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milehigheric

Carry on rigs with AAD - what's the deal?

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I thought I read up on this subject and had my basses covered - apparently not.

I just got through check in on a flight from brisbane AUS to christchurch NZ after 1.5 hours of talking. The first issue was my rig was overweight for carry on. Fair enough, I fixed this by cutting away my main and stashing it in my suitcase. Then i was asked if it contained a 'gas canister'. Being honest I said yes it has a small enclosed charge known as an automatic activation device - a backup device. I showed them the TSA documents approving them for flight but they would not be accepted because they weren't from the manufacturer.

Over the next hour i explained to them what the system is, how it works, when it works and why it works. All they cared about was the charge and wanted to know what substance it contained and how much of it was present. I explained to them that these details are not documented to the end user. The check in staff were friendly and seemed to believe what I was saying but without a document from the manufacturer they would not let the rig fly - even in the hold.

Eventually after several calls, one manager in NZ was familiar with the device and gave the ok initially for checked luggage. I argued the point that I did not want my life saving device thrown around and would prefer to Cary it on. Eventually we agreed that the airline would allow me but it is at security's discretion.

Security said nothing and here I am... But wtf?

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milehigheric

I thought I read up on this subject and had my basses covered - apparently not.

I just got through check in on a flight from brisbane AUS to christchurch NZ after 1.5 hours of talking. The first issue was my rig was overweight for carry on. Fair enough, I fixed this by cutting away my main and stashing it in my suitcase. Then i was asked if it contained a 'gas canister'. Being honest I said yes it has a small enclosed charge known as an automatic activation device - a backup device. I showed them the TSA documents approving them for flight but they would not be accepted because they weren't from the manufacturer.

Over the next hour i explained to them what the system is, how it works, when it works and why it works. All they cared about was the charge and wanted to know what substance it contained and how much of it was present. I explained to them that these details are not documented to the end user. The check in staff were friendly and seemed to believe what I was saying but without a document from the manufacturer they would not let the rig fly - even in the hold.

Eventually after several calls, one manager in NZ was familiar with the device and gave the ok initially for checked luggage. I argued the point that I did not want my life saving device thrown around and would prefer to Cary it on. Eventually we agreed that the airline would allow me but it is at security's discretion.

Security said nothing and here I am... But wtf?




I've had trouble exactly twice:

1. Melbourne, where I had to open my main and repack it right in the terminal.

2. Auckland, where they jumped so far up my ass they could tell I'd eaten five minutes beforehand.

In the future, I'd suggest thinking like this: There's a little electronic gizmo that runs the system. Here's the card from the manufacturer (they include the card. If you don't have one, they're not hard to get).
cavete terrae.

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milehigheric

Then i was asked if it contained a 'gas canister'. Being honest I said yes it has a small enclosed charge known as an automatic activation device - a backup device.



There's your problem.

They don't care much about AAD's. They do care about compressed gas cylinders found in bouncy aids you might jump with if near a body of water.

Your AAD does not have a gas canister in it. You told them it did. That means it can't go on.

By then going on to tell them you had an explosive device sat there you set off further alarms for them. Yes, there are American documents showing CYPRES is fine for travel but you were transiting between Australia and New Zealand and just told security you had a small explosive device sat in front of them. There's no wonder you got a grilling.

Less is more.

"Does it contain a gas canister?"
"No, it does not have a gas canister in it". (true)
"What's this red button thing here?"
"It's called an AAD, it's a little computer that automatically activates the reserve parachute if I am unconscious. I don't know exactly how it works. Neat though isn't it". (also true, you're not privy to proprietary CYPRES algorithms)
"have a nice day sir"

Don't use the word "explosive". Don't use the word "charge". Don't say it "fires". Don't use the word "cutter". You don't need to lie, but equally, you don't need to use words which make security type's butt holes twitch like a rabbits nose.


Edited to add: try to avoid having to turn it on for them. Security types also get twitchy when they see something counting down to zero. :o If you do have to, explain what's going to happen first.

