Fatality - Skydive Chicago - 1 August 2013

[DrDom 0]

Bertt

When people think they can fix a problem, they'll keep trying to fix it until events prove them wrong. Students are given pretty clear guidelines about when to quit trying to fix a problem and get the reserve out. Whether from fear in some cases or overconfidence in others, sometimes experienced skydivers don't follow these guidelines.

Yeah, this is where "near misses" are useful. That's where the real data comes from. Fatalities often teach us little unless the cause is obvious. most of the time its just speculation. Tragic speculation.

You are not the contents of your wallet.

[obelixtim 100]

popsjumper

Please don't let the jerks run you off. You have valuable contributions to make in spite of the bozos over there.

By deleting my reply to this post the mods have proven my point completely.

Reasonable debate?.

Forget it.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[chemist 0]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCZPuc-c_6g

It looks like this guy almost suffered the same fate as the girl that died on thursday.

He can't be more than 100 feet above the ground when his reserve deployed, one more second and he would have been dead. He struggles too long before main cutaway, then for some reason he does not pull the reserve until like 100 ft above the ground. No one knows why it took so long for him to pull reserve but this is a valuable video for instructional purposes.

PULL PULL PULL! I'd rather hit the ground at 10 mph unstable than 150mph unstable!

[Boomerdog 0]

Doc,
My apologies to you and all if I misled you and anyone else by the questions posed to me post jump. They were by no means critical and posed to me by my principal instructor who is also the DZO and who is all-stars in my book. What was ironic was that he had a cutaway the day before. While I'm licensed now, I still seek him out for feedback and he's nothing but encouraging. What I told him that having been through a canopy course (where riser flight was discussed and had to be demonstrated) having read the SIM on canopy control several times and practiced riser turns during AFF training, I was confident of landing the canopy and I took him step by step through the my thinking during the emergency. After which, he was OK with it. A good de-brief after a successful recovery form a malfunction burns into the old noodle for future reference. Blue Skies

[DrDom 0]

I was speaking in a more general manner not so much to your case :)

You are not the contents of your wallet.

[popsjumper 2]

Some excellent good stuff there...thanks!
I'm always heartened when a young jumper can put up really good info.

Kudos to your AFFI guru. He told you good and handled it wonderfully, professionally.

I have a question:
- Heading towards the barn and being concerned that you might not make it, tell us why you elected to go over it instead of around it?

I do have a couple of other things things...

Quote

7). Newly licensed jumpers (like me) should get into a canopy course ASAP as well as read the SIM on canopy control. The ability to know how and exploit the use of rear risers in an emergency is imperative. Very glad I took the canopy course!

- Just to emphasize for the youngsters....rear riser control should be learned before A-license.

- WARNING: Do not attempt this until you get instruction from your best Instructor.
...not just how to turn and flare with rear risers but you'll need to discover rear-riser stall point on every canopy you jump so that you can avoid stalling on landing.

Quote

6). Stay "ahead of the curve." Where you "are at" in the present is irrelevant. You've made that waypoint and are OK, think about the next two landing approach points ahead of you and once there, the next two and then the next two until you are on the ground.

This is perfect. Just simply the way to do it.
The key to success is small steps.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[grue 1]

popsjumper

- Just to emphasize for the youngsters....rear riser control should be learned before A-license.

- WARNING: Do not attempt this until you get instruction from your best Instructor.
...not just how to turn and flare with rear risers but you'll need to discover rear-riser stall point on every canopy you jump so that you can avoid stalling on landing.

Gonna throw this out there: rear riser knowledge saved me from a cutaway years ago. Had practiced rear riser landings at altitude a few times but not actually done one. One jump I had a brake line snap on opening. Said "hey, now's my chance", practiced a little more, and put it down in my normal spot for a smooth stand up landing. Fixed the brake line and… blew up the whole fucking canopy 5 jumps or so later

cavete terrae.

[popsjumper 2]

grue

Fixed the brake line and… blew up the whole fucking canopy 5 jumps or so later

I don't care who ya' are. THAT was funny.


