The Israeli Pager attack

[JoeWeber 2,569]

45 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

This is the reason why President Harris will and should bring a more balanced approach to Israel. What Kamala Harris really thinks about Israel and Gaza Article for VOX dated July 25, 2024

To date the US state department has sanctioned individual Israeli settlers involved in these attacks.Which is a total joke. The US needs to hold a press conference stating that Netanyahu is personally accountable for the safety of these Palestinian farmers. That all aid will be halted if this continues.

The real backbone to this problem is Iran. Iran is meddling in many Arab countries in the region and all the Arab countries are concerned.So they have aligned closer to Israel as a counter to Iran. At the same time toned down the support for Palestinians. Mostly because Hamas is the winner if they support the Palestinians.

Agreed.

[JoeWeber 2,569]

13 minutes ago, kallend said:

Disagree.  These weren't random articles bought at the local Best Buy.  They were a bulk order by Hezbollah for its militia members to communicate.  Hezbollah is a militia at war with Israel and that regularly fires rockets at civilian targets in northern Israel.  As such, its communications equipment is a legitimate military target IMO.

What about the innocent fruit stand guy unknowingly selling a Hezbollah guy an apple? Is he also a legitimate target? If so then why not simply fire bomb the whole shebang and end it now? Well, because it wouldn't end it now, it would only create more opposition, and that's the problem. Sure it was ingenious to make the pagers into bombs and as satisfying as it may be for some to know that hundreds of people, including some Hezbollah actors, are now maimed I am not one. I don't agree with the method because it blindly accepts the maiming and killing of innocent civilians to achieve a very short term gain.

[jakee 1,347]

4 hours ago, kallend said:

Not Israels's fault if terrorists give terrorist purchased pagers to their kids.

No, of course not. It’s Israel’s fault that the pagers blew up and killed them.

[JoeWeber 2,569]

4 hours ago, kallend said:

Not Israels's fault if terrorists give terrorist purchased pagers to their kids.

Not the parents fault if the parents give a parent purchased AR-15 to their kids.

[kallend 1,826]

39 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Not the parents fault if the parents give a parent purchased AR-15 to their kids.

So terrorists shouldn't give their militia equipment to the kids.  I agree.  These pagers were bought  for the express purpose to be used by a militia for its secure communications.

[JoeWeber 2,569]

4 minutes ago, kallend said:

So terrorists shouldn't give their militia equipment to the kids.  I agree.  These pagers were bought  for the express purpose to be used by a militia for its secure communications.

We view this differently. The indiscriminate death and maiming of innocent people was the guaranteed result of this bit of cleverness. To my way of thinking, that alone means it was not worth the outcome. 

[jakee 1,347]

1 hour ago, kallend said:

So terrorists shouldn't give their militia equipment to the kids.  I agree.  These pagers were bought  for the express purpose to be used by a militia for its secure communications.

Right - they weren't bought for the express purpose of blowing up.

Look, if you're happy with this style of attack and that the collateral damage is worth it, that's fine. But claiming that Israel is not responsible for the victims of their bombs is not only a facile argument, it strongly suggests that you really aren't as comfortable with it as you claim to be.

[JerryBaumchen 1,271]

57 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

We view this differently. The indiscriminate death and maiming of innocent people was the guaranteed result of this bit of cleverness. To my way of thinking, that alone means it was not worth the outcome. 

Hi Joe,

Yes, we do.

If someone were shooting missiles at you indiscriminately, what would you do?  Turn the other cheek?

I'm with John Kallend on this one.

They are at war. 

Jerry Baumchen

[normiss 723]

3 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Joe,

Yes, we do.

If someone were shooting missiles at you indiscriminately, what would you do?  Turn the other cheek?

I'm with John Kallend on this one.

They are at war. 

Jerry Baumchen

Hey Jerry,

Would that someone shooting missiles at me be the same someone I kept in a cage for 75+ years and tortured for all those years? Stopping their food, electricity, water whenever the mood struck? Mowing down their houses with bulldozers when the mood struck to try to edge closer to beautiful oceanfront property???

