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Avikus

Short Term Skydivers

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Avikus

I started to see signs of "Short Term Skydivers".



I made my first sport jump while in the 82nd Airborne Division at Ft. Bragg, NC in 1960.

In 1969 I opened my first DZ. I was a DZO for 4-5 years. I then was a "Gypsy" pilot flying a DZs in the Delaware Valley (PA, NJ, MD, DE)

I "retired" from jumping before AFF instruction began and tandems were "invented". Back in the '60s if a person wanted to make a "bucket list" jump they did it solo as a static line student.

I'm curious about something that those of you reading this thread may know: Has anyone done a statistical analysis of number of students who make tandems or S/L jumps who go onto AFF or static line progression?

Is there any evidence that tandems produce either more or less "longer term skydivers over AFF or SL.

For al lthe things I've seen over the years, the one which is most mind boggling to me is paying another person to pack your rig. I simply do not get that concept.

Being a skydiver is knowing how to pack your own rig and having the guts to do so on every jump.

I guess I'm really old fashioned.
Guru312

I am not DB Cooper

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I've only been around tandem skydiving for a couple of years (previous jumping history there was no tandem)

The impact of tandem is going to be highly dependant on the operation, I've spoken to people who having done a tandem and enjoyed it, didn't even realise they could learn to do it on their own! There is a new breed of jumper as well, repeat tandem jumpers, I've got a friend who recently got her A, but she would rather do tandems than jump herself - the biggest reason for going solo was cost not the desire to be in control.

I would say as a percentage modern skydivers stick around less. Tandems and the changes to the sport are a big part of that. Old school jumping took a different mindset and for the most part if people got to their B license they stuck around. But it was the days when no AAD and 50 jumps a year was a reasonably high number. The higher exposure now brings higher throughput. I also think the.absolute terror of your first freefall alone with no backup (other than your reserve) deterred many people. It wasn't better or worse than now, just different.
Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

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DcloudZ

Arrive at DZ -> Jump -> Go home and post pictures on social networking sites = Short term

The difference from my point of view is that the short-termers see skydiving as a hobby/activity whereas the long-term jumpers see it as a sport/passion/way of life.

It's not for everyone...




After 38 years in the sport never taking a lay-off it now appears I'm 'Short Term' Skydiver...

Well Fuck Me.:ph34r:










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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I don't really count my first 5 years @1 tandem/yr, so I call it 11 years, but if I did I've been in the sport for a total of 16 years, pretty much my entire adult life, but didn't really get in till AFF at 25 when it became the defining activity of my life. 11+ years as an active jumper 10 of those a dedicated wingsuit freak, 8 or 9 of those years teaching it. AFF now looks and feels like childhood in my memory.

First 3 to 5 years I wondered if I had it in me to keep it together and stay in it for the long haul... but never really had much doubt. As the seasons rolled by there was no room for doubt, too busy flying.

Way too much fun, way too many friends, way too many glorious sights, the harder I pushed the more rewarding it became. Getting in on the ground floor as wingsuits were just getting started was the defining choice. Watched suits go from primitive stumpy triangles to car-cover-sized aerial battleships you can fly alongside open canopies with that require 5 years of flying just to properly qualify for. Participated in their development.

Watched completely impossible things become easy, then taken for granted by the new generations. Learned what an endless progression -really- means. 10 years in as a human bird, I'm still just as excited and on fire about it as I was the day I began, and I'm mastering my 6th suit, counting homemades and handbuilt modified variants.

I've learned it takes about 2 years just to truly begin to master any particular suit. Longer, and you begin to learn all the subtle, awesome secrets that complex gear reveals only to those who gain unconscious mastery by patience and discipline over timespans measuring 2-5 years at a whack. Fly something 2 years longer than anyone else bothers to, and you begin to manifest honest-to-god superpowers with it, complex effects you can't eve SEE till you've flown it for so long you haven't thought much about it in a year or two. Ask any serious canopy pilot. When you see someone who actually wore out a piece of equipment, fear them. They've forgotten more about their art than most people will ever learn.

Works the same in all disciplines. Now I see somebody with 4 or 5 years in and think, a couple more years and they'll start to get -really- good, start to display the kind of awareness in the sky only the real hardcore jumpers have. You just recognize it... yup, this guy lives up here too. Lived up here long enough to know the neighborhood.
After a decade, a picture really starts to form. You know the long and short timers. Entire short generations of jumpers come, work up the ranks, peak out, fade away, and you're still here.