Some of us do rear riser landings for fun, yep.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[ChrisD 0]

ufk22

Another long, rambling diatribe.
Let's initiate a discussion in search of a problem.
I know you've suggested a multi-day FJC in the past and now you're suggesting we don't train people to properly initiate EP's at proper altitude.

Before we even consider changing everything we teach on EP's, does anyone know how many successful cutaways/ reserve deployments at proper altitude were made last year???
100?
1000?
Statistically, it should be between 500 and 1000.
And how many low cutaway/low-no reserve deployments?
2
What does this mean?
Over 99% success rate, but because of failures in somewhere between .4% and .2% we need to rethink everything we do and teach???
Nothing wrong with doing everything we can to avoid all fatalities, but let's keep things in perspective. Any type of training that achieves this high a success rate is worth keeping.
Perhaps if you filled out your profile you might have at least a little bit of credibility.

Why even take the time to write anything at all?

Perhaps we should just leave everything to the manufacturer's?

You have a very valid point, perhaps we should be grateful and leave things alone? I have often stated that by embracing the risks and acknowledging that a few are going to get wacked every year regardless of what we do,...well that's the way it is.

But on the other hand this really did matter to a few....


I am proposing that once again by accepting the view that individuals, everyone, faces the possibility of not being able to be altitude aware. It just isn't physically possible. And other individuals keep coming back with the same shit since the 70s' and that is that this issue, and a few more are qualities of the individual...how experienced they are, how recent that experience is, the type of malfunction, or this person was known for this or that, etc, etc,...


Get this point thru your head and that is any ones brain can and will lock up, you will be unable to perform as you think you can! You will not be altitude aware when you need to be.

Thinking like this, everyone, will bring you to where you need to be as compared with holding the delusional attitude that it won't happen to me. Too many people hold this attitude that they are invincible for a number of reasons.

If you adopt the attitude that humans have limitations, then the training will change in response to this.

I can not stress this enough, if your reading this then you are a physical human with limitations. Everyone is susceptible to not performing when you have to....and yes this is a scary thought for most to acknowledge. Which is why we have so many people running around thinking they are safe because of this or that...

We can either work towards one hundred percent or we can all cop out and just cut our losses?

This issue and how we approach it has remained relatively constant, the same arguments, the same response, the same teaching, the same arguments,...and the same results, for the last forty years.

It's time for a new approach that doesn't include blaming the victim as the root cause. Otherwise you are absolutely correct in that just accept how good things are and leave it at that.
C

And ya if this, the way we need to teach needs to change, or the present methods can benefit from being modified, so what? You don't have the time?

On another note:

Mike M. in this weeks other fatal proposes that the pilots of America and the skydivers everywhere are being subject to DZO and fuel pressures to dump skydivers out of aircraft before the aircraft is configured to a configuration as safe as it can possibly be. He takes the view point that the pilots and us shouldn't take it. He is correct and I agree wholeheartedly.


On the other hand what if the skydivers on that load realized they did in fact have a beginner on that load?

On the other hand what if every time the situation that Mike points out existed the skydivers refused to exit the aircraft and demanded their money back?

Two points above:

In one case our system may be flawed in the sense that sometimes their isn't a lot of brotherly love once someone is cleared to self solo, never mind the idea of pilot error, the poor kid jumped up because everyone else does it, ya they might have 1000 jumps and are able to get away with it, but on the other hand how much time do we officially spend with students going over varying aircraft? ZERO, that's how much time we do this....How about a voluntary card checking off that I have received training and briefing on various aircraft, at some point in their jumping life? For you pilots this might be something similar to the tail wheel checkoff? Would something as simple as this be too much to ask?


How about the other situation, not to pick bones with MM but to illustrate if our skydiving public, each and every jumper knew an unsafe condition and didn't accept it...would things change? Is something like this too much to ask?

Continuing education is woefully lacking....

You started off by saying here goes another long winded whatever and your right,...but on the other hand 2 people are dead this week...decide if some of your valuable time is worth doing something to save next years or next weeks similar fatalities, or do nothing, it's your choice. I know that you do in fact care, you care very much as does everyone, but doing something involves effort and risk and this is what it is going to take. And this is not going to take place if every one waits for someone else to start.

