Stunts; pissing on our sport to make money.

[diablopilot 2]

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I fail to see how currency or lack of it, contributed to this skydive in any way. He jumped with a tandem the week before and had a successful dock (twice) with the student, so he obviously has some skills,

Because it sets a poor example for skydivers.

AT 250 jumps no manufacturer, nor does the USPA recommend he jump with tandems period.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[billvon 2,379]

> He's a professional athlete that pushes the envelope, and does so with
>as much (if not more) consideration and training than some of the people
>revered within our community.

Such a description was recently applied to a low-experienced wingsuiter in Utah. It's great that he's accomplished in other sports, but the ground does not always respect those accomplishments.

[DSE 3]

Give us a break~!
Jumping without a rig does not "set a poor example for skydivers."
It sets an example for stuntmen, and that's about the only example it sets. There are probably at least 100 chuteless jumps over the past 3 decades; have they caused a significant rise in the number of people jumping without rigs? Do Greg Gasson's stunts cause people to burn their mains? Hang from their harness? Have Jay Stokes' record-setting numbers caused a wave of "I wanna jump 700 times in 24 hours" events? Do we see hundreds of jumpers leaping or hooking the edge of the Grand Canyon like the PD team did? How many wingsuits-chasing-ultra-small-canopies do we see every week? Are BASE jumpers rushing out to copy Scott Smith's slingshot stunt?

Can you honestly say that in every aspect of your skydiving career, you've strictly adhered to the rules of the road at every opportunity? Never once jumped with someone bending/breaking rules, thus vicariously supporting their actions?

[cutter29 0]

WOW this is knee deep in hypocricy. Spot go back and read your posts in the "should minimums apply to me thread".....

Oh wait in this case the guy is famous

[DSE 3]

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WOW this is knee deep in hypocricy. Spot go back and read your posts in the "should minimums apply to me thread".....

Oh wait in this case the guy is famous

Could you demonstrate the minimums for "skydiving without a parachute?" I've searched the SIM top to bottom, can't find a recommendation for "recommended minimum for skydiving without a parachute" and/or other stunts.
I'm wagering Travis has put a lot more planning, preparation, coaching, and $$ behind this stunt for EXPN than any jump(s) typically undertaken by skydivers. Having seen the team he brought in for a simple stunt at the Larry Miller Raceway last month, it may be that the rig-less jump was anti-climatic compared to the training.
If you're talking about his skydive with a friend under tandem, sure...he probably shouldn't have been there at 250 skydives. Having seen him fly, I was OK with it, the DZO and DZM were OK with it, and the TI was OK with it.
On the other hand, he probably hasn't buzzed a tandem while wearing a wingsuit and 100 skydives, nor landed on someone else' open canopy. He didn't become famous and talented by being frivolous and unsafe.

[catfishhunter 1]

WOW this thread has gotten crazy. I'll add my 2 bits. Did anyone see who made the jump with him? MX on Video Scott (Plamer) Palmer and Timmy McMasters. I know Plamer and Timmy. Plamer was on the Head Down World record (does that mean he has skillz?) Timmy would have been and should have been on the world record but F'd himself up wrestling with a buddy Plamer has taken numerous family members of mine on Tandems and Timmy well Timmy has been a natural since day one and is a incredible tunnel flyer/coach and to this day his docking on my back in a sit/stand then surfing me (we had a couple hundred jumps each at the time) is still one of my all time fav jumps.

Travis did not have rookies with him. The crew that was with him where not only capable they where extraordinary and I would put my life in their hands ANY DAY.

This was a Stunt that KICKED ASS. It was well planned and well trained for and frankly alot less dangerous with alot more margin for error then a Double Backflip

Hell it's just skydiving.. Relax...

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.

[billvon 2,379]

>Could you demonstrate the minimums for "skydiving without a parachute?"

There is none. There are also no minimums for doing a 400-way, or flying a rigid wing, or becoming a wingsuit instructor, or making a jump from 42,000 feet without bailout oxygen, or serving as a safety jumper for a stunt.

However, it would be somewhat foolish for people with 250 jumps to do any of the above - even if they are world champion NASCAR drivers (for example.) Most of those recommendations/minimums were written in blood; I hope we're not preparing to write another one the same way.

[MakeItHappen 15]

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Could you demonstrate the minimums for "skydiving without a parachute?"