Some last a few seasons and life takes them away, some realize they finally have come home, dig in their heels and stay forever. To stay in, I've kept my home within 15 miles of the DZ and done whatever I had to in order to stay active. Haven't gone uncurrent since the day I started AFF.

By now I know I'm in this for life. I've toned it down in recent years, finally just to divert funds to motorcycle, retirement, savings, mature adult concerns... but for 6 months of any given year, flight is my life, travelling, competing, teaching, testing, never enough weekends to do all I want to do, which is how I know this can keep me happy for a lifetime. To this day, when I land I usually come down laughing, howling, or both. You can't put a price on a life spent this way. Closest thing to immortality a person can experience, I suppose. How bad do you want it? The question answers itself. I sold my soul for this. Got a damn good price for it, too. Decade of intense happiness, no end in sight? SOLD!!! To the man in the blue and white wingsuit!
Welcome to heaven. Your assigned cloud is whichever one you want that you can reach. Have fun, don't snag your halo on your way out the door.
-B
Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

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Hi!
This is my first post here but the topic is so close to my heart.
I am (still) one of the short-terms. I wanted to skydive because of it being so ‘cool’. Or maybe is that the famous midlife crisis?
Anyway, I went to do some tunnel time first – I had over 30mins before my AFF.
Taken one week off work, booked a B&B close to a DZ made payments… Done everything according to plan to become skydiver.
The AFF went perfect and much easier that I would ever imagine – theory, Levels 1-7 and CH1 all done.
But there was the fear. And the fear was huge… Worst was the ride to altitude and the ‘door’.
Every next jump was not about enjoyment or even getting it done – it was about beat that door.
I have done 5 consolidations jumps and left. That was 6 weeks ago.
I was going to go back and jump every weekend and then when the day arrived – I stayed at home because of the fear…
It has nothing to do with photos and Facebook (I do not have an account) not with any kind of risk assessment, lack of time or money. In my case it is about lack of balls :/

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I went through the same thing, you gotta dig deep within yourself and overcome the fear that's holding you back. Turn your I should jump into a I must jump, as you jump more and more the paralyzing fear will dissipate and be replaced by the survival fear that will drive you do jumping safely through planning your dives, multiple gear checks before you get on the plane and multiple gear and handle checks and the ride to altitude.

just my 2 cents

"The greater danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it." - Michelangelo

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shortterm



But there was the fear. And the fear was huge… Worst was the ride to altitude and the ‘door’.
Every next jump was not about enjoyment or even getting it done – it was about beat that door./



We all have to work through this. It's easier for some than others. Brians book might be worth a look see: http://www.transcendingfear.com/books.html

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Sky_doggy

***

But there was the fear. And the fear was huge… Worst was the ride to altitude and the ‘door’.
Every next jump was not about enjoyment or even getting it done – it was about beat that door./



We all have to work through this.

No, we don't all have to. Stopping jumping because it is not pleasurable or enjoyable is a perfectly valid choice. I jump because the benefits (to me) outweigh the risks (to me). I never dealt with paralyzing door fear, although I had a pretty usual and normal amount of anxiety on my first few jumps it went away pretty quickly. It I have door fear to that degree my whole calculus about risk/benefit would change. It is a personal choice.
"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

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I don't know. It took me 2 years to get through my A license in Florida. I was determined to get my A, but I started as a single mom and the closest DZ was 2 hours from my house. I kept with it when I had the money and was careful to not fall out of currency. I did finish my A and I needed water safety training to get my B. I just moved to Iowa and I don't see how I can keep jumping. The weather is iffy, the DZs are far, it is a huge sacrifice to give up money, family vacations and weekends to go jump, and now my kids are afraid I am going to die. So, after 3 years and only 50 jumps, I am taking a leave of absense. I suspect I will be jumping again in the next couple of years. I am very happy to have met all of the friends I made and conquer my fear of heights and living, but skydiving was the first selfish thing I had done in my adult life. It changed my life and perspective. I will always consider myself a skydiver, I just may not be in the air for awhile. Skydiving was not about a way of life to me, I don't drink beer, and I did not jump every weekend- once a month. Skydiving was for me, about me, about freedom and flight, about friends, but I never let it consume my life. Admittedly, most of my friends are skydivers though and all very mad at me for taking a LOA.

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When I ask this question I didn't have "Fear", "Money", "Time", "location" and all other valid excuse in mind.

It was mostly how much of a attention someone had toward the sport... the signs that show short attention spam ... SQUIRREL!
Avikus - Packer and Jumper - Hate landing with the plane!