Yes what we have is worth keeping. I'm not suggesting everything goes, but we do need to analyze where we can do better and start doing it.

And again it's the message not the messenger.

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[Boomerdog 0]

With respect to the barn. It was a strange mix of:
1) The wind was taking me there.
2) Fatigue. Electing to ride the risers down is the "mother of all workouts."
3) Altitude

The wind plus the fatigue would not allow additional turning. As soon as I saw the barn in my track and little alternative, I checked the altitude on my digital altimeter. I was at 270' AGL...not good altitude for radical turns. I did a quick eyeball of the projected descent track over the barn and was confident I would clear it and I did clear it but not by much. The other dilemma to consider is canopy inflation. Had I accomplished any more turns, the canopy once righted would take another 10 seconds to get back to full inflation and I was coming in hot already. I needed as much lift possible to minimize the impact of the landing. You make the decision and you live with it up or down. That day, I put one in the "up" column.

[normiss 622]

Yessiree we certainly do.

I think we should too.

[DocPop 1]

normiss

Yessiree we certainly do.

I think we should too.

WRT rear riser landings - so do I.

I won't downsize until I can land without using my toggles (but still holding them, of course). It's not in itself an OK to downsize but it indicates a level of comfort/control with your wing.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[DcloudZ 0]

Brian Germain just recently created a topic in the Swooping and Canopy Control forum holding a discussion on how to recover from spinning line-twists...

"Better to have a short life that is full of what you like doing than a long life spent in a miserable way." -Alan Watts

[Longbow1415 0]

Altitude awareness or rather the lack of it is something than can get anyone. I have always considered myself to be a very altitude aware skydiver. I have had a few chops and always (bar one) got off with good height. Then earlier this year some bad twists had me kicking all the way till I cleared them at 1500 feet (I pulled at 3,200 ish). I will be honest I didn't once check my alti, the canopy was stable not diving though it felt she could go at any moment. I did look at my reserve handles and was happy I could get them in an instant, but 1500 feet and no RSL was a wake up call for me, that height was lost so damn fast. Next time I am checking alti all the time and off it by 2k. Chopping low kills folks.

[ufk22 32]

Quote

So this being the case, we should just expect failure?

ChrisD

Get this point thru your head and that is any ones brain can and will lock up, you will be unable to perform as you think you can! You will not be altitude aware when you need to be.

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[erdnarob 1]

IMO, the best way to prepare a person for cutaway when needed, is to train him/her on a suspended harness with an actual fall on a mattress or something equivalent. The benefit of this exercice is that the jumper knows (and remembers) the feeling of getting suddenly free from the main risers, notices the force required to pull the ripcord and knows that the three ring system works easily. Moreover he is mentally prepared to do it without hesitation. Practice makes perfect. Astronauts are trained for months on the ground or swimming pool to rehearse what they will do in the space.
I have developed a way to use any owner's rig to do such a training without having to pop the reserve. I have such a set up in my basement wich costs only few bucks. One needs : An old pair of risers, a spare ripcord, disconnecting the 3 rings and fold up the main risers below the riser protectors. The rip cord is removed from its pocket and taped under the main lift web. The spare ripcord is placed in the pockect with cable hanging down. Some masking tape around the handle and MLW simulates the extraction force. You can wrap many turns of masking tape until the required force is obtained. I recommend all the jumpers to do this exercice at the begining of the jumping season, every year.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[ChrisD 0]

ufk22

Quote

So this being the case, we should just expect failure?***

Get this point thru your head and that is any ones brain can and will lock up, you will be unable to perform as you think you can! You will not be altitude aware when you need to be.

Part of this in a sense is that "expecting failure" will create a different mindset than just turning a blind eye! This realization will change how we think about some of the things we do and this will bring about the necessary change in education and practice.

The focus is upon the system rather than the individual that has the unfortunate mal.


Another way to look at this is too compare the amount of time we actually spend practicing stuff that can help us in this situation. Many, (most) all of us spend a few moments in a hanging harness (in fact my estimates, based upon others comments, is that only 40 percent of skydivers participate in safety day.)