Here's the SIM stuff:

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SIM 2.B. Waivers and changes to the BSRs

1. Also included in this section, waivers to the BSRs describe procedures for approving and documenting exceptions to the BSRs.

a. Waivers provide for the responsible development of new techniques and methods.

b. The BSRs are designed to establish safety standards for common situations; however, local circumstances may allow for greater tolerance in some cases.

c. The purpose for filing a waiver is to document that the particular BSR has been evaluated in the individual case and that the prescribed deviation and conditions do not represent an unacceptable compromise of safety.

d. waiverability

(1) Each BSR is categorized as either waiverable or non-waiverable.

(2) Those that are waiverable are categorized according to who may file the waiver.

2. The BSRs are changed from time to time by the USPA Board of Directors as equipment and practices develop and evolve.

SIM 2-1.B. Compliance with Federal regulations [NW] <-- This means non-waiverable.

1. No skydive may be made in violation of Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) regulations.

Here's the FAR stuff:

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Sec. 105.43 Use of single-harness, dual-parachute systems

No person may conduct a parachute operation using a single-harness, dual-parachute system, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow any person to conduct a parachute operation from that aircraft using a single-harness, dual-parachute system, unless that system has at least one main parachute, one approved reserve parachute, and one approved single person harness and container that are packed as follows:

(a) The main parachute must have been packed within 120 days before the date of its use by a certificated parachute rigger, the person making the next jump with that parachute, or a non-certificated person under the direct supervision of a certificated parachute rigger.

(b) The reserve parachute must have been packed by a certificated parachute rigger-

(1) Within 120 days before the date of its use, if its canopy, shroud, and harness are composed exclusively of nylon, rayon, or similar synthetic fiber or material that is substantially resistant to damage from mold, mildew, and other fungi, and other rotting agents propagated in a moist environment; or

(2) Within 60 days before the date of its use, if it is composed of any amount of silk, pongee, or other natural fiber, or material not specified in paragraph (b)(1) of this section.

(c) If installed, the automatic activation device must be maintained in accordance with manufacturer instructions for that automatic activation device.

Sec. 105.45 Use of tandem parachute systems

(a) No person may conduct a parachute operation using a tandem parachute system, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow any person to conduct a parachute operation from that aircraft using a tandem parachute system, unless--

(2) The person acting as parachutist in command:

(i) Has briefed the passenger parachutist before boarding the aircraft. The briefing must include the procedures to be used in case of an emergency with the aircraft or after exiting the aircraft, while preparing to exit and exiting the aircraft, freefall, operating the parachute after freefall, landing approach, and landing.

(ii) Uses the harness position prescribed by the manufacturer of the tandem parachute equipment.

I do not know if the FAA gave approval of this jump. I highly doubt it.
I do know that USPA was not contacted about a waiver and none was given by USPA. The jump was done at a USPA GM DZ.
BTW, USPA cannot grant waivers to the FARs either.

Re claim of "There are probably at least 100 chuteless jumps over the past 3 decades"
Rod Pack Jan 1, 1965
Bill Cole - two some place in eastern US
Jimmy Tyler - two in Mexico (because they could not do it legally in the US)
Andi Dachtler - Aug 2007 Germany (or someplace in Europe)
I have also heard stories that Patrick DeGayren (sp) did some post-exit hook ups with someone that was the chuteless-dummy. They supposedly did a handful of them, until on the last attempt, Patrick could not hook up with the guy. The chuteless one went in. I think these took place in France.

Greg Gasson's jumps were not chuteless. He was attached to the parachute system.
Movie scenes depicting chuteless jumps were all 'Hollywood'. They were faked - hidden rigs etc.

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[cutter29 0]

wingsuit with less then 200 jumps? guilty. buzzing with 100 jumps. negative. opening closer to tandem then the TI was comfortable with. once. yes (his airspace, my fault. pulled below him. never heard of a malfunction causing gain in alt. but his airspace my fault) never hit open canopy. wrong guy.
camera less then min? yup paid at same dz and numbers as you started with.

My list of faults is many and open. my point is spot needs to get off his high horse. i'm sick of reading post that contradict himself depending on who is involved. maybe a little less name dropping at the dz and more practice not deploying your parachute out the door of the plane while still in it?

[squarecanopy 0]

Hey Spot, stick to your guns!
I have thought alot about this and read through almost every one of the posts in this thread. I agree with you and can't really see what all the fervor is about...
Pastrana would have been dead a long time ago except that he is blessed with a load of God given talent; he has built upon his successes one step at a time with planning and skill; and he is totally into all kinds of high end dangerous activities that "crosstrain" him for the other activities/stunts. He is today at a place that I for one appreciate and am more than a little envious of because he can do damn near any of the things he tries with a minimum of stretching himself compared to the rest of us who spend our time earning a living different from him.

Just burning a hole in the sky.....

