More Sacrifices to the First Amendment

[wolfriverjoe 1,460]

11 hours ago, billvon said:

Who said anything about outlawing porn?  Not me.  Not Bigun.

Not you.
Bigun.
While he didn't explicitly state he'd outlaw porn, he made it pretty clear he was in favor of censoring it.

On 7/19/2024 at 12:12 PM, billvon said:

If you are against censorship but approve of banning books you don't like - you are for censorship.

 

On 7/19/2024 at 3:29 PM, BIGUN said:

Not sure which camp you'd put me in; teaching sex education in class is one thing. Pornography is another.  

 

On 7/19/2024 at 3:48 PM, BIGUN said:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pornography

Science vs. Social

Reproduction vs. Pornhub/OnlyFans type materiel in visual or written form.  

 

[wmw999 2,311]

To me there's a big difference between controlling (which is what censoring is) and forbidding porn. I once did a project on porn in college (the professor was a real horndog, and I knew I was guaranteeing a reasonable grade with minimal effort). The two comic books I picked up were explicit enough that I, at 20, was OK, but I sure wouldn't have wanted my son to see something like that before he was at least late in high school without my being able to discuss it with him.

So yeah, I, too, think there are books that don't belong in an elementary school library. Language (like being in Latin) is a good reason, and frank pornography is another. A reference to the existence of material that parents don't consider to be appropriate is fine -- that's exactly what does cause questions (hopefully of the parents). So a kid learning from Johnny that his older brother has magazines under the mattress, or learning in a "growing up in a bad family" book that parents sometimes do bad things, is OK. Just as learning that there are other kids out there who have some of the same feelings matters, whether it's feeling like something is wrong in their body, or just feeling like nobody understands them.

Wendy P.

[JerryBaumchen 1,261]

5 hours ago, wmw999 said:

To me there's a big difference between controlling (which is what censoring is) and forbidding porn. I once did a project on porn in college (the professor was a real horndog, and I knew I was guaranteeing a reasonable grade with minimal effort). The two comic books I picked up were explicit enough that I, at 20, was OK, but I sure wouldn't have wanted my son to see something like that before he was at least late in high school without my being able to discuss it with him.

So yeah, I, too, think there are books that don't belong in an elementary school library. Language (like being in Latin) is a good reason, and frank pornography is another. A reference to the existence of material that parents don't consider to be appropriate is fine -- that's exactly what does cause questions (hopefully of the parents). So a kid learning from Johnny that his older brother has magazines under the mattress, or learning in a "growing up in a bad family" book that parents sometimes do bad things, is OK. Just as learning that there are other kids out there who have some of the same feelings matters, whether it's feeling like something is wrong in their body, or just feeling like nobody understands them.

Wendy P.

Hi Wendy,

Re:  So a kid learning from Johnny that his older brother has magazines under the mattress

In the 8th grade, this one kid had an older brother.  The brother somehow had a photo these two guys & two gals on a couch 'having some fun.'

I will never forget that photo.

Jerry Baumchen

[JoeWeber 2,561]

1 hour ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Wendy,

Re:  So a kid learning from Johnny that his older brother has magazines under the mattress

In the 8th grade, this one kid had an older brother.  The brother somehow had a photo these two guys & two gals on a couch 'having some fun.'

I will never forget that photo.

Jerry Baumchen

How is that not sex education?

[wolfriverjoe 1,460]

11 hours ago, wmw999 said:

...So yeah, I, too, think there are books that don't belong in an elementary school library. Language (like being in Latin) is a good reason, and frank pornography is another. A reference to the existence of material that parents don't consider to be appropriate is fine -- that's exactly what does cause questions (hopefully of the parents). So a kid learning from Johnny that his older brother has magazines under the mattress, or learning in a "growing up in a bad family" book that parents sometimes do bad things, is OK. Just as learning that there are other kids out there who have some of the same feelings matters, whether it's feeling like something is wrong in their body, or just feeling like nobody understands them.

Wendy P.

I have zero problems with explicit porn not being available to kids (not that anything will ever completely stop it).

But comprehensive sex ed should cover more than just 'reproduction'. 

The fact that different people have different feelings about things (whether one likes boys or girls for example), and that feeling differently from others doesn't make one 'bad' or 'immoral'. 