Anyways we spend less than one percent of our skydiving time practicing our EP's. Touching your handles, although great as an attempt, doesn't compare if we were to start practicing hanging harness training say at least once a month and add the spin or other distractors to the training....

many schools don't even use a hanging harness, they just put on a container and then just touch themselves... This is an example of a system failure, a systemic issue that we can do better with.

The point is there are things we can do to mitigate this type of incident that takes more than a few of us each year.

If the global mind set was one that acknowledged our inability to cope with this type of problem as compared with making comments about this or that person, yes then "accepting failure" will be a good thing.

C

Don't confuse this with fighting to the last moment, and also considering how our brain works don't have this conversation just before your jump.

We really do a great disservice to all jumpers considering the amount of time spent practicing our EP's as compared with other activities...

And there are reasons for this! Most of us don't want to confront our mortality as compared with having fun. So our brains stop thinking, literally....



As Andre points out (Thanks Andre

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[ChrisD 0]

The other tread has turned into a mess, I can see how the mods want to police such activity

On the other hand before it turned into a popularity contest full of "individual" stories...

It can and does illustrate how strongly we want to find and blame the individual...

One person posted this:

"One might feel a little pressure to avoid chopping a friend's canopy until one has done everything possible to avoid that. "

And the well meaning response was a personal attack, that should be removed,...

On the other hand it does illustrate the system view of how we place and attribute blame upon others...

The response:

"....but I have to say this one appears to be an attempt at sarcasm that is a complete FAIL..."

This is how the system fails us all.

No one is clairevouant enough to know what another is thinking. And suggestions as to the mindset of an individual at the time of any incident is fair game and in fact promotes discussion. The response only promotes STFU. This does nothing. It does illustrate social pressure to conform and toe the line. This is a huge factor, social pressure, and is in fact killing us because it does nothing to increase our skill, which is the goal.

Words such as behaviors like: Hardwired, or muscle memory, or describing anothers reactions... are perpetuating a stereotype. Again all factors belonging to the individual.

There is no such thing as muscle memory, and I feel sorry for anyone that honestly believes that the AFF instruction process instills some kind of permanent change. This type of delusional thinking is in fact perpetuating the stereotype and is the reason we are all in this situation in the first place.

If you don't practice your skills, you loose them. It's this simple. And practicing EP's once, or learning them once and then your all set, is the stereotype that many of you want to perpetuate!

"In other words, the decedents had their EP decision making process pretty hardwired from their other activities, regardless of what their "AFF" instructors did or did not tell them"

This simply isn't true.

They locked up, we all can, their experience, their abilities, knowledge, experience, all of these other individual factors...

don't mean shit.

C

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[Backintothesky 0]

sundevil777

In my opinion, there is a problem with fear. The fear of cutting away (or just pulling reserve) and having to actually count on the reserve working. It should not be surprising, fear is natural and of course there is a chance the reserve won't work.

How to counter this natural fear? I think this fear that can make jumpers of any level of experience take too much time/altitude trying to fix a mal must be acknowledged. This fear must be discussed in the open so that when facing the need to chop, a person remembers how the fear of implementing emergency procedures will kill them - that they need to do it now so they will not die. Usually, there is actually no need to look at an altimeter to confirm the need to react.

If jumpers come to understand the natural tendency to not want to have to use emergency procedures, understand how that can kill, then it is more likely that an individual will not fall prey to the fear that will kill. A MARD or RSL will not fix this.

I think this is a good point and not one ever discussed.

I remember once my canopy suddenly diving to the left quite violently upon opening and I remember the sudden terror that hit me - I distinctly remember thinking "oh shit I don't want to have to cutaway".

It was a temporary problem with the canopy and it fixed itself within a second but the jolt of fear was very intense.

Ultimately I was ready to cutaway but there was intense fear of doing so and some noticeable hesitation.

Once you've already got something over your head is it sometimes tempting to try and fix it rather than "risking" a malfunction on your last chance canopy? How many people hesitate to cutaway a bag lock? Probably none, but plenty hesitate to cutaway a line over or otherwise "slow" malfunction...