[catfishhunter 1]

Ummm wasn't it just a couple years ago that 200 jumps got you a D License and meant you was an expert? Wasn't 200 a pretty big deal? 250 jumps is quite a lot or have you all forgotten that?

I think some of you have got on this jump number kit because you where so vocal about jump numbers in the incident threads and now you HAVE to tow the line. Well 250 jumps is NOT 100 and 250 jumps for a proffessional stuntman with over 100 base jumps is well A FRIGGEN LOT.

Beat a different horse guys your losing credibillty

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.

[diablopilot 2]

Credibility?

Please, I am tired of hearing how it should be done from 10 minute wonders in this sport. I have spent YEARS of my life spending every minute of a day on the DZ, seen all that can go wrong and then some, carried more broken, and mangled people off the DZ, held the loved ones of those that didn't make it. I have made it my job to train people to be successful and safe skydivers, only to have yahoos the likes of you tell them "It's ok, you're better than everyone else, go ahead."

200 jumps is NOTHING. It's 6 months in the sport now. 200 Jumps meant something when it took YEARS of being at the DZ, becoming part of the community, and learning from the mistakes others made, before you make them yourself. 500 jumps is a glimmer of what you've gotten yourself into.

Why is it I keep hearing the same bullshit from Utah/New Mexico/Colorado jumpers? Why do the old salts all travel elsewhere to jump now? Why have I heard more than one incident of a low time jumper from that region fucking them selves because they were "too goods" for the minimums?

Where is your instructional rating? What makes you so sure you know how to advise someone as to what they are qualified for, or decide who is good enough to exceed the standards? When was the last time you felt another human's last heart beat, or heard them take their last breath?

STFU now, check your Gucci attitude, and think just a little more before you question the credibility of jumpers that have put in the effort to further safety in this glorious sport.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[catfishhunter 1]

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have spent YEARS of my life spending every minute of a day on the DZ,

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200 Jumps meant something when it took YEARS of being at the DZ

So if it took him years to get to 200 then you'd sing a different tune?

What is your post about? It took you forever to get to where you are and some yahoo famous stunt guy with more talent and success then you will ever hope to have goes and perfoms a KICK ASS stunt and now your mad?

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Where is your instructional rating? What makes you so sure you know how to advise someone as to what they are qualified for, or decide who is good enough to exceed the standards? When was the last time you felt another human's last heart beat, or heard them take their last breath

WTF does that have to do with anyting I said? I wouldn't and didn't advise anyone so you got things mixed up bro.

Oh and Gucci attitude LMFAO@U Bro gucci is as far away from my attitude as you can get. I'm as Blue collar as they get.

You need to pick another battle for your soap box the Preaching on THIS PARTICULAR STUNT and referencing jump numbers does loose credibillity because jump numbers don't have a thing to do with this STUNT

My Suggestion is first back up and figure out just what makes you mad about this then post. If he broke the law then all should accept the outcome but YOU do not get to decide that and it takes nothing away from this being a Kick Ass stunt performed by some Kick Ass folks. Other wise as you said STFU

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.

[diablopilot 2]

Dude, you wouldn't get it with a flashlight, mirror, and a week alone in a small windowless room, so I'm just not gonna bother anymore.....

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[catfishhunter 1]

No I get it. And I hope one day you do to and get help but the first step is admitting you have a problem you can overcome it.

Seriously do you really think this STUNT is the right place for the jump numbers debate? If you really believe that then stick to your guns but for me those that choose to beat that drum truly loose credibility with me. Sounds more like wanting to hear ones self Proclaim their superior intelligence and all that disagree are to be damned to eternal hell fire...

it's only skydiving and this was only A PROFESSIONAL STUNT and the two are NOT the same like it or not.

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.

[boozy 0]

I'm going to have to agree with JP on this one. This stunt sets a terrible example for students and low time jumpers. Almost every single weekend that goes by one of my AFF students will refer to some retarded stunt and ask "so, how do I plan something like this?" and I have to spend 10 extra minutes explaining why whatever they are talking about is a dumb ass idea. These students usually don't make it through AFF, they are no doubt disappointed with not being able to BASE jump on day two, and by day three jump out over their house, landing in the party their moron friends are having. I personally don't want people like that in the sport, they are coming into it for all the wrong reasons.

This stunt has been done, it's been done many times I'll bet, so it is only 'kick ass' to somebody that's been in the sport for a few minutes. I have been on a jump with Travis P. and he can barely land a canopy. Sounds like just the right time to start stunting to me because after all he's a pro motocross racer, he can totally handle this pussy sport, right? Oh and he has BASE jumps too, and why not, he put in his 20 skydives before hand, he is totally ready!

