Amazon 7 #126 January 10, 2011 Quote Quote Quote He was a *ways* up in that tree, too. Not just 30 ft in the air. No, I think it was more like 60 ft or more Just for reference, some EMTs use the formula that any fall from more then 3 times the height of the patient is considered 'severe'. Using that formula, anything between 15 and 20 would qualify as a 'severe' fall for most people. and add the fact that youre getting the shit knocked outta you on the way by branches, yeah. . . youre looking at a bad day. ACTUALLY That is the good thing about it.. everyone of them you bounce off of absorbs some of the energy that would otherwise pound your silly ass into the all too terra-way-too-firma. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mutumbo 0 #127 January 10, 2011 yeah you're not hitting the ground with as much force, but trust me, i think id rather just fall to the damn ground vs falling that far through a tree, too many pokey things.Thanatos340(on landing rounds)-- Landing procedure: Hand all the way up, Feet and Knees Together and PLF soon as you get bitch slapped by a planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ridestrong 1 #128 January 10, 2011 Quote Quote Quote So while 40 or 50 ft up in a tree doesn't sound like much in the world of skydiving... Sounds like about a 4 or 5 story building to me... I don't know any skydivers that wouldn't jump off a 4 or 5 story building. F$$K no - dude - BASE Jumpers MAYBE - but not SD One night when I was doing some volunteer work in the Emergency Dept. we had this guy come in that had "fallen" from a 3rd story balcony. Both of his femurs were fractured and were sticking out the middle of his thighs. They both had dirt and grass in them from when they stuck into the ground. He was in so much shock he wasn't even feeling any pain, that and he was full of morphine . Anyway it wasn't a pretty sight.*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.* ----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.---- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 261 #129 January 10, 2011 Quote Both of his femurs were fractured and were sticking out the middle of his thighs. They both had dirt and grass in them from when they stuck into the ground. Instant Garden Gnome. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mutumbo 0 #130 January 10, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Quote So while 40 or 50 ft up in a tree doesn't sound like much in the world of skydiving... Sounds like about a 4 or 5 story building to me... I don't know any skydivers that wouldn't jump off a 4 or 5 story building. F$$K no - dude - BASE Jumpers MAYBE - but not SD One night when I was doing some volunteer work in the Emergency Dept. we had this guy come in that had "fallen" from a 3rd story balcony. Both of his femurs were fractured and were sticking out the middle of his thighs. They both had dirt and grass in them from when they stuck into the ground. He was in so much shock he wasn't even feeling any pain, that and he was full of morphine . Anyway it wasn't a pretty sight. and that was only 30=40 ft. initial posts, from witnesses i think, are saying he was 70-90 ft up in a tree with no branches below 20 feet.Thanatos340(on landing rounds)-- Landing procedure: Hand all the way up, Feet and Knees Together and PLF soon as you get bitch slapped by a planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
azureriders 0 #131 January 10, 2011 QuoteHow exactly did he get said lady down? I obviously cannot answer this direct as I was not there, but I can outline the typical. It is pretty simple as long as the victim is conscious and able to help. A climber will climb up past them and get a belay point (fork in a limb works great) as close to directly above the victim as possible. This minimizes the swing angle the victim will encounter once released. With a large carbineer attached to the end of a rope the climber will swing it out to the victim and have them snap it to their chest strap. Once the free end of the rope is prepared for belay, the victim simply cuts away, swings under the belay point, and is lowered to the ground. If there is qualified help on the ground, and the victim is less than 75 feet high, then the ground crew can tend the free end of the rope during the belay process. If there is no ground crew or the victim is higher than 75 feet (assuming the use of a 150 feet climbing rope) then the climber can tend the belay from an elevated position. Normally from this point the climber can use the same belay point which his rope is already passed through to repel down to the parachute and free it from the tree, and then repel himself to the ground. 5 min to gear up 5 min to climb the tree 10 min to rig a belay and very carefully and slowly check all the safety points 5 min to lower the victim 15 min to extract the parachute being careful not to damage it 5 min to repel down and de-gear 45 min max requiring one climber with gear and one conscious victim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
azureriders 0 #132 January 11, 2011 Quote yeah you're not hitting the ground with as much force, but trust me, i think id rather just fall to the damn ground vs falling that far through a tree, too many pokey things. Being in the construction business and climbing trees all my life I have witnessed more falls than I like to think about. From my experience those that hit the ground direct are going to be hurt. Those that have things to fall into, grab onto, bounce off of, will have a good chance of walking away with some bangs and bruises. Falling through a tree, yes you may get poked, but you also may not. Falling from a tree, you will hit the ground at a high rate of speed, 100%. Just my choice, but if I have to fall, put as many things between me and the ground as possible. I guess if it ever happens none of us will really have this choice, we will just have to make do with what we have Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 143 #133 January 11, 2011 QuoteWith a large carbineer attached to the end of a rope the climber will swing it out to the victim and have them snap it to their chest strap. Once the free end of the rope is prepared for belay, the victim simply cuts away, swings under the belay point, and is lowered to the ground. A stupid question and showing ignorance on my behalf. I assume that when the person cuts away and swings under the belay point a fair amount of strain will be exerted on the chest strap? If that is the case are they safely rated for that type of loading as I am guessing it will be tending to pull inwards and upwards (towards the persons chin). In a similar vein do you need to perform any extra checks on the chest strap prior to suspending your weight from it?Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Halfpastniner 0 #134 January 11, 2011 QuoteQuoteWith a large carbineer attached to the end of a rope the climber will swing it out to the victim and have them snap it to their chest strap. Once the free end of the rope is prepared for belay, the victim simply cuts away, swings under the belay point, and is lowered to the ground. A stupid question and showing ignorance on my behalf. I assume that when the person cuts away and swings under the belay point a fair amount of strain will be exerted on the chest strap? If that is the case are they safely rated for that type of loading as I am guessing it will be tending to pull inwards and upwards (towards the persons chin). In a similar vein do you need to perform any extra checks on the chest strap prior to suspending your weight from it? Its probably not the best idea, but it would probably work. Personally, I would try and use webbing or a daisy chain and run it through my legstraps, then behind my chest strap. Then the chest strap keeps you head high, and the load is on the legstraps.BASE 1384 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #135 January 11, 2011 QuoteIts probably not the best idea, No, it's not. This is exactly what I'm talking about. When you use an amateur crew to rescue you from a tree, you take your chances that thngs will be done correctly and safely. For example, a whuffo with experience in paragloding may look at a static line jump as 'no big deal'. You just rig a rope to the plane and your pin and jump out. The truth is that he's 90% right, and 90% of the time that would probably work out just fine. However, the other 10% of the time is where the expertise of being a trained, rated instructor comes into play. Much the same way that the paraglider pilot sees it as 'no big deal', because he is ignorant to the finer points of dispathing static line students, so is the skydiver who feels it is 'no big deal' to conduct a tree rescue. You don't know what you don't know about tree climbing and rope rescue, and that's what get's people injured or killed after an otherwise uneventful tree landing. There is specialized training for rope rescue because it's complicated, full of pitfalls, and important that it be done crrectly. Likewise, talk to any tree trimming company, and they'll tell you that climbing trees for a living is a skill that you develop over time, and not something you just 'know' how to do. Keep both of those things in mind when attempting, or allowing an untrianed jumper to attempt to rescue you from a tree. Not every city is going to bill you for rescue services, and not every bill that is presented without prior notification of the possibility of billing, will be upheld in a court of law. Forget about the financial aspects, and make your decision based solely on the safety of the situation, and your feeling about the chances of a successful outcome. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,046 #136 January 11, 2011 Hi nigel, Quote I assume that when the person cuts away and swings under the belay point a fair amount of strain will be exerted on the chest strap? The vast majority of the stitching on a chest strap on a modern parachute system is a 3-point stitch pattern; either in-line with the MLW webbing or transverse to the MLW webbing. Just because I am a curious type & like to test things ( oh, did I mention that I am an engineer ), I did some testing of a chest strap mock-up. I took some webbing & stitched a 3-point pattern in-line with the MLW webbing ( because that is how I sew up a harness ). Then I pulled it tranversely to the stitching. In each case it broke at above a 2,500 lb load. I think you can rest easy that your chest strap will take the loading in the scenario described above. Just for your info . . . . JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #137 January 11, 2011 Yeah but some of us are pretty big guys Jerry! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
azureriders 0 #138 January 11, 2011 Quote A stupid question and showing ignorance on my behalf. I assume that when the person cuts away and swings under the belay point a fair amount of strain will be exerted on the chest strap? ……………… nigel There are many many finer points of the procedure that I described that has been left out due to the length of post required to list them all. This is one of them and not at all a stupid question. Once the belay is in play, the free end of the rope is pulled tight, and then tighter, until the weight of the jumper is slowly placed on the chest strap prior to cutting away. If you are lucky enough to get a belay point directly over the victim, then there is never more force placed on the chest strap than that of the victims own weight. I would guess only ten percent more from a bit of a swing under a rope that is already tight. To be honest, the swing angle, not the drop into the swing, is the biggest concern with this type of rescue. If the angle is too great, and additional safeties are not put into place, you can swing the victim back into the trunk of the tree, or other obstacle. Quote ……. In each case it broke at above a 2,500 lb load. I think you can rest easy that your chest strap will take the loading in the scenario described