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I found (when traveling in Aus and New Zealand, that having the Vigil papers with me, having a CYPRES card with me, my USPA membership, and the TSA forms, all provided enough for the security staff to work with. However, I did run into a snag exiting Sydney, and begged to speak with the pilot in command.
He authorized the gear to come on board.
However, mentioning the charge can create a problem. It's an electronically triggered cutting device. :P

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We had a lot of issues in March at Gatwick (LGW) when we tried to take two rigs as hand luggage (we had two in the hold already). The security guy had heard of AAD's but no one in security would be prepared to let us take them on the plane - the head of security explained that the cutter mechanism was (to them) a detonator - which they wouldn't let in the cabin. The same reasons they don't allow party poppers on the plane.

In the end we had to put them in the hold, luckily the airline didn't charge us for this. (shout out to EasyJet on that one).

In the end its down to who you get in security tbh.

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babz

In the end its down to who you get in security tbh.



One year at Seville security were sending everybody (bear in mind this was the Christmas boogie, so this was dozens of people at a time) back to check their rigs in. Since this meant Ryan Air for many, it meant eye-watering excess baggage charges and not a few tears as panicked people had to re-queue while their planes were boarding.

Lots of speculation resulted about them being in cahoots.

End result of this and other incidents though is that my rig goes in the hold in a hard case. It's out of my sight, but my rigger uses a seal and the rest I can check carefully at the other end.
--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

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Joellercoaster


End result of this and other incidents though is that my rig goes in the hold in a hard case. It's out of my sight, but my rigger uses a seal and the rest I can check carefully at the other end.

you don't remember the Thailand World Team incident of this american jumper who arrived there with a cut reserve cable ?
scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

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Joellercoaster

***In the end its down to who you get in security tbh.



One year at Seville security were sending everybody (bear in mind this was the Christmas boogie, so this was dozens of people at a time) back to check their rigs in. Since this meant Ryan Air for many, it meant eye-watering excess baggage charges and not a few tears as panicked people had to re-queue while their planes were boarding.

Lots of speculation resulted about them being in cahoots.

End result of this and other incidents though is that my rig goes in the hold in a hard case. It's out of my sight, but my rigger uses a seal and the rest I can check carefully at the other end.

You're far more trusting than I am. Not just the possibility of damage, but being out $7k if it doesn't arrive. The airline will NOT pay it.

I forgot about this because it was solved so quickly, but TSA tried to get me to check the rig once. I said the FAA recommends carrying it on, and the only way I'm checking it is if I get a written confirmation that the TSA will cover a full inspection by a rigger upon arrival, and 100% of new replacement cost including rush construction fees if the rig is lost or damaged in any way.

You're welcome to guess where the rig ended up :P
cavete terrae.

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piisfish

***
End result of this and other incidents though is that my rig goes in the hold in a hard case. It's out of my sight, but my rigger uses a seal and the rest I can check carefully at the other end.

you don't remember the Thailand World Team incident of this american jumper who arrived there with a cut reserve cable ?

I remember feeling a little sick when those pics got posted
cavete terrae.

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grue

******In the end its down to who you get in security tbh.



One year at Seville security were sending everybody (bear in mind this was the Christmas boogie, so this was dozens of people at a time) back to check their rigs in. Since this meant Ryan Air for many, it meant eye-watering excess baggage charges and not a few tears as panicked people had to re-queue while their planes were boarding.

Lots of speculation resulted about them being in cahoots.

End result of this and other incidents though is that my rig goes in the hold in a hard case. It's out of my sight, but my rigger uses a seal and the rest I can check carefully at the other end.

You're far more trusting than I am. Not just the possibility of damage, but being out $7k if it doesn't arrive. The airline will NOT pay it.

I forgot about this because it was solved so quickly, but TSA tried to get me to check the rig once. I said the FAA recommends carrying it on, and the only way I'm checking it is if I get a written confirmation that the TSA will cover a full inspection by a rigger upon arrival, and 100% of new replacement cost including rush construction fees if the rig is lost or damaged in any way.

You're welcome to guess where the rig ended up :P

But it's still a no-win situation if they simply say "No, you can't carry it on; you must check it; No, we're not giving you a written anything; and if you don't like that, you don't board the plane."

