Tandems on First Pass and Experienced Higher?

[[email protected] 2]

20 years ago, just before my hiatus, a DZ near me began a regular practice of putting out the tandems at 13k and then running the experienced jumpers to 17.  This bothered me because there was little or no way to know if a tandem had a high opening. The experienced spotter should be looking for any type of traffic before exit but a high tandem might be hard to see.   

I'd like to know if this has become common practice or if it's still a rarity.  Am I being too concerned?

I apologize if this has been covered before.  I searched and didn't see it addressed.

Brian 

D-12271

 

 

[riggerrob 598]

First time that I have heard of routinely putting out licensed jumpers at 17,000 feet.

Many years ago I did a handful of tandem jumps from 19,000 at a boogie and concluded that was a stupid practice. That was the same year that I attended the RCAF’s high altitude indoctrination course. That was also back when I often used a 20 km run to cure hangovers. I drank a lot back in those days.

Legally, civilians are suppose to suck on supplemental oxygen any time they fly above 12,000 or 12,500 feet. Any higher than that is stupid!

[chuckakers 416]

19 hours ago, riggerrob said:

Legally, civilians are suppose to suck on supplemental oxygen any time they fly above 12,000 or 12,500 feet. Any higher than that is stupid!

The FAR requires oxygen to be "provided" to passengers. I don't believe there is a requirement to use it.

[riggerrob 598]

Now you are sounding like a “barracks lawyer.” “Barracks lawyers” are typically enlisted soldiers with 1 percent of the law knowledge required to pass the legal bar. The naval equivalent is “mess deck lawyers.”

Arguing over the finer points of law about whether you should be sucking on supplemental oxygen whenever you fly above 12,000 feet Canadian Air Regulations or 12,500 feet American Federal Air Regulations is silly.

I have done a handful of tandems from 19,000 feet and concluded that was a stupid and dangerous practice. That was the same year I attended the RCAF’s High Altitude Indoctrination Course and ran a bunch of half-marathons. I used half-marathons as a hang-over cure back when I drank heavily. I drank heavily and often that year.

The scary thing about hypoxia is that it produces a sense of euphoria in some people, so that they are hypoxic but feeling better than ever. If they fly at “oxygen altitudes” for too long, they make silly mistakes and eventually lose consciousness. 

Bottom line: extended flight above 10,000 feet is stupid and dangerous and the average skydiver has less than half the knowledge required to stay alive at those altitudes.

Edited September 14 by riggerrob

[wolfriverjoe 1,462]

On 9/14/2024 at 12:06 PM, chuckakers said:

The FAR requires oxygen to be "provided" to passengers. I don't believe there is a requirement to use it.

Correct.

But, unlike what Rob says, the rules require it to be used by crew above 12500 for more than 30 minutes, anytime above 14000, and provided to passengers above 15k.

FAR 91.211

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/chapter-I/subchapter-F/part-91/subpart-C/section-91.211

I never heard of tandems being put out well below fun jumpers like the OP claimed.
Also unaware of any DZ regularly taking fun jumpers to 17k. I would think ATC might notice regular 'above oxygen required' altitudes and perhaps a ramp check might happen. 

I never got any 'official word', but I remember that some high altitude (oxygen required and used) formation attempts got the attention of the local FSDO, and the DZO either got a phone call or a quick visit to make sure he knew that altitudes that high (18k) required oxygen. 
It was a friendly and mostly informal contact, although I'd kinda guess that if he hadn't answered "yes, we are aware of the rules, have oxygen to use and will be using it", it might have gone differently.

Again, info from a casual conversation with 'non-management DZ staff'.

[wmw999 2,313]

27 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

I never heard of tandems being put out well below fun jumpers like the OP claimed.

Only on dedicated loads; I don't remember seeing any going out before the up-jumpers.

Wendy P.

[chuckakers 416]

10 hours ago, wmw999 said:

Only on dedicated loads; I don't remember seeing any going out before the up-jumpers.

Wendy P.

I have seen a few places over the years that use an altitude based pricing structure for tandems as an up sell. In those situations, tandems were dropped at 9.5k or 10k and the rest of the load was taken to 13 to 15k. Tandems that paid for extra altitude went all the way up and exited after the full altitude fun jumpers.

[chuckakers 416]

On 9/14/2024 at 5:04 PM, riggerrob said:

Now you are sounding like a “barracks lawyer.”

Arguing over the finer points of law about whether you should be sucking on supplemental oxygen whenever you fly above 12,000 feet Canadian Air Regulations or 12,500 feet American Federal Air Regulations is silly.

Barracks Lawyer? No sir. I am not arguing "the finer points of the law", nor am I arguing the safety factors of various scenarios. I am simply clarifying the FAR for others' benefit. I am stating the actual FAR. Nothing more, nothing less.