The fact that sexual activity feels REALLY good, and that giving in to those good feelings has consequences. 
And that some people will lie and manipulate, and disregard those potential consequences in order to feel those feelings.
That some people will do or pay just about anything to experience it.
And that other people can and will exploit people for, or over it.

All that and more should be taught.

In a 'perfect world', the family (parents) would be the ones to teach that.
But, as we are well aware, not all parents are willing or able (or have the accurate knowledge themselves) to do that.

[wmw999 2,311]

I'm completely with you. When I was in eighth grade (Ohio, 1960's), the girls' PE teacher was also the health teacher. during the sex education part, they taught facts (I don't remember how many, because my mother had covered the topic years before). But the most notable part was the day that she split the class into girls and boys, and we met in different rooms; the girls with her, and the boys with one of the male PE teachers. She said this was the day to ask all the questions that were too hard to ask with the boys/girls in the class. She also let us just write them down so that she could answer them anonymously. It was, frankly, brilliant.

No, I don't know if she censored any of the questions; I, like nearly every other kid, was really only interested in the question that I had.

Wendy P.

[JoeWeber 2,561]

Just now, wmw999 said:

I'm completely with you. When I was in eighth grade (Ohio, 1960's), the girls' PE teacher was also the health teacher. during the sex education part, they taught facts (I don't remember how many, because my mother had covered the topic years before). But the most notable part was the day that she split the class into girls and boys, and we met in different rooms; the girls with her, and the boys with one of the male PE teachers. She said this was the day to ask all the questions that were too hard to ask with the boys/girls in the class. She also let us just write them down so that she could answer them anonymously. It was, frankly, brilliant.

No, I don't know if she censored any of the questions; I, like nearly every other kid, was really only interested in the question that I had.

Wendy P.

Aw, come on Boss, you do the lead up and then nada. Do tell, what was your question?

[kallend 1,822]

We had no sex ed at my school.  I learned about sex when I was 7,  from my cousins Felicity. who was 10, and Jennifer, 9.  I found it very interesting.

[JoeWeber 2,561]

2 hours ago, kallend said:

We had no sex ed at my school.  I learned about sex when I was 7,  from my cousins Felicity. who was 10, and Jennifer, 9.  I found it very interesting.

So that was your first Double First?

[BIGUN 1,230]

7 hours ago, wolfriverjoe said:

In a 'perfect world', the family (parents) would be the ones to teach that.

Then teach the parents what to teach. They are the child's first teacher. You're assuming "the state" knows better for all parents. 

7 hours ago, wolfriverjoe said:

not all parents are willing or able (or have the accurate knowledge themselves) to do that.

How do you think they became parents.

Edited July 23 by BIGUN

[billeisele 130]

In our school district they teach biology sex in 7th grade. They get the reproductive organs stuff, how babies are made and how contraception prevention works. Plenty of fights about what books shouldn't be allowed at certain grade levels. 

One female teacher shared, "I feel like an idiot teaching this stuff, they know more than I do."

Of note, when I returned to the US in 1981 from living in Galapagos, I did a surprise visit at the end of the day to a rural school where my girlfriend was teaching 3rd grade. Will never forget the boy sitting in the front row corner seat (he had already been held back a year) saying; Miss Mathis, is that who you stay with?!? 

50 years ago kids were already in broken homes and didn't know both parents. Not good.

[wmw999 2,311]

23 minutes ago, billeisele said:

50 years ago kids were already in broken homes and didn't know both parents. Not good.

My grandmother's first husband left her in 1921 or so. She had to leave her kids (my aunt and uncle) with a lady while she went to work to support them as a newspaper reporter. They never heard from her first husband again, and when my cousins tried to contact their birth grandfather he refused contact.

It's happened all along. It's become more acceptable, and it's not as often a stain on the woman (without being a stain on the man).

And while some of the kids knew more than the teacher about some sexual things, they didn't all, and I'll bet she gave them context, and actual information, rather than 7th-grade BMOC posturing. I'd call that a win.

Wendy P.

[wolfriverjoe 1,460]

3 hours ago, BIGUN said:

Then teach the parents what to teach. They are the child's first teacher. You're assuming "the state" knows better for all parents. 