[yeyo 1]

100 jumps or 987457 jumps. Theres something very important here that many are not considering. That is his experience doing 'extreme' stuff...
When he landed I told him 'good job!' and his answer was "nah, i just stood there, my crew did a great job!". Then I said "ok, so good mental job"
Thats the difference with him. Hes mentally prepared to do 'extreme' stuff and keep his cool. 40 years in the sport and many 1000s of jumps wont give you that. So forget bout jump numbers, the important preparation for this stunt has nothing to do with it.

...you all can now continue with the soap opera

HISPA #93
DS #419.5

[diablopilot 2]

"Extreme experience" does not always translate. In fact it rarely translates.

Being to comfortable with the effects of adrenilin can often lead a person to under estimate danger.

Travis obviously did well on the stunt, or we would be reading a much different thread right now, but the overall stunt and the skydiving experience he brought to the table sets a poor example.

Some of the worlds best have died doing "stunts".

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[diablopilot 2]

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Do Greg Gasson's stunts cause people to burn their mains?

I'm pretty sure that was Troy Hartman's stunt. Who BTW is a PROFESIONAL. Why? Because he has the experience to back it up.

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Have Jay Stokes' record-setting numbers caused a wave of "I wanna jump 700 times in 24 hours" events?

Yep. Several people did smaller scale (50 jumps in a day, 75 jumps in a day) fund raisers not long afer jumping on the success of Jay's record.

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Do we see hundreds of jumpers leaping or hooking the edge of the Grand Canyon like the PD team did?

The Grand Canyon? No. Most can afford a 182 to fly out there for them, but we do see it's effects on the DZ. Low time swoopers getting into swooping objects, the rash of GL injuries.

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How many wingsuits-chasing-ultra-small-canopies do we see every week?

Maybe not a 39 but 20 jump winsuit pilots assuming they can do it with Tandems.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[yarak 0]

human nature to push the limits. Experience in other extreme sports definately helps in skydiving.

I say its a free country.......If you have the balls, commitment, and ability to plan a stunt like that then go for it!

Who cares what the general public thinks. I dont skydive for them. I skydive for my own sastifaction.

As far as examples for other skydivers goes who cares. Any skydiver knows the danger involved in that stunt. If they want to accept that risk, its there decision. Dont forget, pushing limits is what opens the doors to progression and new technology.

I'll huff and I'll puff and I'll burn your fucking packing tent down.

[diablopilot 2]

Spoken like someone who has never taught anyone how to skydive. Or seen another die in person.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[catfishhunter 1]

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Spoken like someone who has never taught anyone how to skydive. Or seen another die in person.

What does that have to do with this thread? And why are you seeing SO MANY people die? That should be more disturbing then this STUNT. My home DZ hsa only had 1 fatallity in 15 years and that was a Tandem that to this day I haven't heard of any answer that explains why and doubt it can be explained other then it was God's Will(and yes i was there) So why are so mamy people ending up dead around you? Do you think maybe you should be worried about the people ending up dead around you and stop worrying about proffessional stuntmen who plan and execute out of the ordinary stunts?

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.

[diablopilot 2]

You don't know why the Tandem fatality happened or you choose not to hear the reason?

http://www.dropzone.com/fatalities/Detailed/139.shtml

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[raymond_jones 0]

this is not a direct reply to your post.........
i think if someone decides to jump from a plane without a chute and rely on someone else to save them then good for them. personally, i think it's fucking retarded. yeah ill watch the damn video, say its cool all day long here on DZ dot com, and state he has a set of brass balls the size of a globe, but when it comes down to it, it's fucking stupid. trained stuntman or rich sponsered show off, who really cares. people push skydiving and sports to the extreme limits everyday, and ppl watch and bitch, complain and condone all their actions. fortunally this stunt turned out good, but will he do it every time from here on out? will 10,000 skydivers try it next year? should we all stare at the video in awe? probablly not. reguardless, I thoink a failed attempt would have gotten more publicity and higher video sales and downloads. maybe next time.

"your the shit till you eat it !!!!!!!! damn that wall hurts..."

[catfishhunter 1]

That I knew but were you there? Did you know there was NO wind that day. NONE NADA ZIP except for that gust that brought them out of the sky. Thats what I meant. They had been flying that pattern for a very long time (they no longer land in that area). So no I still don't know why on that day 1 died and one lived and many other peoples lives changed other then it was god's Will. A gear failure is a reason, hooking yourself in is a reason a rougue gust of wind....it's the you can do everything right and still die thing... so if you want to get picky yeah I know what the report said but no I don't know why it happened and and since no one can be sure why they removed the possibillity of it ever having a chance to repeat itself.

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.