I'm never going to understand the Two State agreement the way the Israelis do.

But it's religious, so ...

[billvon 2,739]

2 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

What about the innocent fruit stand guy unknowingly selling a Hezbollah guy an apple? Is he also a legitimate target? If so then why not simply fire bomb the whole shebang and end it now?

Because this way they kill fewer of those fruit stand guys.

Zero bystander casualties isn't possible with a military force who hides under children's hospitals and behind schools.  But the closer they can get to zero, the better.

[JerryBaumchen 1,271]

11 minutes ago, normiss said:

Hey Jerry,

Would that someone shooting missiles at me be the same someone I kept in a cage for 75+ years and tortured for all those years? Stopping their food, electricity, water whenever the mood struck? Mowing down their houses with bulldozers when the mood struck to try to edge closer to beautiful oceanfront property???

I'm never going to understand the Two State agreement the way the Israelis do.

But it's religious, so ...

Hi Mark,

The Palestinians only have to reach a peace agreement with the Israelis and then they can make progress on all of their disputes.

IMO it is the shards of Arafat that are still causing the problems.

War is hell.

Jerry Baumchen

 

[kallend 1,826]

17 minutes ago, jakee said:

Right - they weren't bought for the express purpose of blowing up.

Look, if you're happy with this style of attack and that the collateral damage is worth it, that's fine. But claiming that Israel is not responsible for the victims of their bombs is not only a facile argument, it strongly suggests that you really aren't as comfortable with it as you claim to be.

Last time I checked Hezbollah had no scruples about firing rockets at civilians including children.  None.  They've been doing it for years.  

 

These were HEZBOLLAH's pagers.  Things a terrorist militia purchased for its own nefarious use.  Kids didn't go out and purchase them at the local market.

[JerryBaumchen 1,271]

2 minutes ago, kallend said:

Last time I checked Hezbollah had no scruples about firing rockets at civilians including children.  None.  They've been doing it for years.  

 

These were HEZBOLLAH's pagers.  Things a terrorist militia purchased for its own nefarious use.  Kids didn't go out and purchase them at the local market.

Hi John,

This ^^^^^^

Jerry Baumchen

 

[JerryBaumchen 1,271]

14 hours ago, nigel99 said:

I have mixed feelings about war crimes when fighting terrorists. Conventional warfare doesn’t really work. This seems like quite a targeted method to have limited innocent casualties. 

Hi Nigel,

IMO the Israelis are just doing to Hezbollah what they have been doing to Israeli citizens for yrs.

Jerry Baumchen

 

[jakee 1,347]

1 minute ago, kallend said:

Last time I checked Hezbollah had no scruples about firing rockets at civilians including children.  None.  They've been doing it for years.  

Fine. If you're happy with Israel blowing up kids in retaliation, that's valid. But this doesn't mean Israel is not responsible for blowing up these kids. (We won't even go into how many rockets Israel has fired at kids in Gaza in the last year, that's a separate issue.)

 

4 minutes ago, kallend said:

These were HEZBOLLAH's pagers.  Things a terrorist militia purchased for its own nefarious use.  Kids didn't go out and purchase them at the local market.

??? I don't even know what you're trying to say now. Israel put the bombs in them, Israel made them blow up, the dead children are Israel's responsibilty. Again, if you believe it's justified and you're comfortable with it, that's valid. But claiming that Israel is not responsible for them is an utter nonsense.

[JerryBaumchen 1,271]

13 hours ago, Phil1111 said:

When the Pilgrims landed in Massachusetts they never asked the local Indians for the deeds of the tribe.

 

Hi Phil,

At the Nuremberg Trials, Herman Goring tried to justify the Third Reich's conquering all of those nations in Europe because the newly landed 'Americans' did the same to the native peoples that were here first.

We both know how well that worked.

Jerry Baumchen

 

[jakee 1,347]

7 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Nigel,

IMO the Israelis are just doing to Hezbollah what they have been doing to Israeli citizens for yrs.