 

How do you think they became parents.

No I am not assuming that.

I'm assuming that the teacher knows more than some of the parents and is a LOT BETTER at teaching that material than many of them.

And 'how did they become parents in the first place'?

By not fully understanding the consequences of sexual activity.

By believing stupid crap like 'you can't get pregnant the first time you do it'.

By not being taught they are in charge of their own body and they can say "NO" to anyone at any time.

You know, by not being taught properly.

[BIGUN 1,230]

42 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

By not fully understanding the consequences of sexual activity.

By believing stupid crap like 'you can't get pregnant the first time you do it'.

By not being taught they are in charge of their own body and they can say "NO" to anyone at any time.

Ahh, so you do know the difference between sex education and porn. 

[wolfriverjoe 1,460]

3 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Ahh, so you do know the difference between sex education and porn. 

Yes. I do.

I just don't think either should be censored (porn restricted for juveniles, but not adults).

 

[kallend 1,822]

1 hour ago, wolfriverjoe said:

No I am not assuming that.

I'm assuming that the teacher knows more than some of the parents and is a LOT BETTER at teaching that material than many of them.

And 'how did they become parents in the first place'?

By not fully understanding the consequences of sexual activity.

By believing stupid crap like 'you can't get pregnant the first time you do it'.

By not being taught they are in charge of their own body and they can say "NO" to anyone at any time.

You know, by not being taught properly.

Anyone remember this guy?

https://www.politico.com/story/2012/08/akin-legitimate-rape-victims-dont-get-pregnant-079864

[ryoder 1,546]

5 minutes ago, kallend said:

Anyone remember this guy?

https://www.politico.com/story/2012/08/akin-legitimate-rape-victims-dont-get-pregnant-079864

Perhaps he was just speaking from his own personal experience?

[JoeWeber 2,561]

5 hours ago, BIGUN said:

How do you think they became parents.

By not understanding reproductive health, in many cases.

[BIGUN 1,230]

1 hour ago, wolfriverjoe said:

porn restricted for juveniles, but not adults

And there you have it.

[billvon 2,723]

7 hours ago, BIGUN said:

How do you think they became parents.

Well, to be fair, many people become parents because they DON'T understand how all that stuff works, and just do what comes naturally.  "But we never thought we could get PREGNANT!  We only did it once!"

[billvon 2,723]

5 hours ago, billeisele said:

In our school district they teach biology sex in 7th grade. They get the reproductive organs stuff, how babies are made and how contraception prevention works. Plenty of fights about what books shouldn't be allowed at certain grade levels.

Ours starts in 5th grade biology and they gradually introduce more stuff every year.

Quote

One female teacher shared, "I feel like an idiot teaching this stuff, they know more than I do."

Some do, some don't.  Which is why it's important to teach it.

[SkyDekker 1,288]

10 hours ago, BIGUN said:

Then teach the parents what to teach. They are the child's first teacher. You're assuming "the state" knows better for all parents. 

How do you think they became parents.

In some republican states because they got raped.

[kallend 1,822]

12 hours ago, BIGUN said:

Then teach the parents what to teach. They are the child's first teacher. You're assuming "the state" knows better for all parents. 

 

"The state" doesn't know anything.  People know things.  Teachers are people who, in general, know how to teach stuff.

[richravizza 26]

On 7/23/2024 at 1:49 PM, kallend said:

"The state" doesn't know anything.  People know things.  Teachers are people who, in general, know how to teach stuff.

I Agree, but The State is responsible for the stuff they teach.

 Have you have ever visited libs of tick tock, teacher's edition. The creator went through hell, seems a prerequisite for a First Advocate.The irony of simply reposting what the teacher people are teaching/ posting. Give them Freedom, Liberty and voila.... all the rope they need. LOL 

On 7/23/2024 at 7:08 AM, BIGUN said:

And there you have it.

  That 30 sec.video, may just have formed a consensus,actually It was all You, Bravo Sir. This has got to be a first! 

Want to take a shot at AB 1955 ? LOL

[SkyDekker 1,288]

14 hours ago, richravizza said:

 Have you have ever visited libs of tick tock, teacher's edition.

What possibly makes you think that 20 second edited videos are accurate representations of reality?