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Avikus


It was mostly how much of a attention someone had toward the sport... the signs that show short attention spam ... SQUIRREL!



So what? Why does it matter to you if people are into it "for life" or "for a few months"? Are you only allowed to do more than a tandem if you can commit to at least 10 years of jumping no less than 100 times / year?

That would suck if those were the rules because I would have missed out on meeting some super cool folks that were only part of the sport for a short(er) time. (Or I might have missed out altogether because there have been a couple years that, for various reasons that probably aren't on your list of "valid" ones that I didn't hit that magical minimum number of jumps that made me a "real" skydiver.)
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

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You didn't say if it got easier at all the more jumps you did in a day. In my case it definitely does, and conversely, if I leave it for a while, the butterflies build up proportionately. If you have made your mind up to do no more, I can tell you that I did the same on half of the jumps I've done, but I'm still here doing them. So I reckon most of us can relate to some extent to what you are saying, if my experience is anything to go by( 19 freefalls and 34 military/static line). I hope you stick with it because I think I've felt equally nervous but wouldn't want to leave this great new thing now that I've found how good it is. Good Luck anyway

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shortterm

Every next jump was not about enjoyment or even getting it done – it was about beat that door.



There were three or four times when I talked myself out of going to the DZ during my training because I didn't want to deal with that. I did eventually go do it, though.

I thought I was over door fear this spring but rode up sitting on the floor in front of it one day and when they opened it to cool things off on the ride to altitude, I felt my knees creeping away from it. I stared at them thinking, "Huh... that's interesting..."

Of course, now I'm making it a point to seek out a spot close to it until I can just hang my foot out the door for 3000 feet as I've seen my instructors do. I also make it a point to stick my hand out the door whenever I'm close enough to it. That makes you 20% cooler in the eyes of the tandem students!
I'm trying to teach myself how to set things on fire with my mind. Hey... is it hot in here?

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skydiver604

I went through the same thing, you gotta dig deep within yourself and overcome the fear that's holding you back. Turn your I should jump into a I must jump, as you jump more and more the paralyzing fear will dissipate and be replaced by the survival fear that will drive you do jumping safely through planning your dives, multiple gear checks before you get on the plane and multiple gear and handle checks and the ride to altitude.

just my 2 cents

OR NOT

it's a perfectly valid reason to NOT skydive. Far to many people do not take the seriousness of this sport into real account.
If someone tries skydiving and then has a REAL understanding of what the LETHAL nature of the sport can be. then they decide it's not for them, that's fine.
Not all fear should be overcome. It's a survival instinct and it's there for very good reason.
You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

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skydiver604 wrote:
.

I went through the same thing, you gotta dig deep within yourself and overcome the fear that's holding you back. Turn your I should jump into a I must jump, as you jump more and more the paralyzing fear will dissipate and be replaced by the survival fear that will drive you do jumping safely through planning your dives, multiple gear checks before you get on the plane and multiple gear and handle checks and the ride to altitude.

just my 2 cents
OR NOT

it's a perfectly valid reason to NOT skydive. Far to many people do not take the seriousness of this sport into real account.
If someone tries skydiving and then has a REAL understanding of what the LETHAL nature of the sport can be. then they decide it's not for them, that's fine.
Not all fear should be overcome. It's a survival instinct and it's there for very good reason.



Really??? According to his post AFF went well, what's he supposed to do?? Quit?? just like that? Based on his post he passed AFF and has to get past the fear factor,,,,we'd live in a pretty sorry world if people just quit something because it's too hard, fear is the biggest factor that holds people back from their dreams, if he had said in his post that he struggled through AFF and was lacking confidence in his ability to be safe my response would have been a lot different, if people didn't dig deep and get past their fears and venture out of their comfort zone we'd still be living in the Stone Age, this just doesn't apply to skydiving, it also applies to ALL aspects of our lives from health and fitness to finance, relationships etc.

"The greater danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it." - Michelangelo

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Squeak


it's a perfectly valid reason to NOT skydive. Far to many people do not take the seriousness of this sport into real account.



Regarding the difference in viewpoints between Squeak and Skydive604:

Perhaps it can be argued that fear is not a reason to quit, unless it is so strong that it seriously affects performance. Or unless the person was in dreamland before and only then realized that, gee, maybe it is possible to get killed in the sport.

Deciding whether to quit should be made on the basis of a more objective evaluation of risks. If the reward to you isn't worth the risk, ok then quit. Indeed, a lot of fear can be interpreted as lack of reward for the activity, and thus be a reason to quit.