I don't know if this is a perfect solution, but I urge everyone to have a policy of insurance (such as homeowners' or dwelling-renters' insurance, in which the rig(s) is/are specifically scheduled (like you might with jewelry) ), that covers replacement cost of the rig if it is stolen. Make sure the policy affords you coverage outside the borders of your home nation. That at least gives you more of an option (even if not a perfect one) to check the rig as luggage if they won't let you carry it into the cabin.

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piisfish

you don't remember the Thailand World Team incident of this american jumper who arrived there with a cut reserve cable ?



I do... and cable continuity is one of the things I check at the beginning of the day.

It's not perfect - I can absolutely see the argument both ways. But random security behaviour seems to happen sufficiently more frequently that this is the way I feel least uncomfortable for the largest number of trips, I guess. Other people feel the other way and they're not wrong either.
--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

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piisfish

***
End result of this and other incidents though is that my rig goes in the hold in a hard case. It's out of my sight, but my rigger uses a seal and the rest I can check carefully at the other end.

you don't remember the Thailand World Team incident of this american jumper who arrived there with a cut reserve cable ?
--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

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I'll hold my words on the way back through for sure! Could someone link the documents they carry with them for cypress for reference tho. I found the TSA letters and the X-ray card is this all cypress has? Would be awesome if airtec could write a letter that clearly states it is safe for carry on with a bunch of cypress logos and the company's name on it. Seems like that is all the airline was after.

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Andy9o8



But it's still a no-win situation if they simply say "No, you can't carry it on; you must check it; No, we're not giving you a written anything; and if you don't like that, you don't board the plane."



At this point, the travel insurance covers me :) It's still an inconvenience but I'll take that over potentially dying because some halfwit managed to do something I didn't realize

Quote


I don't know if this is a perfect solution, but I urge everyone to have a policy of insurance (such as homeowners' or dwelling-renters' insurance, in which the rig(s) is/are specifically scheduled (like you might with jewelry) ), that covers replacement cost of the rig if it is stolen. Make sure the policy affords you coverage outside the borders of your home nation. That at least gives you more of an option (even if not a perfect one) to check the rig as luggage if they won't let you carry it into the cabin.



Truth.
cavete terrae.

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mr2mk1g


Don't tell them you want to take a "cutting device" onto their plane.

:D I had some TSA dorks pull out my wife's hook knife during an inspection ( I had forgotten to put it in the checked luggage). I said "Oh, that's a string cutter." They said that was fine and put it back in the pocket. Whew! :D

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milehigheric

I'll hold my words on the way back through for sure! Could someone link the documents they carry with them for cypress for reference tho. I found the TSA letters and the X-ray card is this all cypress has? Would be awesome if airtec could write a letter that clearly states it is safe for carry on with a bunch of cypress logos and the company's name on it. Seems like that is all the airline was after.



That sucks. I've flown with my rig carry-on between Sydney and Christchurch/Auckland every month for the past 4 years and never had an issue.

Good advice above re words never to say.

Here's a link to a Cypres clarification from NZ CAA.

http://www.skydivezone.co.nz/site/skydivezone/files/pdf%20files/NZ%20CAA%20CYPRES%20Non-dangerous.pdf

cheers
Ian Purvis
http://www.loadupsoftware.com
LoadUp DZ Management App
[email protected]

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Apparently, the 'security' people in Australia get a boner whenever they see a parachute... Although it was pre-911, back in 1995, I was forced to hand over my rig to "an airline agent", who promptly wrapped it in red, airline packing tape, and put it in the plane's baggage hold..... Never mind the Cypres 'sample X-ray' card, and instruction manual... The idiot security 'boss' said, "What if it opened on the plane!!!??? That is why we do not allow parachutes on board!"....
Coming back from Christ Church, I had cards from everyone, but the airport manager in NZ. The baggage X-ray guy there even called everyone over, to actually "see what a sport parachute looked like on the screen". So, I was carrying it off the plane, thinking I would go from that plane, to my BA flight out of Sydney. But, a security checkpoint greeted our arrival. The very guy that was ordered to take it from me... was surprised to see me, coming off the flight, with the rig over my shoulder. I showed him all of my airport security biz cards from NZ. He said, "This is Australia. We could care less about NZ officials." I told him I was NOT giving it up, this time... He put a 'guard' on me, for the walk to the BA flight. The guard asked the BA attendant if I was allowed to carry it onboard. She said, "Only if I can use it, if the plane goes down!" The folks in the line laughed. The 'guard' walked away....
I am very glad that Australia is no longer a part of my skydiving trips....
Two years ago, the TSA folks 'pulled my pins', NOT the handles, the PINS! I found out, after arriving in Europe.... That cost me $80, for a foreign pack job...... AND, of course, I had to have it repacked, upon arriving back in the States...
Practice random acts of kindness, and senseless beauty...

