Beginner question on my canopy size

[plom 3]

So I just completed my AFF and I'm trying to learn about canopy size.

My AFF instructor provided me with a 265 but when I type my body weight on some online calculator (172lbs ≅ 78kg) it says I can jump with a 220 and it will not stall.

What do you guys think about it; I'm really a beginner with 7 jumps right now? (I can't ask my AFF-I as I'm not jumping in the same DZ anymore)

[plom 3]

I don't even understand why I got a 265, I saw lot of posts of AFF students jump with a 240 and they weight around 82kg...

[billvon 2,738]

47 minutes ago, plom said:

So I just completed my AFF and I'm trying to learn about canopy size.

My AFF instructor provided me with a 265 but when I type my body weight on some online calculator (172lbs ≅ 78kg) it says I can jump with a 220 and it will not stall.

What do you guys think about it; I'm really a beginner with 7 jumps right now? (I can't ask my AFF-I as I'm not jumping in the same DZ anymore)

It is generally safe to go a size or two higher than recommended for that weight in your early jumps.  Going the other way (ie smaller than recommended) is not that safe.

[SCS422 24]

2 hours ago, billvon said:

it will not stall.

Do Not!  make that assumption

[wolfriverjoe 1,462]

4 hours ago, plom said:

So I just completed my AFF and I'm trying to learn about canopy size.

My AFF instructor provided me with a 265 but when I type my body weight on some online calculator (172lbs ≅ 78kg) it says I can jump with a 220 and it will not stall.

What do you guys think about it; I'm really a beginner with 7 jumps right now? (I can't ask my AFF-I as I'm not jumping in the same DZ anymore)

Ohhh boy.

First off welcome. 

This is more of a question for "Safety & Training", but it does fit here too.

Stalling (aerodynamic stall) isn't really an issue for what you're asking. While it is a function of canopy size, it's not really what you should be worrying about (intentionally stalling a canopy is a normal drill and is something you should have familiarity with by the time you get licensed).

Canopy size is more about speed and responsiveness. 

A larger 'student sized' canopy is analogous to a large family sedan. Slow, not terribly precise in handling, but predictable and easy to control, especially for beginners.
Small canopies are similar to sports cars or race cars. Very fast, very responsive, very precise handling. But potentially lethal in the hands of the inexperienced or untrained operator.

The typical metric is "wing loading". Weight of the jumper (weight is the total weight of the fully geared up jumper) in comparison to the size of the canopy. Because of the prominence of the US in the sport, weight is in pounds and size is in square feet.
The standard recommendation for newly licensed jumpers is less than one pound per square foot. Students generally go lower.
That's why, at 180 lbs (probably around 215 fully geared), you are under a canopy much larger.

Different DZs have different policies on what kind of wingloading students should have. Most allow higher (smaller canopy) as the student progresses.

Some DZs have limited student gear, so your size choice may be limited.
Where I started (a small club DZ), all the student gear was 288 Mantas. 
So, at ~150lbs, I was loading that canopy very lightly. 

The last DZ I jumped at had a much wider variety of student gear, from 265 down to 170 (the 170 was more for rental to licensed jumpers, but was used for very small students who had nearly reached licensed status).

At this point, I wouldn't worry about what size canopy they are giving you.

Work on consistent landing patterns, approaches, accuracy and flaring at the right height. 
Larger canopies are more forgiving, and it's ALWAYS better to err on the side of caution.

[chuckakers 417]

5 hours ago, plom said:

So I just completed my AFF and I'm trying to learn about canopy size.

My AFF instructor provided me with a 265 but when I type my body weight on some online calculator (172lbs ≅ 78kg) it says I can jump with a 220 and it will not stall.

What do you guys think about it; I'm really a beginner with 7 jumps right now? (I can't ask my AFF-I as I'm not jumping in the same DZ anymore)

Speak to your current instructors about it. There are too many variables to analyze your situation on a forum.

[wmw999 2,314]

Just something to consider: in the case of a malfunction, or a less-than-perfect landing, no one ever wishes they had less canopy above them. At 120 lbs, I put several hundred jumps on a canopy of 220 sq ft (it was the olden days).