Whether a student is scared witless in the door or is pretty calm about it all, will be poorly correlated to the actual amount of risk they are experiencing as a skydiving student.

So I guess I'm both arguing against fear being a reason to quit (on its own), and fear being a valid reason to quit (if other factors are considered in conjunction with it).

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skydiver604


skydiver604 wrote:
.

I went through the same thing, you gotta dig deep within yourself and overcome the fear that's holding you back. Turn your I should jump into a I must jump, as you jump more and more the paralyzing fear will dissipate and be replaced by the survival fear that will drive you do jumping safely through planning your dives, multiple gear checks before you get on the plane and multiple gear and handle checks and the ride to altitude.

just my 2 cents
OR NOT

it's a perfectly valid reason to NOT skydive. Far to many people do not take the seriousness of this sport into real account.
If someone tries skydiving and then has a REAL understanding of what the LETHAL nature of the sport can be. then they decide it's not for them, that's fine.
Not all fear should be overcome. It's a survival instinct and it's there for very good reason.



Really??? According to his post AFF went well, what's he supposed to do?? Quit?? just like that? Based on his post he passed AFF and has to get past the fear factor,,,,we'd live in a pretty sorry world if people just quit something because it's too hard, fear is the biggest factor that holds people back from their dreams, if he had said in his post that he struggled through AFF and was lacking confidence in his ability to be safe my response would have been a lot different, if people didn't dig deep and get past their fears and venture out of their comfort zone we'd still be living in the Stone Age, this just doesn't apply to skydiving, it also applies to ALL aspects of our lives from health and fitness to finance, relationships etc.

If they really want to continue they will find a way. Im not a fan of pushing people into sports or activites that can kill them.
"Just because you can, in no way means you should"
You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

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If they really want to continue they will find a way. Im not a fan of pushing people into sports or activites that can kill them.
"Just because you can, in no way means you should"


I can agree with that and also Peter has brought up some excellent points

"The greater danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it." - Michelangelo

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Squeak

Im not a fan of pushing people into sports or activites that can kill them.
"Just because you can, in no way means you should"



I'll always offer any of my friends (or honestly, strangers) help getting them into the air, but I'll never press someone who says they're not interested. Don't need it on my conscience if they did it only because I pushed and then they burned in.
cavete terrae.

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Hi again,

I do not want to hijack this thread but thank you for replies and discussion.

Sky_doggy


We all have to work through this. It's easier for some than others. Brians book might be worth a look see: http://www.transcendingfear.com/books.html


Sky_doggy, I have this book already. I was really good prepared to my AFF, book inclusive. I had to do it in that way otherwise I would never be able to jump first time.

vincenzo57

You didn't say if it got easier at all the more jumps you did in a day. In my case it definitely does, and conversely, if I leave it for a while, the butterflies build up proportionately. If you have made your mind up to do no more, I can tell you that I did the same on half of the jumps I've done, but I'm still here doing them.


Yes, the first jump on a given day was always the scariest, but it was not much better after that really. I kept saying to myself that every next jump will be easier. The anxiety was always present.

It was my instructor who kept me going. I had AFF tasks to do – so I went there and did the job.
But without this additional push my fear had taken over.

skydiver604

Really??? According to his post AFF went well, what's he supposed to do?? Quit?? just like that? Based on his post he passed AFF and has to get past the fear factor,,,,we'd live in a pretty sorry world if people just quit something because it's too hard, fear is the biggest factor that holds people back from their dreams

Yes, my AFF went well indeed. Ant this is why I am so annoyed with myself: once I left the aircraft, I was calm and focused. I remembered every word that my instructor said to me before and fallowed the jump plan.
I understand what you are saying about fear holding people back but should I get past it each time just for sake of it? Possibly, I do not know.
***
Indeed, a lot of fear can be interpreted as lack of reward for the activity, and thus be a reason to quit.
I think that this is the point.
I wanted skydiving to be fun and cool. What I did find was the fear.

However there is a huge feel good factor and feeling of achievement after each landing that I miss most.

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NWFlyer


So what? Why does it matter to you if people are into it "for life" or "for a few months"?



It doesn't matter ... it's for a conversation purposes.

And your "So what?" could be implied to 60% of the thread on this website.
Avikus - Packer and Jumper - Hate landing with the plane!

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However there is a huge feel good factor and feeling of achievement after each landing that I miss most.

That says it all right there.

"The greater danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it." - Michelangelo

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