To be absolutely clear, there is NO REQUIREMENT for occupants to use oxygen. The regulation only addresses the requirement to PROVIDE oxygen.

There is a lot of misunderstanding in this area, so it's important to get it right. FAR 91.211 reads....

§ 91.211 Supplemental oxygen.
(a) General. No person may operate a
civil aircraft of U.S. registry—
(1) At cabin pressure altitudes above
12,500 feet (MSL) up to and including
14,000 feet (MSL) unless the required
minimum flight crew is provided with
and uses supplemental oxygen for that
part of the flight at those altitudes
that is of more than 30 minutes dura-
tion;
(2) At cabin pressure altitudes above
14,000 feet (MSL) unless the required
minimum flight crew is provided with
and uses supplemental oxygen during
the entire flight time at those alti-
tudes; and
(3) At cabin pressure altitudes above
15,000 feet (MSL) unless each occupant
of the aircraft is provided with supple-
mental oxygen.

[Trafficdiver 8]

On 9/16/2024 at 7:31 AM, chuckakers said:

I have seen a few places over the years that use an altitude based pricing structure for tandems as an up sell. In those situations, tandems were dropped at 9.5k or 10k and the rest of the load was taken to 13 to 15k. Tandems that paid for extra altitude went all the way up and exited after the full altitude fun jumpers.

The place I learned to skydive did that. One pass at 10K for tandems, one at 13.5 for fun jumpers.  One time a tandem student pulled early at around 9K.  We then did a 2 way from 13.5, not knowing about the tandem that pulled high. I ended up opening about 100 yards from the tandem, wondering why our two way had turned into three canopies open next to each other. 

All tandems should go out after fun jumpers IMHO.

I don't jump at that place anymore.

Edited September 18 by Trafficdiver

[chuckakers 416]

19 hours ago, Trafficdiver said:

The place I learned to skydive did that. One pass at 10K for tandems, one at 13.5 for fun jumpers.  One time a tandem student pulled early at around 9K.  We then did a 2 way from 13.5, not knowing about the tandem that pulled high. I ended up opening about 100 yards from the tandem, wondering why our two way had turned into three canopies open next to each other. 

All tandems should go out after fun jumpers IMHO.

I don't jump at that place anymore.

Good point. The "tandems first" strategy must include safety personnel on the ground with comms to the pilot to make sure that doesn't happen.

Depending on the amount of the up-charge and the aircraft being used, it may not even add much to the bottom line when the extra flight time from leveling off for the first jump run is put into the equation.

[Andy9o8 1]

On 9/16/2024 at 9:10 AM, chuckakers said:

Barracks Lawyer? No sir. I am not arguing "the finer points of the law", nor am I arguing the safety factors of various scenarios. I am simply clarifying the FAR for others' benefit. I am stating the actual FAR. Nothing more, nothing less.

To be absolutely clear, there is NO REQUIREMENT for occupants to use oxygen. The regulation only addresses the requirement to PROVIDE oxygen.

There is a lot of misunderstanding in this area, so it's important to get it right. FAR 91.211 reads....

§ 91.211 Supplemental oxygen.
(a) General. No person may operate a
civil aircraft of U.S. registry—
(1) At cabin pressure altitudes above
12,500 feet (MSL) up to and including
14,000 feet (MSL) unless the required
minimum flight crew is provided with
and uses supplemental oxygen for that
part of the flight at those altitudes
that is of more than 30 minutes dura-
tion;
(2) At cabin pressure altitudes above
14,000 feet (MSL) unless the required
minimum flight crew is provided with
and uses supplemental oxygen during
the entire flight time at those alti-
tudes; and
(3) At cabin pressure altitudes above
15,000 feet (MSL) unless each occupant
of the aircraft is provided with supple-
mental oxygen.

I agree with your interpretation of para. (a)(3) - but that said, it's poorly drafted, because it arguably leaves the definition of "occupant" ambiguous. IMO, to avoid this ambiguity, it should say something like (for example) "...each occupant, exclusive of required minimum flight crew who are required to use supplemental oxygen, is provided..."

Edited September 24 by Andy9o8
Clarification

[JerryBaumchen 1,263]

46 minutes ago, Andy9o8 said:

I agree with your interpretation of para. (a)(3) - but that said, it's poorly drafted, because it arguably leaves the definition of "occupant" ambiguous. IMO, to avoid this ambiguity, it should say something like (for example) "...each occupant, exclusive of required minimum flight crew who are required to use supplemental oxygen, is provided..."

Hi Andy,

Welcome back.  I hope that you will hang around for awhile.

Jerry Baumchen