[popsjumper 2]

Bertt

It's not always fear of cutting away. Sometimes the problem is that the person thinks they can handle the situation. Line twist; I can kick out of that. Line over; Maybe if I pull on the toggles a few times I can clear it. Grease fire in the kitchen ; I don't need the fire department, I'll throw some baking powder on the skillet and smother the fire.
When people think they can fix a problem, they'll keep trying to fix it until events prove them wrong. Students are given pretty clear guidelines about when to quit trying to fix a problem and get the reserve out. Whether from fear in some cases or overconfidence in others, sometimes experienced skydivers don't follow these guidelines.

I believe that is the most common for experienced people....
"...just a couple more seconds....just a couple more....."

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[chemist 0]

erdnarob

IMO, the best way to prepare a person for cutaway when needed, is to train him/her on a suspended harness with an actual fall on a mattress or something equivalent. The benefit of this exercice is that the jumper knows (and remembers) the feeling of getting suddenly free from the main risers, notices the force required to pull the ripcord and knows that the three ring system works easily. Moreover he is mentally prepared to do it without hesitation. Practice makes perfect. Astronauts are trained for months on the ground or swimming pool to rehearse what they will do in the space.
I have developed a way to use any owner's rig to do such a training without having to pop the reserve. I have such a set up in my basement wich costs only few bucks. One needs : An old pair of risers, a spare ripcord, disconnecting the 3 rings and fold up the main risers below the riser protectors. The rip cord is removed from its pocket and taped under the main lift web. The spare ripcord is placed in the pockect with cable hanging down. Some masking tape around the handle and MLW simulates the extraction force. You can wrap many turns of masking tape until the required force is obtained. I recommend all the jumpers to do this exercice at the begining of the jumping season, every year.

I don't think those harnesses do anything to prevent the feared cutaway. I've been in one, seriously how hard is it to pull a red handle? Pretty easy.

As someone pointed out it's all psychological, people are scared that the reserve will come out tangled if they are unstable, risking a malfunction with 'last chance' canopy, and trying one more second and then one more second to fix a 'slow' malfunction.

These are all psychological things, and has nothing to do with not being able to physically pull on a red handle. Now, you say those hanging harnesses can help with the psychological fear of pulling? Maybe, it's not a bad idea to try it once but I highly doubt it does anyone any good. You're safe on the ground, it's impossible to recreate the fear of a real emergency situation. And it's in that moment of fear that you have to act.

[BigMark 1]

When your harness shifts from loaded to unloaded and your reserve handle moves south from armpit to middle chest and seconds matter your one experience in a hanging harness may save your life. I think a bunch of people have spent the last seconds of their lives pulling on webbing where the handle was before the cutaway.

[billvon 2,396]

>seriously how hard is it to pull a red handle?

Hard enough that a few people every year can't do it to save their life. I've known the best in the business be unable to do something that seems so simple here on the ground.

[Backintothesky 0]

billvon

>seriously how hard is it to pull a red handle?

Hard enough that a few people every year can't do it to save their life. I've known the best in the business be unable to do something that seems so simple here on the ground.

Ultimately there is no real way to prepare people for it. Even deliberate cutaways have a third canopy as backup. The real thing is do or die or do and still die.

Perhaps more people should become more familiar with the reserve packing system and learn all the measures in place to prevent the reserve malfunctioning. Maybe even watch their reserve being repacked.

[peek 20]

billvon

>seriously how hard is it to pull a red handle?

Hard enough that a few people every year can't do it to save their life. I've known the best in the business be unable to do something that seems so simple here on the ground.

Bill, do you have any info on how tight some of these people had their leg straps, and perhaps what rig they were jumping?

I have noticed a huge difference among skydivers as to how tight they like their rig. I personally like my leg straps very tight, and I have very little shift in the position of my handles from freefall to under canopy, at least with rigs custom made for me.

On the other hand, when I use a Sigma tandem rig, make the main lift web adjustment short, and make the leg straps tight, the handles are considerably higher under canopy. It seems to be the nature of the rig.