Wendy P.

[riggerrob 599]

Summarizing wolfriverjoe’s post number 5: the decision can be condensed to one number: wing-loading. Students, BASE jumpers and precision landing competitors use wing-loadings around 0.7 pounds per square foot. Large, docile canopies provide wide margins of error for poorly timed flares, landing in tall grass, etc. You will walk away from poorly-timed landings on docile canopies.

Remember that suspended weight includes your parachutes, cloths, helmet, etc. so add another 25 pounds to your naked weight.

After doing a couple dozen jumps on lightly-loaded student canopies, most people buy a first main canopy that they load around 1 pound per square foot. The decision to down-size is best made after discussions with local instructors.

At the extreme end of the scale, some highly-experienced canopy pilots load their pond-swooping canopies at 4 pounds per square foot. Keep in mind that even a tiny miss-calculation can kill you at those wing-loadings.

For a more detailed explanation, look at Poynter’s manual volume 2 circa 1990. He quoted an article - entitled “Wing-Loading” that I wrote for SKYDIVING Magazine.

Edited August 6 by riggerrob
Spelling

[plom 3]

Thanks everyone, I understand better now

[SCS422 24]

Take a Canopy course at your earliest convenience!

[wolfriverjoe 1,462]

21 hours ago, riggerrob said:

...Remember that suspended weight includes your parachutes, cloths, helmet, etc. so add another 25 pounds to your naked weight...

For student gear, with large main & reserve canopies, I've found it closer to 35 lbs.

It's never a bad idea to verify with a scale. Every DZ I've ever been to has a scale at manifest.

[mark 107]

22 hours ago, riggerrob said:

For a more detailed explanation, look at Poynter’s manual volume 2 circa 1990. He quoted an article - entitled “Wing-Loading” that I wrote for SKYDIVING Magazine.

Here's what Poynter says in Volume 2, page 332:

"A tiny jumper under a huge student canopy may have a wing loading of 0.3 lbs/sq ft, while an experienced jumper might prefer a relatively smaller canopy around 1.1 lbs/sq ft.  The tiny jumper will float with little forward speed or descent rate.  The experienced jumper will be zipping all over the sky.  Most jumpers should not exceed a wing loading of 1.0.

"If the canopy is to be used regularly at higher elevations or where the humidity is high, design a larger canopy.  Sport jumpers who like a wing loading of 0.7 in Florida may prefer 0.5 in Colorado."

[riggerrob 599]

1 hour ago, mark said:

Here's what Poynter says in Volume 2, page 332:

"A tiny jumper under a huge student canopy may have a wing loading of 0.3 lbs/sq ft, while an experienced jumper might prefer a relatively smaller canopy around 1.1 lbs/sq ft.  The tiny jumper will float with little forward speed or descent rate.  The experienced jumper will be zipping all over the sky.  Most jumpers should not exceed a wing loading of 1.0.

"If the canopy is to be used regularly at higher elevations or where the humidity is high, design a larger canopy.  Sport jumpers who like a wing loading of 0.7 in Florida may prefer 0.5 in Colorado."

Yes.

... and I wrote that back when F-111 canopies were the norm.

More recent (since 1990) zero-porosity fabric allows you to load canopies heavier, but heavier wing-loadings also require more skill to land softly.

[plom 3]

My instructor now autorized me to fly a 240 so I'm happy. I doesn't change a lot (still can feel a little bit of difference) but I've been told I would be able to downsize after 15 more jumps 

[skyderrill66 15]

You are a fatality waiting to happen. You are a student and you are questioning your instructor. We will be reading about your demise.

[wmw999 2,314]

3 hours ago, skyderrill66 said:

You are a fatality waiting to happen. You are a student and you are questioning your instructor. We will be reading about your demise.

Sorry, it’s OK to question your instructors, because that’s better than going ahead and doing something stupid because you thought you knew better.

Instructors generally have the right answer for that student, but some students don’t feel comfortable asking questions.

Yeah, he might be heading for a fall, but this time he got solid advice

Wendy P. 