above. Jerry Thanks for the test data. The other climber at the DZ is also a rigger and we have spent a bit of time thinking out the fail points of our procedure. We did not have the test equipment to achieve this data. Now I know a number to toss out the next time this question comes up, as it is not the first time. Thanks again. Quote ………., I would try and use webbing or a daisy chain and run it through my legstraps, then behind my chest strap. Then the chest strap keeps you head high, and the load is on the legstraps. Niner At first design this was my approach as well as it does more closely follow the design of a parachute harness as for placement of load. The drawback is getting the victim to rig this up. You likely will not be able to reach them and you do not want to do anything to dislodge the parachute from the tree, including swinging/repelling to them and/or having them fidgeting in the harness trying to complete the rig. This could still be accomplished if you set up something like I described as a safety while the more complicated rigging is put into place, but I just don’t see the need. Sometimes a quick and easy line out to the victim, although at a higher angle than desired, can be used as a safety while a better belay point is reached at a lesser angle. Just a side note. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
azureriders 0 #139 January 11, 2011 Quote There is specialized training for rope rescue because it's complicated, full of pitfalls, and important that it be done crrectly. Likewise, talk to any tree trimming company, and they'll tell you that climbing trees for a living is a skill that you develop over time, and not something you just 'know' how to do. I agree on all points. I have been in the construction business for nearly 20 years now and have worked many jobs at heights as high as 300’. During this time I have completed multiple rope rescue courses specific to structure rescues and also conduct my own training to my employees. I have also always had a fascination with tree climbing which has prompted me to work with multiple different tree companies here and there through the years as well as completing one tree specific rope rescue course. Just as you say rope rescue is specialized, I will go even further and say it is even more so per location. As such I would not claim to know shit about a rock face rescue as I am not a mountaineer. The other climber I have mentioned at our DZ owns his own tree company. I think between the two of us we may know a bit about what we are talking about. For sure to be credited a bit higher than amateur. Now, in respect of Dave’s concerns let me make sure that I am clear to everyone else. I am not suggesting that anyone just go out and buy a rope and a pair of spurs and call themselves a tree rescue expert. What I was suggesting is that DZs in congested tree areas consider buying some good gear and having a couple of guys trained for such instances. Most tree rescues are fairly simple and can be done with basic training, however not without any training. There are going to be some that are far from simple and as with anything else one must know their own limits and when to ask for help, regardless of financial burdens. This gear and training will likely, or at least possibly, pay for itself in cut away retrieval alone. Farmer McFriendly will likely allow you to climb his tree. Famer McNasty is the guy who just found the tree you cut down to get your gear. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thrillstalker 0 #140 January 12, 2011 ***At first design this was my approach as well as it does more closely follow the design of a parachute harness as for placement of load. The drawback is getting the victim to rig this up. You likely will not be able to reach them and you do not want to do anything to dislodge the parachute from the tree, including swinging/repelling to them and/or having them fidgeting in the harness trying to complete the rig. This could still be accomplished if you set up something like I described as a safety while the more complicated rigging is put into place, but I just don’t see the need. *** that is an easy fix. attach a carabiner to each end of a fiveish foot rope. make a loop in the middle of the rope. the person stuck can snap the carabiners to his leg straps, pull the loop up through the inside of the chest strap, then connect the belaying rope to the loop in the middle of the five foot rope. this would only take one hand and will most likely not require the person stuck to move very much."Never grow a wishbone, where your backbone ought to be." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
azureriders 0 #141 January 12, 2011 Quotethat is an easy fix. attach a carabiner to each end of a fiveish foot rope. make a loop in the middle of the rope. the person stuck can snap the carabiners to his leg straps, pull the loop up through the inside of the chest strap, then connect the belaying rope to the loop in the middle of the five foot rope. this would only take one hand and will most likely not require the person stuck to move very much. what you have describe is no doubt the easiest way to rig back to the leg straps, however it still takes some moving around compared to just clipping into a cheststrap when you consider that the victim may be a nervous reck and hanging by twigs. A fix to a problem that does not exist. The chest strap holds just fine with no damage to the rg. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,046 #142 January 12, 2011 Hi riders, QuoteThanks for the test data. The other climber at the DZ is also a rigger and we have spent a bit of time thinking out the fail points of our procedure. We did not have the test equipment to achieve this data. Now I know a number to toss out the next time this question comes up, as it is not the first time. A couple of hours after I posted, I realized that I forgot to say that this testing did NOT include the light-weight stamped steel adjuster that is common on most rigs; and which is rated at only 500 lbs ( but that I am sure will go much more ). I only tested the stitching configuration. Just to make sure no one misunderstands, JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CSpenceFLY 1 #143 January 12, 2011 Time for another test. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #144 January 12, 2011 Why not just run the rope under both shoulder harnesses? Stronger and keeps you upright.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mutumbo 0 #145 January 12, 2011 Quote Time for another test. ill bring the beer! Thanatos340(on landing rounds)-- Landing procedure: Hand all the way up, Feet and Knees Together and PLF soon as you get bitch slapped by a planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
