyer

***Apparently, for some of you it's ok that someone with no training whatsoever can pack for you?...


Let a non-jumper pack my rig...NOT going to happen....

Non-jumper does not necessarily mean "no training whatsoever." Because your entire argument seems to rest on that premise, I'm perfectly comfortable dismissing it and carrying on about my business in ways that I'm comfortable with.
I get your point Kriss ...

So what level of training are you comfortable with???
C

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[NWFlyer 2]

ChrisD

So what level of training are you comfortable with???

I can get a good idea by watching someone pack whether they know what they're doing. I will say the overwhelming majority of my packers are also jumpers, with the notable exception of JohnMitchell's son back when he was still a teenager (he's since gone on to get his license, but back then he wasn't a jumper). Still, he'd been around the DZ packing for years when I met him, and had a good reputation as a packer and did good work.

Really, that's what I usually do when I go to a new DZ - I ask around, and figure out who are the packers who've been around a bit, and talk to them first. At this point in my life I'm mostly going back to the same places, so I know the regulars, many of whom have been packing (and packing for me) for several years. I also know who to avoid - bad reputations are pretty easy to discover, too.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[ChrisD 0]

NWFlyer

***
So what level of training are you comfortable with???

I can get a good idea by watching someone pack whether they know what they're doing. I will say the overwhelming majority of my packers are also jumpers, with the notable exception of JohnMitchell's son back when he was still a teenager (he's since gone on to get his license, but back then he wasn't a jumper). Still, he'd been around the DZ packing for years when I met him, and had a good reputation as a packer and did good work.

Really, that's what I usually do when I go to a new DZ - I ask around, and figure out who are the packers who've been around a bit, and talk to them first. At this point in my life I'm mostly going back to the same places, so I know the regulars, many of whom have been packing (and packing for me) for several years. I also know who to avoid - bad reputations are pretty easy to discover, too.

Thanks Krisanne for the well thought out reply.

I want to harp on this a little more because I have a concern for the amount of information that may be missed if others give your post a too quick read...
That being that your the one making this determinatiion!

As you point out:
"I can get a good idea by watching someone..."

But what about all of those out there that don't have your wealth of experience and judgment?

This is my point. And I have a concern for those that don't know what they don't know?

More than once I have seen posts on other topics where individuals proporting to have over 250 jumps don't know how their gear works! How then do we expect them to make these kinds of judgment calls?

Im telling ya on a nationwide scale skydivers have and are not as knowledgeble as they once were!

If yo take a moment and read the popular literature and even including the SIM and IRM the emphasis on gear and the relationship to safety has taken a back seat. Look at some of the old books and you can see by the second chapter the authors are talking gear because of the great dependency on gear, basically this sport is gear dependent! Look at Ray Darby's book. He makes the case frequently and early about this relation ship!

Now in this day and age, we talk about performance and wing loading, and which canopy should I buy. The basics are being forgotten and I see this pro-packing issue just another nail in some poor kids coffin?

Learning is something that needs to be taught and my frequent cross country trips of late point out that this issue exsists and needs to be addresssed.

Not everyone has your perspective and your discerning sense of justice and great common sense. Perhaps we need a simple packers sign off card with a minimul level of demonstrated knowledge before we turn over something as important as packing another human beings rig to a complete stranger?

And we certianly need to train our A and B lic kids better than we are currently doing! And especially before they pack their first rig and / or purchase same!

C

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[Avikus 0]

Ok I skip most of the thread cause you guys talk way to much ... but I love it so keep it up!

As a packer I wanna say a few things.

First, Thank you! Thanks for the business and the tips. Both are Very Welcomed! Tips on hot day are usually used to buy a case of beer then spread among people so your tips are usually given back into beer form (for myself).

2nd, scr3w you! Packing suck :D

3rd, tip are not necessary IMO. Especially when we have a lot of tandem in front of you, sorry but you might not be our priorities. But when we have some slacks, I will usually pack for you when ask, just don't expect to be serve in a quick fashion. So for that, it's okay if you don't tip if you wait a while before having your rig pack.

4th, If you get a reserve ride, and it's my fault (BODY POSITION!!!!), pack job is free but that the extent of it! Happens to the best of us (Happen once that my pack job had a malfonction, 1 was my own rig, 2nd was the kill line that broke on a tandem so out of my control since it happen in flight)

So yeah! That's it!

Avikus - Packer and Jumper - Hate landing with the plane!

[cavscout73 0]

Hell, I have been packing since shortly after I started. Makes a bit of extra money. But I also treat every rig as if its going on my back. I usually do them in under 10 minutes, which leaves time to do all the little things like untwisting brake lines, check and or replace clising loops etc.. I have taught quite a few up and coming packers. And I dont give any okay to pack for others until I will be comfortable jumping their pack jobs. And then they are closely watched for a period.
So to say a packer doesnt take the time to check your shit is
b.s ....
Now as far as tipping goes, I dont expect them but will gladly except them . The best tip a Jumper can give me is set your gear down neatly, untow your slider and set your brakes..