[dudeman17 311]

On 8/17/2024 at 2:17 AM, plom said:

I've been told I would be able to downsize after 15 more jumps.

It's not just the number of jumps, it's how you perform on them and where your skill set is when you complete them. Don't be in a hurry.

 

2 hours ago, wmw999 said:

it’s OK to question your instructors, because...  Instructors generally have the right answer for that student

Yes, but that's better done live at the dz with instructors who are familiar with the student. Hopefully the OP has or will do that as well.

 

2 hours ago, wmw999 said:

that’s better than going ahead and doing something stupid because you thought you knew better...  [or]  don’t feel comfortable asking questions.

For such people, bowling comes to mind.

[wmw999 2,314]

8 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

For such people, bowling comes to mind.

Yeah, but they’re much more likely to try skydiving. I’m not going to say we’re at the peak of safety, we’re not. But there are fewer incidents per 100,000 jumps consistently over the last 5-10 years than at any time in the past. Not that there isn’t room for improvement, but it’s heading in a decent direction.

And, frankly, with the YouTube popularity of wingsuit BASE, a number of our folks with too much confidence are heading there instead of swooping. Not that it’s a good thing, but that it’s no longer mostly a skydiving thing  

Wendy P. 

[wolfriverjoe 1,462]

16 hours ago, skyderrill66 said:

You are a fatality waiting to happen. You are a student and you are questioning your instructor. We will be reading about your demise.

I'm not seeing that.

I'm not seeing 'Maddd Skilzzzz' here, just a student asking a question that he, apparently, isn't close enough to his instructors to ask them.

And going from a 265 to a 240 isn't a huge step down.
Not when he's going from 0.77:1 to 0.85:1.

On 8/17/2024 at 4:17 AM, plom said:

My instructor now authorized me to fly a 240 so I'm happy. I doesn't change a lot (still can feel a little bit of difference) but I've been told I would be able to downsize after 15 more jumps 

So, why do you want to downsize?

There are good reasons, and 'not so good' reasons.
There are good ways to do it, and 'not so good ways'. 

Many times, students or novices come on here trying to find justification and support for downsizing for the wrong reasons and much, much faster than they should.
So the 'default' answer is 'ask your instructors and experienced jumpers who know you and your skills'.

You are clearly working with your instructors, not trying to 'go behind their backs'.

And you're not trying to go too small too fast, as far as I can tell.
But I don't know you. I don't know how well you fly.

So any advice I give is VERY generic.
And fairly conservative.

[BIGUN 1,230]

On 8/17/2024 at 4:17 AM, plom said:

My instructor now autorized me to fly a 240 so I'm happy. I doesn't change a lot (still can feel a little bit of difference) but I've been told I would be able to downsize after 15 more jumps 

During this period of 15 jumps to downsize; I would suggest you work with an Instructor or Coach to work through the Downsizing Checklist.

 

 

[riggerrob 599]

Good point dear Wolfriverjoe,

During one rigger course, I was feeling mischievous, so assigned a "gear selection exercise" that included a student whose objective was to do wingsuit BASE jumps. Most rigger candidates recommended a plan to down-size, but the brightest student suggested buying a large 7-cell loaded at 0.7 pounds per square foot.

During another rigger course, I assigned s similar "gear selection exercise" and one (British) rigger candidate was OUTRAGED that I would mention the word "BASE" during a CSPA course.

Hah!

Hah!

Bottom line, seriously consider WHY you want to down-size. Down-sizing may not be in the best interests of a student who plans to do BASE, precision landing competition or exhibition jumps into tight stadiums.

[plom 3]

Hi all, I just want to downsize to have smoother opening and to have less weight on my shoulders when running to the plane. I don't plan to do wingsuit, swooping or BASE jumping, I'm only a student and these things look so much dangerous to me.

My only dream would be to do a high altitude jump but it has nothing to do with the canopy and it's still very a distant dream.

Anyway, I'm now jumping in the same DZ where I did my AFF until I'm not a student anymore as it was advised by my instructor (even though it's far from where I live meaning less jumps per months) and I work all these downsizing stuff closely with my instructor.