azureriders 0 #146 January 12, 2011 I would never 'plan' to run the rope under both shoulder harnesses because of rope burn damage to the rig. Now in a pinch it would get the victim down safely and they could deal with the possible rig damage later. A large carbineer around the shoulder harness would work. A split tail would also be easy enough to rig to both shoulder harnesses. I still do not see the need here, but nothing wrong with being extra careful. When rigging for shock loads, such as dropping pieces of a tree and catching them before they go through a roof, the working load of any equipment is ~10% of its breaking strength. In other words, if I am dropping a 2.000# piece of tree trunk, all my ropes and pulleys etc would be rated to a breaking strength of 20,000# or more. The same applies to me, all my climbing gear is rated to 2,500# pounds are more and therefore ready to catch me any time my big ass falls out of the tree with a climbing weight of ~250#. When there is no shock load, and only a static force will be applied, a 50% rule is actually fairly conservative. A 50% work load / breaking strength is still required in such cases as hoisting material up a job site that may have people working indirectly underneath, or in rescue situations. The adjustor on the chest strap seems to be weakest link and is rated at 500#. That is more than double the suspended weight of 'most' skydivers. In the case of a suspended anvil I would definitely consider a stronger rigging point. A rope rescue should NEVER be made where the rigging required shock load considerations. Obviously the applied shock would only make any injuries worse. If I could not accomplish the rigging without the risk of shock loading (or perhaps more likely, a high angle of swing under the belay point) then I would complete the rigging anyway, as a safety incase the situation became dynamic, and then wait for additional help. I honestly don't see such a situation happening to an experienced climber and rigger (the type of rigger that does mid air rigging that is). However I still included it here because not ALL rescue situations have to be simple. Everyone should know their limits and know when to request more help. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
azureriders 0 #147 January 12, 2011 Quote..........the only tree rescue I was involved in the FD met us there and held us back. After 30 to 45 minutes analyzing the situation they called a ladder truck that was 20 minutes away. As the truck pulled into the driveway the branch broke and the girl fell 30 feet to the ground............ The above quote was pulled from a PM. This is exactly why I think a DZ in a forrest area should consider putting together a tree rescue team. On one of our rescues the girl was hanging by twigs, which were poping and cracking and occasionaly letting her move down the tree six inches are so at a time. As JC was getting to her he was calling down to me to get set up quickly because he could see her moving. In our case she may have been ok as she was no more than 20 feet up and drapped down the side of a tree that may very well have keep snagging and releasing all the way until she was on the gound, or..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SwampGod 0 #148 January 13, 2011 QuoteThe above quote was pulled from a PM. This is exactly why I think a DZ in a forrest area should consider putting together a tree rescue team. Apart from the team itself, if a drop zone were to invest in gear, what would be on the shopping list? -eli Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mutumbo 0 #149 January 13, 2011 This list is isnt all inclusive by no means but the basics would be static rope, ascenders, descenders, some pulleys, prusik cord(personally LOVE the stuff) a RESCUE harness, anchor straps, various lengths and sizes of webbing, a pickoff strap, a shitload o carabeaners(cant ever have too many) and depending on what your enviroment is, a way to get to the top of the landscape be it trees rock faces whaterver. Make SURE every piece of gear is rated for climbig dont go to lowes and buy the cheapest gear you can find. Oh and the most important part of "equipment" someone who TRULY knows what they are doing given the situation, and has the proper TRAINING. Dont find some ude who has been climbing trees all his life but has no clue thow to preform a rescue. Typed this from my phone at work if youre TRULY interested then ill find you stuff more specific later.Thanatos340(on landing rounds)-- Landing procedure: Hand all the way up, Feet and Knees Together and PLF soon as you get bitch slapped by a planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SwampGod 0 #150 January 14, 2011 QuoteOh and the most important part of "equipment" someone who TRULY knows what they are doing given the situation, and has the proper TRAINING. Dont find some ude who has been climbing trees all his life but has no clue thow to preform a rescue. Typed this from my phone at work if youre TRULY interested then ill find you stuff more specific later. I'm most certainly interested in the equipment, as well as advice on what to look for in proper training. Thanks so much!! -eli Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