Since 2008 there have been more Palestinian children killed in the West Bank alone than Israeli civilians everywhere, including illegal expansionist settlers. Hezbollah will say exacty what you just said the other way around.

https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties

[kallend 1,826]

30 minutes ago, jakee said:

Fine. If you're happy with Israel blowing up kids in retaliation, that's valid. But this doesn't mean Israel is not responsible for blowing up these kids. (We won't even go into how many rockets Israel has fired at kids in Gaza in the last year, that's a separate issue.)

 

??? I don't even know what you're trying to say now. Israel put the bombs in them, Israel made them blow up, the dead children are Israel's responsibilty. Again, if you believe it's justified and you're comfortable with it, that's valid. But claiming that Israel is not responsible for them is an utter nonsense.

OK, so you love terrorists who hide behind human shields, and disparage attempts to eliminate them, we get it.

[Faicon9493 133]

I wonder what impact this may have on the hostages, if any are still alive?

[Phil1111 1,081]

21 minutes ago, jakee said:

Since 2008 there have been more Palestinian children killed in the West Bank alone than Israeli civilians everywhere, including illegal expansionist settlers. Hezbollah will say exacty what you just said the other way around.

https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties

Perhaps but Hezbollah, Hamas, the IRGC and Artesh all put civilians and children into the front lines to achieve military objectives.

I get your point but positioning civilians in front of military operations is a part of their procedures.What has received little press is the tens of thousands of civilian casualties caused by Hamas because they have insisted on holding the captives. Operating in hospitals and schools.

[JoeWeber 2,569]

41 minutes ago, billvon said:

Because this way they kill fewer of those fruit stand guys.

Zero bystander casualties isn't possible with a military force who hides under children's hospitals and behind schools.  But the closer they can get to zero, the better.

Maybe, but when you attack with a weapon that is guaranteed to increase the size of your enemies military force you make a bad trade. By logical extension fire bombing Gaza and Lebanon makes better sense than tit for tat because when the final tally is made fewer innocent bystanders would be killed.

[kallend 1,826]

33 minutes ago, jakee said:

 

 

??? I don't even know what you're trying to say now. Israel put the bombs in them, Israel made them blow up, the dead children are Israel's responsibilty. Again, if you believe it's justified and you're comfortable with it, that's valid. But claiming that Israel is not responsible for them is an utter nonsense.

Nonsense.  Israel targeted terrorists' communication devices, obtained by terrorists for their own tactical use.  Israel didn't give to kids stuff that is being used quite purposefully as military hardware.

OTOH Hezbollah for years has deliberately targeted civilians, both in Israel and in terrorist attacks elsewhere in the world.

 

Your attempt at an equivalence is totally bogus.

[billvon 2,739]

3 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

By logical extension fire bombing Gaza and Lebanon makes better sense than tit for tat because when the final tally is made fewer innocent bystanders would be killed.

No, that's the exact opposite of what I said.

If we had a way to kill every Hezbollah militant who has taken up arms against Israel with zero collateral damage, that would be a good outcome.  Israel is not going to accomplish that.  But I support attempts in that direction.  Indeed, if they did more of that and fewer rocket attacks, the number of innocent dead would go way down.

 

[JoeWeber 2,569]

2 minutes ago, billvon said:

No, that's the exact opposite of what I said.

If we had a way to kill every Hezbollah militant who has taken up arms against Israel with zero collateral damage, that would be a good outcome.  Israel is not going to accomplish that.  But I support attempts in that direction.  Indeed, if they did more of that and fewer rocket attacks, the number of innocent dead would go way down.

 

Intractable doesn't begin to describe the problem. I'm not opposed to killing bad actors who have it coming. Far from it. But I just don't think this sort of attack is helpful. The reality is that the killings will just go on and on until the parties of God no longer have a say in the outcome and our opinions here will matter as much then.

 

[billvon 2,739]

Just now, JoeWeber said:

Intractable doesn't begin to describe the problem.

Agreed.
 

Quote

But I just don't think this sort of attack is helpful. 

Neither is ignoring it, or just writing a sternly worded letter whenever they kidnap/kill Israeli civilians.  There are no good options.  They are trying to choose the least bad of those options.  They often get it wrong, but to their credit they do (often) try,