And, give money for Mr Douglas! www.mrdouglas.org

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Quote

the rig over my shoulder



Why would you carry it that way?

Of course you attract extra scrutiny!

To all of those that want to carry it on - not in a bag...this is not a good idea. Please suppress your desire to have your rig on your back. There are plenty of nervous people out there that might get security people involved as you wait for your flight. We do not need or want that kind of attention, as the hassle resulting from such incidents will encourage individual airlines, airports, and even the whole TSA (or whatever security service) to revisit their policy that allows us to carry on our rigs. Having it visible will cause problems and hurt us all, so please just don't do it. You might have to check it in anyway, as sometimes they simply say no and you can't change their minds, so you'd want to have a bag available for that possibility.

Having homeowner's/renter's insurance that will cover it sounds like a great plan, I will definitely check into that before I fly next time, in case I have to or choose to not carry it on.
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

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You have made an assumption that it was in 'plain sight'.... WRONG!

I carry it in my Ga Tech laundry bag, with only one strap poking out the opening, to 'carry on my shoulder'. So, take your theory elsewhere.....

I have only had problems, when dealing with idiots.... The only time the idiots have won, was leaving Sydney... There was one time, in Milwaukee, when another idiot refused to let me past a security checkpoint. My plan was to go the the Northwest World Club, which was in that concourse. I said, "OK', and walked to my departure concourse, where I was allowed to pass. Sitting on the plane, in 1st class, wearing a coat and tie, drinking coffee, chatting with the attendants...., this dweeb came on the plane, with guards!!!, saying he wanted the parachute!!! The captain intervened, saying he had no problem with me carrying it on board. The dweeb said, "It is not YOUR plane, until the door is closed!"...
The guards told him to, "We have seen enough here. Shut up, and get back to your concourse." That ended that one....
Practice random acts of kindness, and senseless beauty...

And, give money for Mr Douglas! www.mrdouglas.org

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>I carry it in my Ga Tech laundry bag, with only one strap poking out the opening, to
>'carry on my shoulder'. So, take your theory elsewhere.....

Ah, so people will see a parachute harness with an attempt to hide the parachute itself . . .

Bags work. They don't look nearly as cool, but in general that's a small price to pay.

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Capt36

I am very glad that Australia is no longer a part of my skydiving trips....



So the Aussies gave you a hard time but let you go about your business, and you're glad you never go there any more.

The US authorities pulled your pins without telling you and cost you a repack - wow man, you sure do live in the lucky country.
--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

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You should use in that case the proper phraseology. Just say that your rig has an electronic device and show them the X-ray card provided by the AAD manufacturer. When it is my turn at the security, I have all the papers ready including the TSA text mentionning about having a AAD equiped parachute in the cabin, my AAD X-ray card and my CSPA membership card as well.
You had no gas canister which means that you had no spray of any kind in pressurized can. This is when the troubles started when you say YES. Don't mention anything about the chemical charge which is by the way small enough to avoid any damage to your reserve in case of triggering.

Years ago I was passing the border back to Canada in my car, I said I had smoke bombs. The officer told me about this being in the 3rd explosive category or so, I told him that it was actually a smoke generator for visual effect when parachuting. The officer smiled and let me go.;)

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

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I should clarify... I didn't say yes to the gas canister question, I replied with "no but it has a cypress AAD". It opened up questioning which lead to me (the bad lier aim) mentioning 'charge'. I should have just stuck with no :) . That NZ CAA letter should pull some weight if I have dramas again tho cheers!

Airline was air New Zealand strife

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