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Chelseaflies

Is landing downwind dangerous?

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Chelseaflies

Excuse me, haha, only on jump 14 so still don't know much! I landed downwind today and my JM got really angry at me for it. Is it dangerous? Also, why are winds over fourteen miles per hour considered dangerous to students?



Yes it can be. But turning too low can be even more dangerous.

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As a student its important you land as slowly as possible, until you develop the skills to handle landings...

Downwinders mean you are going a lot faster horizontally, and cover a lot more ground, and if you hit something it is gonna hurt a lot more.

Downwinders are not inherently dangerous unless you run into something.

And thats why you have wind limits as a student.....higher winds mean you can cover a lot more distance under canopy and means the chances of an out landing are much higher.

Demand your JM explain this to you, simply getting angry is not the mark of a good JM.

Was this not covered during your training?. It should have been.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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all landings are dangerous

learning how to land any direction is important

one reason winds over 14 are dangerous for students is because they might screw up and land downwind, then they wouldn't be students anymore, they would be accidents or worse

another reason over 14 mph is dangerous is because the canopy students use is normally "oversized" for safety, other bad stuff can happen, ask your instructor to explain it

I will stop now because Popsjumper will fill in the rest :)
Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws.

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Chelseaflies

Excuse me, haha, only on jump 14 so still don't know much! I landed downwind today and my JM got really angry at me for it. Is it dangerous? Also, why are winds over fourteen miles per hour considered dangerous to students?



Why did you land downwind?

If you decided to land downwind intentionally against the landing pattern of everyone else on the load landing into wind and without telling anyone else then yes, dangerous. A bit like driving the wrong way down a freeway.

I imagine that's not the case and there was some other reason that you could plan your landing better next time.

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I swoop them on radio assistance... it is never to early to trust your rears.

"left turn left turn.... deep brakes deep brakes... let them up... surge surge surge... double fronts... roll your shoulder.... let them up.... rear risers.... hold it... hold it... FLARE!"

;)

It was mentioned already, but a low turn is almost almost more dangerous than landing down wind.

The difference is that you can roll and tumble horizontally with much more impunity, than you can bounce off the ground vertically. And if you turn too low to recover that is what you will do, bounce your body against the ground.

So you read the windsock wrong, your are hauling ass, now what?

Well I can tell you two strategies that don't work. One is to bury a toggle to turn into the wind and smash yourself into tera firma. The other is to freak out and fixate on the ground that is whipping between your feat so much that you forget to flare.

Flare, slide, or tumble and roll... and then plan better for next time!
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

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Chelseaflies

I landed downwind today and my JM got really angry at me for it. Is it dangerous?



What were you taught?

What are your landing priorities? Is landing direction one of them?
"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

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Andrea yells at me for downwinders.



That's because you specifically told me you were NOT doing a downwinder before we boarded the plane. Hence, you hosed me. :P
She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man,
because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon

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I did not hose you!

Sorry about the humidity that fogged you up.
Good thing you have better eye sight than I do too.
:):D


OMG the conditions were soooo perfect, landing area all to myself.....I couldn't help it baby. One of my longest swoops ever!!!! B|

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JackC1

Your priorities for landing, in order of importance, are:
1) Wing level
2) into a clear and open area
3) flare evenly
4) into wind if possible

Don't sacrifice any of the first 3 just so you can meet the 4th.



Not in the SIM it isn't:

The SIM

11. Priorities for all landings

a. Land with the wing level and flying in a straight line.

b. Land in a clear and open area, avoiding obstacles.

c. Flare to at least the half-brake position.

d. Always be prepared to make a PLF.


"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

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Landing downwind is harder than landing into the wind, so yes, it's more dangerous.
My guess is that your instructor was troubled that you didn't know which way the wind was blowing more than that you downwinded it. As others have said, a radical low turn is more dangerous than a downwind.
The reason for the 14 MPH wind limit for students is the fact that student canopies are generally large, docile and slow.
Landing a canopy that is moving backwards relative to the ground is not a good thing. Jumping in winds that you cannot move forward relative to the ground is not a good thing.
This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

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Landing down wind is more dangerous indeed, simply because of speed at which you come in at.
imagine stepping off a moving car at 30mph, what do you think will happen to you? rest assured you wont be laughing after it.B|
however it can be done but you are no way near the expirience to able to judge that.
I am not sure what caused you to land downwind in the first place, could you give us a reason? misread windsock? winds changed? or just for the hell of it and to piss of your instructor or jumpmaster? or was it because you wanted to try something different and did not know better?

but always remember the Golden Rules for Landing

1.WINGS LEVEL
2. Into CLEAR AREA with out OBSTACLES.
3. FLARE EVENLY
4. Preferably into WIND.
5. FEET+KNEES together and be ready for PLF

Rodger

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Well, now you have three different versions of your landing priorities so I am sure everything is as clear as mud.

Back to "ask your instructors", I think.....
"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

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It is good that it isn't all about landing into the wind these days.

On the other hand, it is hard to create priority lists that provide a proper flowchart or basis for making decisions, given the complex interplay of factors. A jumper has to get a feel for the interplay of factors, because it'll take too long to parse the logic of the list otherwise.

Just using one of the priority lists (without trying to say it is better or worse than others):
Quote

Your priorities for landing, in order of importance, are:
1) Wing level
2) into a clear and open area
3) flare evenly
4) into wind if possible



For example, this makes it sound like I'd rather fly into a building with wings level, than be in a small flared turn to avoid it. Yet it is true that I'd rather flare nicely into a tree canopy, rather than hook in to avoid the tree.

One can't forget that even if landing upwind is a low priority when there's an emergency situation to avoid (eg, bad obstacles), and a low priority compared to creating your own emergency (eg, landing in a steep turn or no flare), it is still something of a priority in normal landings. After all most places still have jumpers landing upwind, and people seem to want to avoid canopy collisions too.

Even if I were a newbie, I don't think I'd be popular if I flew to a crosswind landing through an Otter load full of people landing upwind -- and then said "But the SIM doesn't even list landing into wind as a priority in the basic Cat. A information".

(Well, it doesn't in the list DocPop found for us from Cat. A. However, half a page earlier the SIM does say "Landing into (against) the wind is desirable, but not absolutely necessary", so landing upwind isn't totally ignored.)

So I'll use the lists as starting points for discussion but not as an absolute hierarchy of priorities.

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I do, of course agree with you about the dangers of going against the pattern, but I was using the SIM's list for Cat A to illustrate that there is no reason why a downwind landing cannot be achieved safely, even for a Cat A jumper.

On the other hand, expecting a Cat A jumper to execute a flare turn to avoid a building is quite a stretch, and is more likely to result in a last-minute jab at one toggle. Hell, they do that when they are trying to land straight - as do jumpers with hundreds of jump (subsequently claiming that a gust of wind blew them!).
"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

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I think the landing "priority list" when I started was simply:

Don't hit the ground at the same time your canopy does... and don't toggle whip yourself into the ground...

And if you have to downwind it, don't tumble and front-flip through your lines because it annoys your packer. :P
NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

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Thanks for all the information guys, super helpful!
I landed downwind due to a misread wind sock. Luckily we were put on hold in the plane after everyone else already jumped so there was no one else landing when I was-- downwind. Although my instructor was quite angry at me, afterwards he told me he was very surprised I managed to land exactly where I was planning and didn't even have to PLF. He also told me he was going to increase how windy it can be when I jump, 15/16 possibly even 17 knots.

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my instructor was quite angry at me,



Quote

He also told me he was going to increase how windy it can be when I jump,



If I met your instructor, I think I would have a few things to say to him.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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